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Old 06-16-2014, 01:51   #1
mixflip
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open carry lesson learned from the LV shooting

We have gone back and forth over the conceal carry lessons but what lessons can we learn from the "open carry" aspect of this horrible situation?

I know many feel open carry gives you a faster response time because there is no clothing to clear when you draw.

I know many feel open carry is a deterrent. Bad guy sees there is an armed citizen in the store and changes his mind. Bad guy looks for softer targets.

I know many feel open carriers are at a tactical disadvantage because the bad guy (or guy's) know who to shoot first. Open carry makes you a walking billboard that says "hey shoot me first". No element of surprise for the OC'er.

I know some people feel open carriers like the attention and/or the intimidation factor. When they walk into a business they like how everyone looks right at them. It makes them feel special. Its a stroke to the ego.

Some feel open carry didn't deter the killers and the element of surprise of conceal carry didn't stop the killers. Both have their pros and cons...if its your time to go its your time to go...just carry period.Or dont carry at all, just rely on avoidance and awareness.


Do you think the LV ambush strengthens or weakens the open carry discussion?

Last edited by mixflip; 06-16-2014 at 02:00..
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Old 06-16-2014, 01:55   #2
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I presume the cops were in their standard uniform and they were open carrying, and it appears that it wasn't a deterrent to the killers. The lone guy who got killed in the Walmart had a CCW, so I presume he was carrying concealed. His gun wasn't a deterrent either.

Quite simply, if someone wants you dead, you're going to die, period, end of discussion.

I truly believe there is no right or wrong answer, one isn't better than the other. They both have their perks, they both have their negative sides as well. I believe that it truly comes down to each individual's decision as to what they themselves feel is better, and not which one is actually better.
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Old 06-16-2014, 02:01   #3
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I would like to know the amount of tactical training or competition he had, or was the well-meaning guy just a paper puncher twice a year? That should mean a lot to concealed carriers.
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Old 06-16-2014, 02:03   #4
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I would like to know the amount of tactical training or competition he had, or was the well-meaning guy just a paper puncher twice a year? That should mean a lot to concealed carriers.
The 10+/- year veteran cops had lots of tactical training. One turns out was a firearms instructor and both most likely had MACTAC training.

Thats a lot of tactical training under their belts. Im almost certain Wilcox was not a firearms instructor nor took any LVMPD MACTAC training.

This is another topic of discussion. They trained and Wilcox probably trained very little and both died.

In case someone asks = (MACTAC multi assault counter terrorism action capable) Its techniques developed in response to the Mumbai India massacres since Vegas has a huge cluster of hotels like Mumbai.

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Old 06-16-2014, 02:26   #5
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Huge difference when you're in code white eating (which you should never be) and jumping into code red when you do not have the training or mindset for it. I'm sure he meant well, but was simply not prepared.
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Old 06-16-2014, 03:39   #6
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AZ Husker, has your opinion of "open carry" changed?
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Old 06-16-2014, 04:34   #7
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Sometimes the best you can do is just to die well.



Good gear and good training all give an advantage, then you still might loose. A lot of it is just luck. I'm strongly guessing that open carry vs concealed carry didn't make any difference at all in this case. I another case open carry would be an advantage, in yet another case concealed carry would be an advantage. And sometimes it just doesn't matter when the badguys partner shoots you in the back.
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Old 06-16-2014, 06:08   #8
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Originally Posted by mixflip View Post
We have gone back and forth over the conceal carry lessons but what lessons can we learn from the "open carry" aspect of this horrible situation?

[I][B]I know many feel open carry gives you a faster response time because there is no clothing to clear when you draw.
Took a concealed carry draw class some time ago. It really is very fast if you prepare and train a tad.

The guys in the untucked button downs might be carrying.

I carry OWB under and untucked button down. clearing the clothes is a non-issue with the proper technique.

Every trip to the range is draw and fire from EDC concealed clothing.

.
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Old 06-16-2014, 06:21   #9
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Aside from LEO & perhaps the perps; who was open carrying?

I don't think there is enough info to make even a dumb assumption.




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Old 06-16-2014, 07:41   #10
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Aside from LEO & perhaps the perps; who was open carrying?

I don't think there is enough info to make even a dumb assumption.




red
Pretty much. Once the investigation is complete, everyone and their dog can study it for "tactical correctness."

I will bet that Wilcox wished he had a long gun when he decided to engage and I bet those same people running out of Wal-Mart would have been scared and offended if he walked in with one strapped across the front of his chest.

I guess this is the nature of a semi-polite society?
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Old 06-16-2014, 07:46   #11
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You're correct. When it's your time to die you can't stop it from happening.
As far as open vs. concealed imo it doesn't really matter in this case and most cases I would say. Situational awareness is key here in a situation like this. Mr. Wilcox did what he could as well as the to brave officers.
One question for the leo's. When you sit in a restaurant do you sit farthest from the entrance facing the main entrance?
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Old 06-16-2014, 08:19   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixflip View Post
The 10+/- year veteran cops had lots of tactical training. One turns out was a firearms instructor and both most likely had MACTAC training.

Thats a lot of tactical training under their belts. Im almost certain Wilcox was not a firearms instructor nor took any LVMPD MACTAC training.

This is another topic of discussion. They trained and Wilcox probably trained very little and both died.

In case someone asks = (MACTAC multi assault counter terrorism action capable) Its techniques developed in response to the Mumbai India massacres since Vegas has a huge cluster of hotels like Mumbai.
Regarding the police officers, training can only get you so far. When you're sitting at a restaurant with a slice of pizza in your mouth and someone quietly steps up behind you and pops you in the back of the head, there is very little in the way of training that can save you.

Everyone has to sleep, everyone has to eat and everyone has to go to the bathroom sometimes, and it is very difficult to do any of these while maintaining complete tactical awareness.
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Old 06-16-2014, 08:44   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixflip View Post
We have gone back and forth over the conceal carry lessons but what lessons can we learn from the "open carry" aspect of this horrible situation?

I know many feel open carry gives you a faster response time because there is no clothing to clear when you draw.

I know many feel open carry is a deterrent. Bad guy sees there is an armed citizen in the store and changes his mind. Bad guy looks for softer targets.

I know many feel open carriers are at a tactical disadvantage because the bad guy (or guy's) know who to shoot first. Open carry makes you a walking billboard that says "hey shoot me first". No element of surprise for the OC'er.

I know some people feel open carriers like the attention and/or the intimidation factor. When they walk into a business they like how everyone looks right at them. It makes them feel special. Its a stroke to the ego.

Some feel open carry didn't deter the killers and the element of surprise of conceal carry didn't stop the killers. Both have their pros and cons...if its your time to go its your time to go...just carry period.Or dont carry at all, just rely on avoidance and awareness.


Do you think the LV ambush strengthens or weakens the open carry discussion?
Your part above is a pretty good summation of the open v. concealed carry argument, I'll give you that.

Just curious, what gave you the idea that traditional, normal open carry was an element of this case? Mr. Wilcox was the only known non-LE, non-criminal carrying in Wal*Mart, correct?

Absent additional information, the Las Vegas event should not impact any factual discussions.

For "what-if-scenarios", it's good fodder.

The Millers are at the top of the very top tier of bad actors open carriers may ever face. They are the ones who will not be deterred by the sight of an open carried firearm. They identify that firearm as a threat, perhaps a law enforcement officer and will shoot that armed person first. A person in a lower threat tier might surrender. At this level, no way. BUT, the open carrying person does not know that.

Still want to open carry? Do you still believe you have the right mindset?
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Old 06-16-2014, 08:57   #14
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Here's what I know -

Two whack jobs walked into a pizza place and shot two people wearing uniforms/guns.

It appears as though Mr. Wilcox was not shot until he drew his pistol and approached the male subject. At that time, the female subject who had done a better job of being subtle walked up behind him and shot him. IMO, as soon as Wilcox drew his weapon he STOPPED being a concealed carrier and assumed the role of open carrier.

Other persons in the Walmart were not shot.

It seems fair to hypothesize that Wilcox was shot because he displayed a firearm.
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Old 06-16-2014, 09:13   #15
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here's what i know -

two whack jobs walked into a pizza place and shot two people wearing uniforms/guns.

It appears as though mr. Wilcox was not shot until he drew his pistol and approached the male subject. At that time, the female subject who had done a better job of being subtle walked up behind him and shot him. Imo, as soon as wilcox drew his weapon he stopped being a concealed carrier and assumed the role of open carrier.

Other persons in the walmart were not shot.

It seems fair to hypothesize that wilcox was shot because he displayed a firearm.
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Old 06-16-2014, 11:12   #16
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Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
...

... and everyone has to go to the bathroom sometimes, and it is very difficult to do any of these while maintaining complete tactical awareness.

When I go to the bathroom I am usually on high alert. I don a shoulder holster to keep my gun handy and often have a knife in my mouth ready to go. But if someone comes into the bathroom while I am in there that is probably not what will kill them
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Old 06-16-2014, 11:31   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volsbear View Post
Here's what I know -

Two whack jobs walked into a pizza place and shot two people wearing uniforms/guns.

It appears as though Mr. Wilcox was not shot until he drew his pistol and approached the male subject. At that time, the female subject who had done a better job of being subtle walked up behind him and shot him. IMO, as soon as Wilcox drew his weapon he STOPPED being a concealed carrier and assumed the role of open carrier.

Other persons in the Walmart were not shot.

It seems fair to hypothesize that Wilcox was shot because he displayed a firearm.
Let's address the part in blue first. Is "carrying in the hand" in any definition of "Open Carry" in Nevada? I do not know that it is. I cannot find it.

I disagree that drawing a concealed weapon for use is a method of open carry, is open carrying.

One exception to legally hand carrying a handgun as a form as open carrying was kwikrnu, Leonard Embody hand carrying his black powder replica revolver in Belle Meade, Tennessee. According to the Belle Meade Code at that time, it was legal to do so.
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Old 06-16-2014, 11:41   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volsbear View Post
Here's what I know -

Two whack jobs walked into a pizza place and shot two people wearing uniforms/guns.

It appears as though Mr. Wilcox was not shot until he drew his pistol and approached the male subject. At that time, the female subject who had done a better job of being subtle walked up behind him and shot him. IMO, as soon as Wilcox drew his weapon he STOPPED being a concealed carrier and assumed the role of open carrier.

Other persons in the Walmart were not shot.

It seems fair to hypothesize that Wilcox was shot because he displayed a firearm.
I disagree with your 'open carry' interpretation. However, I will concede he handled the firearm in the open.



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Old 06-16-2014, 11:56   #19
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Let's talk about the pizza place. Could a CCW holder have stopped the meth heads after they shot the cops? Is it even legal to shoot someone after they are done murdering people and are retreating?
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Old 06-16-2014, 12:00   #20
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Hmmm... I'm not certain that basing general policy on a pair of aberrant, outlying psychos is sound. I'm far more likely to try to train/carry based on the threats I'm most likely to face, like a mugger at the ATM. Will this leave me looking stupid when I encounter ten (10) jihadists armed with AKs taking over the mall? Sure. Let's be honest, though, I look nothing like Bruce Willis and I was gonna lose that fight anyway. JMO.
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