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Old 02-14-2014, 07:15   #21
uzimon
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Good thread. I have a 21 and 30s and cant afford 50c/rd and tula is hard to find at wm
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Old 02-14-2014, 07:37   #22
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Originally Posted by AustinTx View Post
#1. I don't put such a drastic bell on the case mouth, that it needs much straightening out. Just enough to get the bullet started, in the case without messing up the bullet or case. It would feed alright even if it wasn't run through any sort of crimp die.

#2. A tamper crimp will indeed, crimp the case mouth, if it's set up right. That's why it's called a taper CRIMP die. If it's applied properly, it will impress a chamfer (bevel) around the case mouth.

#3. You can remove the bell, from the case mouth with either a tamper or roll crimp die. Just don't screw it down as far. The amount of crimp that you apply (or don't apply) IS adjustable.

#4 You can load your 45 Colt cases any way you want to, but mine don't allow the bullets to jack out, from recoil, if taper crimped. BTW, no such thing as 45 Long Colt, but there was a 45 short Colt, at one time. The army bought them because they only wanted 28 gr of powder.
What I was saying you answered in your own #3.
Also if you care to do some little research you will find that 45 Colt can also referred to as 45 Long Colt. And what I was referring to was that he used a longer case for his experiment.
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Old 02-14-2014, 09:11   #23
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I agree with everything else you posted there. There's no reason a roll crimp can't be used on those rimmed cartridges. I will repeat a little history, though."
Yes, a roll crimp COULD be used but I prefer to just close the case mouth with a taper crimp die. Besides, there's no cannelure on a bullet that is seated flush with the casemouth. I'm only putting 2.7 gr of Bullseye in these things, I wouldn't want the crimp adding any inconsistency. These are being shot out of a S&W Model 52 and, a long time ago, I could hold the X ring at 25 yards, off-hand. Nice ammo... They also worked well in a Colt Python 6" that I was dumb enough to sell.

As to the belling operation: Dillon recommends 0.020" of belling in one of their User Manuals. That seems like a lot and I suspect I bell a little closer to 0.010", maybe just a tad more. They will definitely NOT chamber without having the bell removed.

The bell needs to be big enough to hold the bullet in place and not shave off any lead. It's even more critical for plated bullets. For jacketed bullets, I suspect the belling could be reduced. After all, we don't bell rifle cases at all. Many times, rifle cases aren't crimped either...

But changing the bell operation between jacketed and lead bullets just isn't going to happen around here. That adjustment on a Dillon powder measure is more effort than it's worth. I got it set once, I'll just leave it alone.

Everybody has their own ways. As long as the bullets go where they are intended and the pressures are safe, the process has a lot of room for variation.

Richard
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Last edited by F106 Fan; 02-14-2014 at 09:23..
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Old 02-14-2014, 09:20   #24
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Originally Posted by uzimon View Post
Good thread. I have a 21 and 30s and cant afford 50c/rd and tula is hard to find at wm
Part of the reason for the popularity of the .45 ACP threads is that all of the very long time reloaders have been shooting it for decades. Back in the early '80s, most handgun action shooting was done with a 1911 and several of the folks on this forum were there.

The 9mm of the time was pretty underwhelming and, IIRC, wasn't really all that popular. The 'minor caliber' penalty was considered severe enough to drive most shooters to the .45. A nice shooting 200 gr LSWC made great big holes for easier scoring.

The .40 S&W hadn't even been invented and wouldn't come into prominence for another decade or more.

I think the .40 S&W is more popular than it should be simply because of the "LEOs use it, so should I" mentality. To be fair, for a given frame size, .40 guns will carry more rounds than a .45. That's important if you plan to miss!

Richard
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Old 02-14-2014, 09:52   #25
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I agree with a lot of what's been said, I am a "minimal bell" guy, but I do screw up some cases now and then. I was loading some 200gr GDHP's I had sitting around the other night and apparently the case I grabbed to adjust the bell die was the longest case haha. I ended up screwing up 2 before readjusting the die. On plated bullets its easy to screw up the case and bullet if you don't bell enough. And unless you are going to trim every case to the same length you will end up with some a variance in the belling.

As for "crimping", I set my seating/crimping die (I don't use a seperate die) to where I end up with .470-.472 after crimping useing .451 bullets. Doesn't smash the plated bullets, I have no setback, and they feed good. I tried the bullet + case X2, but my cases very quite a bit, especially on 45 gap.
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:41   #26
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Originally Posted by AustinTx View Post
II don't crimp them, just straighten the case wall.

.
That is taper crimping, the amount is the only variable.
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Old 02-14-2014, 14:33   #27
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That is taper crimping, the amount is the only variable.
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Old 02-14-2014, 14:56   #28
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Maybe semantics, but when someone tells me they don't crimp at all, I envision a belled case with a bullet seated in it & that is it. IME, that rarely if ever works.
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Old 02-14-2014, 15:23   #29
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Maybe semantics, but when someone tells me they don't crimp at all, I envision a belled case with a bullet seated in it & that is it. IME, that rarely if ever works.
Nope not at all Fred. PM sent.
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Old 02-15-2014, 08:56   #30
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That is taper crimping, the amount is the only variable.
fredj338, you're a real hardcase!
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Old 02-15-2014, 09:33   #31
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Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
Yes, a roll crimp COULD be used but I prefer to just close the case mouth with a taper crimp die. Besides, there's no cannelure on a bullet that is seated flush with the casemouth. I'm only putting 2.7 gr of Bullseye in these things, I wouldn't want the crimp adding any inconsistency. These are being shot out of a S&W Model 52 and, a long time ago, I could hold the X ring at 25 yards, off-hand. Nice ammo... They also worked well in a Colt Python 6" that I was dumb enough to sell.

As to the belling operation: Dillon recommends 0.020" of belling in one of their User Manuals. That seems like a lot and I suspect I bell a little closer to 0.010", maybe just a tad more. They will definitely NOT chamber without having the bell removed.

The bell needs to be big enough to hold the bullet in place and not shave off any lead. It's even more critical for plated bullets. For jacketed bullets, I suspect the belling could be reduced. After all, we don't bell rifle cases at all. Many times, rifle cases aren't crimped either...


Richard
Richard, I'm glad you know what's going on here. But, there is a cannalure (of sorts), on a bullet seated with the case mouth. It's the top end of the bullet and can be rolled or tapered. That's how earlier wadcutters were crimped, with a roll crimp.

Your experience has been with progressive presses and I don't like them because I just don't trust them. I don't need that quantity of ammo anyway. If I competed, it would be a different story. I reload for the purpose of trying different bullets and loads.

Rifle cases don't need to be belled because rifle sizing dies have an expander ball, to set the ID of the case mouth.

I have always tended to use the least amount of bell, in the case mouth to reduce working of the brass to a minimum.

For your light loaded bullets seated to the case mouth, you may get better consistency (accuracy), by not crimping the case, but very lightly, if at all. I don't think your light load would allow the bullets to jack out. That depends on the mass of your gun though and the ID of the case mouth provided with your sizing die. In the 1950s the Air Force bought some aluminum frame 2" barrel pistols and the recoil would tie those guns up sometime.

I reload 38 Spl.. 357 S&W Mag., 44 S&W Mag, 9mm Luger, 45 ACP, 223 Rem., 243 win., 30-06 and 454 Casull.

I shot some commercial Remington 45 ACP, in a Glock 21 and it bulged the cases so bad, they couldn't even be forced into a sizing die. That chamber was ridiculously large. I got rid of that Glock 21.
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Old 02-15-2014, 09:57   #32
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Thanks again for all the tips! Have decided to purchase a Redding 3 die set with taper crimp die and will use my Winchester white box brass for starters. After performing some research have decided to order some Berry's plated 230 round nose bullets and load with 4.6 grains of Bullseye powder - will measure my factory white box Winchester 230 grain ammo and use this to determine my initial overall cartridge length.


Sound reasonable?


Thanks!
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Old 02-15-2014, 10:29   #33
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Thanks again for all the tips! Have decided to purchase a Redding 3 die set with taper crimp die and will use my Winchester white box brass for starters. After performing some research have decided to order some Berry's plated 230 round nose bullets and load with 4.6 grains of Bullseye powder - will measure my factory white box Winchester 230 grain ammo and use this to determine my initial overall cartridge length.


Sound reasonable?


Thanks!

You had me right up to the OAL.

With handgun loading and fast powders (BE is a fast powder), OAL is determined by two factors, first the minimum OAL which you get from the published load data and then function in your gun. So with BE, go to Alliant's web site and get their OAL in their load data for 230gr jacketed (it will likely be 230gr TMJ RN data). Even though you are well below their max charge for 230gr jacketed, it is still a good idea to observe their minimum OAL in the load spec. You can load longer, as long as your gun/magazine will tolerate, just not shorter.

If the OAL in your factory ammo falls between these minimum and maximums for your gun, and they feed reliably, then by all means use that OAL, just don't start with that number before checking the published load data for the powder and bullet you are loading for the minimum number.

FWIW, I load 230gr RN bullets to 1.265" with BE all the way to max load.

Have fun, you are on the right track.

Last edited by WeeWilly; 02-15-2014 at 10:43..
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Old 02-15-2014, 10:37   #34
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I shot some commercial Remington 45 ACP, in a Glock 21 and it bulged the cases so bad, they couldn't even be forced into a sizing die. That chamber was ridiculously large. I got rid of that Glock 21.
Maybe your G21 barrel was already leaded up from shooting cast lead reloads? Lots of us reload for our .45acp Glocks and have no problem reusing/resizing our brass.
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Old 02-16-2014, 18:06   #35
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Maybe your G21 barrel was already leaded up from shooting cast lead reloads? Lots of us reload for our .45acp Glocks and have no problem reusing/resizing our brass.
It was a brand NEW G21, in 1999. Those Remington rounds were the first shot in that gun. I shot some of the same ammo, in a Colt 1911 and it showed absolutely no bulge or any other pressure signs. Glock just used too much chamber slop, in the earlier guns. The KBs that I've seen have been blowouts, at the 6 o'clock chamber position of 40 S&W guns. From pics, posted here on GT, the 40 S&W chambers seem to show more chamber support, in 40 S&W than the earlier guns.

Not a problem, though. I like the ballistics of the 357 SIG and 40 S&W better, now.
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