GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-28-2013, 07:33   #41
tricked splash
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: ct
Posts: 94
Send a message via AIM to tricked splash
Im sure there are some junk out there but my h&r does everything I want out of it, eats all the ammo I feed it and works just as good as my Mossberg 500
tricked splash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2013, 21:28   #42
mr00jimbo
Senior Member
 
mr00jimbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 4,282
Canada is the land of cheap Chinese knock off guns. We have quite a few 870 clones from China. Some with 12.5 or 14-inch barrels are generally regarded as well made, reliable guns. They're heavy and I think the receivers are thicker. Not sure if they're stronger per se, but might be beefing them up to try and counteract a cheaper metal, who the hell knows.

We have one called the 780 that's so poorly made that people actually sell them with the disclaimer that they're unsafe to fire LOL.

870 Expresses aren't perfect. I wish they would do something about the rough chambers and the cheap, rust-prone finish. But they keep the cost down to compete. I like the idea of buying an American-made shotgun over something made in China that's ripping off the design anyways (are they licensed? I highly doubt it).

They can make them inexpensively because labour costs are low, and there is no liability or R&D or anything. Just copy and put them out. But they're apparently good shotguns for the money, according to most.
__________________
"Learning to shoot with a Glock is like learning to drive with a car with a smashed windshield and two flat tires."
-Yo
mr00jimbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2013, 22:49   #43
Nalapombu
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Spring, TEXAS....USA
Posts: 5,132


Once the Patent runs out, after 25 years I think, it's OPEN SEASON. That's why everyone and their brother can make 1911's and AR-15's. I think the 870 was first made in the 50's and MILLIONS of them have been made.

The cheapest price I have seen a NEW 870 12 gauge go for is right at $300 and that is for the 26 inch VR barrel. I don't know what the Express Tactical goes for, probably near $350. Then I look at the Pardner Pump Protector at $210. That's pretty hard to beat when you figure you're saving $150 that you could spend on practice ammo and other goodies. Heck for that much money you could replace what is thought to be the weakest parts in it and still have money left. REMINGTON 870 parts interchange with both the Pardner Pump and the IAC 982 Hawk, which is the one that comes with Ghost Ring sights out of the box.

I'd GLADLY buy a Remington if it was closer to the price. Heck I can't even find USED ones for lower than $270 or so. I guess people think that because it's a Remington 870, they can keep the price HIGH.
I haven't bought anything yet. I also really like the Benelli Super Nova tactical and would love to have one of those.

I'm just saying that if those Pardner Pump and IAC Hawk shotguns were JUNK, there would be posts all over the place saying so and SHOWING IT. I have found none. If you want to object to buying it cause it's made in CHINA, perfectly legitimate and I can understand that.

Nalajr

Nalajr
__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Ben Franklin
Nalapombu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2013, 12:31   #44
huskerbuttons
Senior Member
 
huskerbuttons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 1,291
If you're looking for a cheap 870, wait outside of a pawnshop. You'll see someone heading to the shop with an 870. When you see them heading to the pawnshop stop them and tell then you'll buy the gun for $50 more than the pawnshop offers. If they agree, go into the shop so you can hear the offer. Once they are offered $125 or so for the gun by the pawn broker, you both can go out and you have the gun for $175. I have done that a few times when I was poorer and couldn't afford a new gun. Pisses off the pawnshop but you get a gun at a lesser price.
huskerbuttons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2013, 17:05   #45
Calhoun123
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: LA
Posts: 782
Walmart has Model 500 youth 20 gauge shotguns for $199.00. It is everything you need in a home defense shotgun - short LOP, short barrel, short overall length, screw in chokes, and good capacity 5+1.
Calhoun123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2013, 17:25   #46
mr00jimbo
Senior Member
 
mr00jimbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 4,282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalapombu View Post

I'd GLADLY buy a Remington if it was closer to the price. Heck I can't even find USED ones for lower than $270 or so. I guess people think that because it's a Remington 870, they can keep the price HIGH.
I haven't bought anything yet. I also really like the Benelli Super Nova tactical and would love to have one of those.

I'm just saying that if those Pardner Pump and IAC Hawk shotguns were JUNK, there would be posts all over the place saying so and SHOWING IT. I have found none. If you want to object to buying it cause it's made in CHINA, perfectly legitimate and I can understand that.

Nalajr
The problem I see is the cost of labor. You're comparing a gun assembled by men and women in New York State (perhaps a union shop that pays a decent wage) versus likely slave labor in China paid a pitiful fraction of what Remington pays their employees. Plus Remington has to pay for liability, advertising, warranty, etc.
China, on the other hand, has to churn out a lookalike that they can sell you for comparatively little money. If that gun breaks, falls apart in your hands, injures you, whatever, then that's on you to figure something out, or maybe the store you got it from, or the parent company in the US.

However, who's making the lion's shake of the profit? Some factories in China are being so squeezed by American buyers that even the factory owners are in the poorhouse. Others are making off like bandits and the workers get the short end of the stick.

When it comes time to purchasing something, I always try to buy American, Canadian, European, Japanese, in hopes that somebody is making an honest living.
__________________
"Learning to shoot with a Glock is like learning to drive with a car with a smashed windshield and two flat tires."
-Yo
mr00jimbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2013, 20:04   #47
Kilrain
Señor Member
 
Kilrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: On the road to Shambala
Posts: 2,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr00jimbo View Post
When it comes time to purchasing something, I always try to buy American, Canadian, European, Japanese, in hopes that somebody is making an honest living.
This seems to be the essence of what most people object to. It ain't got nothing to do with quality, functionality or reliability of of these shotguns, it has to do with them being made in a country whose politics, motivations and treatment of their citizens that many don't agree with or actively oppose. That makes it a perceived moral or ethical stand against said country. And that's fine I suppose, but the reality is that stand is being taken by people who drive cars full of parts made in China, watch TVs full of parts made in China, talk on cell phones full of parts made in China, live in homes full of objects and parts made in China and post on internet forums using their computers full a Chinese, "slave labor" parts.

__________________
The hog of the forsaken,

He is the pork of crime

- Michael Hurley

Last edited by Kilrain; 11-29-2013 at 20:07..
Kilrain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2013, 20:07   #48
Kilrain
Señor Member
 
Kilrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: On the road to Shambala
Posts: 2,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calhoun123 View Post
Walmart has Model 500 youth 20 gauge shotguns for $199.00. It is everything you need in a home defense shotgun - short LOP, short barrel, short overall length, screw in chokes, and good capacity 5+1.
And if I could find that item for that price in my area, I'd buy one of those to give to my wife for Xmas. Best price I've seen on something like you are describing was $309 plus tax and fees, but it did include a longer VR hunting barrel.
__________________
The hog of the forsaken,

He is the pork of crime

- Michael Hurley
Kilrain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2013, 08:52   #49
The Shadow
Member
 
The Shadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: SC
Posts: 97
Here's what I did to my IAC Hawk 981R:
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1504262

I haven't put hundreds of rounds through it yet but so far it's functioned as reliably as any 870 I've owned in the past. Not as pretty but who cares.

Terry
__________________
"Marines - Providing Enemies of America an Opportunity To Die For their Country Since 1775"
The Shadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2013, 20:17   #50
Nalapombu
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Spring, TEXAS....USA
Posts: 5,132


Good info guys.

I agree that the biggest problem people have with the IAC and Pardner Pump shotguns is that they are MADE in China. If they fell apart on you or broke after a box of shells, this wouldn't even be a topic of conversation. They'd be JUNK and everyone would know it.

If those same guns were made in MEXICO, there wouldn't be nearly the negative feedback on them that there is.

As was said, you couldn't count the number of CHINESE stuff in your house and car. EVERY cell phone these days starts in CHINA and most are made there. I know the APPLE phones are.

Nallajr
__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Ben Franklin
Nalapombu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2013, 21:50   #51
mr00jimbo
Senior Member
 
mr00jimbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 4,282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilrain View Post
This seems to be the essence of what most people object to. It ain't got nothing to do with quality, functionality or reliability of of these shotguns, it has to do with them being made in a country whose politics, motivations and treatment of their citizens that many don't agree with or actively oppose. That makes it a perceived moral or ethical stand against said country. And that's fine I suppose, but the reality is that stand is being taken by people who drive cars full of parts made in China, watch TVs full of parts made in China, talk on cell phones full of parts made in China, live in homes full of objects and parts made in China and post on internet forums using their computers full a Chinese, "slave labor" parts.

You're right. But it's the sneaky "copy everything" of the country that makes me apprehensive to support it whenever possible.
I try to avoid buying Made in China whenever possible, for what it's worth.
This is a country with no respect for intellectual property or copyright laws. Yes, the patent of the 870 expired. But so what, do you have to go out and make clones of it versus making something of your own design?

Another way of looking at it, will China ever break free of enslaving its people if the demand for cheap goods doesn't taper off? Don't tell me that Chinese factories making stuff for Wal Mart aren't constantly squeezed for the last penny by American buyers who demand they make stuff cheaper and cheaper.
Look at Apple. Company's raking in BILLIONS of dollars, everybody swoons every second they bring out something new. People line up outside to buy their products in the cold. They just gotta have it. And yet, this company is making their products in factories in China that have such piss-poor worker satisfaction that there're suicide nets and financial threats to the worker's family if he/she commits suicide. Should this not be a red flag?

This is a country with no regard for their own people's safety as well as the safety of their customer base. I can't in good faith support that when the American-made version is so readily in reach in comparison.

You wouldn't support a gun company who was a proponent of gun control, why support one that is involved in shady dealings?

My 0.02. The gun itself might be fine but I think I'll pass.
__________________
"Learning to shoot with a Glock is like learning to drive with a car with a smashed windshield and two flat tires."
-Yo

Last edited by mr00jimbo; 12-01-2013 at 22:01..
mr00jimbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2013, 23:46   #52
Kilrain
Señor Member
 
Kilrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: On the road to Shambala
Posts: 2,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr00jimbo View Post
You're right. But it's the sneaky "copy everything" of the country that makes me apprehensive to support it whenever possible.
I try to avoid buying Made in China whenever possible, for what it's worth.
This is a country with no respect for intellectual property or copyright laws. Yes, the patent of the 870 expired. But so what, do you have to go out and make clones of it versus making something of your own design?
If you go here:

H&R 1871 Press Releases

And click the Remington Announces Manufacturing Consolidation Plan link, then read the About Remington Arms Company, Inc., you'll see that it's apparent that the Pardner Pump isn't a "sneaky copy" or ripoff of any kind, it's made under license for H&R 1871 with Remington's knowledge and support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr00jimbo View Post
Another way of looking at it, will China ever break free of enslaving its people if the demand for cheap goods doesn't taper off? Don't tell me that Chinese factories making stuff for Wal Mart aren't constantly squeezed for the last penny by American buyers who demand they make stuff cheaper and cheaper.
Look at Apple. Company's raking in BILLIONS of dollars, everybody swoons every second they bring out something new. People line up outside to buy their products in the cold. They just gotta have it. And yet, this company is making their products in factories in China that have such piss-poor worker satisfaction that there're suicide nets and financial threats to the worker's family if he/she commits suicide. Should this not be a red flag?

This is a country with no regard for their own people's safety as well as the safety of their customer base. I can't in good faith support that when the American-made version is so readily in reach in comparison.

You wouldn't support a gun company who was a proponent of gun control, why support one that is involved in shady dealings?
I get it, China has a bad government and treats it's people badly. No doubt, no argument regarding that.

However...

If anyone thinks they are somehow morally or ethically superior because they don't buy a gun made in China while living the rest of their live essentially dependent on other products made in China, they need to get their head checked.

Saying that you consciously avoid purchasing products made in China is fine, but doesn't change the fact that you use, rely on and, thereby, support China in hundreds, if not thousands, of ways every day. It's just a fact of modern life in the U.S. and Canada and most every other place in the world for that matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr00jimbo View Post
My 0.02. The gun itself might be fine but I think I'll pass.
Your money, your choice I got ZERO problems with that. Enjoy what you got I say.
__________________
The hog of the forsaken,

He is the pork of crime

- Michael Hurley
Kilrain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2013, 15:16   #53
cyphertext
Senior Member
 
cyphertext's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,550
Remington Express is on sale at Cabela's for $269.
cyphertext is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2013, 18:33   #54
mr00jimbo
Senior Member
 
mr00jimbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 4,282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilrain View Post
If you go here:

H&R 1871 Press Releases

And click the Remington Announces Manufacturing Consolidation Plan link, then read the About Remington Arms Company, Inc., you'll see that it's apparent that the Pardner Pump isn't a "sneaky copy" or ripoff of any kind, it's made under license for H&R 1871 with Remington's knowledge and support.



I get it, China has a bad government and treats it's people badly. No doubt, no argument regarding that.

However...

If anyone thinks they are somehow morally or ethically superior because they don't buy a gun made in China while living the rest of their live essentially dependent on other products made in China, they need to get their head checked.

Saying that you consciously avoid purchasing products made in China is fine, but doesn't change the fact that you use, rely on and, thereby, support China in hundreds, if not thousands, of ways every day. It's just a fact of modern life in the U.S. and Canada and most every other place in the world for that matter.



Your money, your choice I got ZERO problems with that. Enjoy what you got I say.
For the record, I do have things made there. I do my best to avoid it, but sometimes there's no alternative that's inexpensive.

Guns are not something I'm willing to cheap out on.
__________________
"Learning to shoot with a Glock is like learning to drive with a car with a smashed windshield and two flat tires."
-Yo
mr00jimbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2013, 00:40   #55
nglckwetrst
Mastermind
 
nglckwetrst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Midwest
Posts: 161
I bought a brand new 20" Mossberg 500 with Eotech eliminated Forend last year for about $460. Upon the first outing with the shotgun, it failed to chamber brand new shells, consistently. I cleaned it and lubed it, and it continued the fail to feed. Sometimes I had to rack the slide 10 times in order to feed one shell.

I sent the shotgun to Mossberg. I received it back after the replaced the cartridge interrupter. I fired approximately 3 boxes through it without a hitch.

When I got back home I attempted chamber a shell when I heard a sound in my garage. The action of the gun was so bound up no amount of banging the action or slamming the forend would free it. Upon closer inspection, the elevator was twisted up beyond recognition with no explanation.

I had to send this fine American hardware off to Mossberg again.

On Black Friday I bought an H&R Pardner Protector Pump for $169 from Dick's Sporting Goods last week. I've shot 75 rounds through the Chi-com gun without a hitch.

The internals on the H&R are sharp and rough to the touch- that's about the only difference, I can see in the quality of these 2 guns. When just handling the two guns, one can see the finish on the Pardner is actually better than the Mossberg.

If the amount of money spent were the same, I'd say it was a close comparison between these two shotguns. But the fact that I spent less than half on this shotgun, I have to say the H&R is the winner of this comparo. That's leaving out the fact that I had to send the GD Mossberg back to its maker on 2 occasions.

Everything about the PPP feels better, shoots better, instills greater confidence. The Mossberg is lighter weight, has an ambidextrous safety and better positioning for the action bar release, and holds an additional 2 rounds in the magazine tube. It's the gun you'd choose to carry around in the woods. The 18.5" barrel of the PPP feels lighter, and more maneuverable vs. Mossberg's 20" barrel, though the loss of 2 rounds is felt psychologically. Oh, and the metal trigger assembly on the Pardner is another added bonus, and something that irks me about the Mossberg.

If I could do it again, I'd buy 2 Pardner Pumps and put a light on one and keep the other plain Jane. That would make me happy to have 2 guns, and keep additional money in my pocket.

If you dropped the price of a Remington/Mossberg into the realm of a Pardner, I still think you'd be better off with the H&R. This thing is built like a tank- like everyone else has been saying.

Imagine the people being sent to buy a used Mossberg/Remington, could end up with the reject Mossberg shotgun that I currently own. I'd rather have a brand new gun versus risking buying someone else's problem.


Buy whichever makes you happy, but don't avoid the PPP due to quality concerns- there are no quality issues with this Chinese gun.
__________________
"It t'is what it seems...
that thing imprinting through the seam
of my jeans."
-Clipse
nglckwetrst is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2013, 19:43   #56
Nalapombu
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Spring, TEXAS....USA
Posts: 5,132


From everything I have read about these shotguns, I don't get how they are "CHEAP" when compared to the Remington.

Nalajr
__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Ben Franklin
Nalapombu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2013, 00:02   #57
nglckwetrst
Mastermind
 
nglckwetrst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Midwest
Posts: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalapombu View Post
From everything I have read about these shotguns, I don't get how they are "CHEAP" when compared to the Remington.

Nalajr
They aren't cheap. Don't be bent outta shape about everyones opinions.
__________________
"It t'is what it seems...
that thing imprinting through the seam
of my jeans."
-Clipse
nglckwetrst is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2013, 10:17   #58
debbert
Senior Member
 
debbert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: North Perry, OH
Posts: 814
Once you get past the fact that anything mechanical has the ability to falter, including brand names, you should know that the Pardner Pump is well-built.

I own one, I shoot one, and it performs just as well as any of the brand name brands that folks will swear up-and-down are better (although most can't articulate why). I haven't found any evidence that proves major manufacturing or malfunctioning problems on the Pardner Pumps.

Simply put, get what's right for you and your budget.
__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE
debbert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2013, 11:13   #59
buddah
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 779
Send a message via AIM to buddah Send a message via Yahoo to buddah
I am LEO armorer/Firearms Instructor and I went to Remmy 870/1187 armorers class. I own a personal Remmy 870 Police and Mossy 590A1. In my 17 yr. career I have seen only a handful of times where an 870 police failed due to parts breakage. It happens but it's rare.

On Black Friday I went to Dicks Sporting goods and picked up H&R NEF Pardner protector pump in 12ga for $150. I figured "Why not?". Receiver says made in china BUT barrel says "Remington arms Ilion, N.Y". Also the pardner mag. tube holds 5+1 from the factory. The Remmy holds 4+1 from factory.The gun is heavy but it isn't a field gun. The trigger guard is metal, not plastic like Remmy express or Maverick 88. I went to range with Pardner last weekend w/ bunch of fellow LEO firearms instructors and we shot 150 rds. of mixed 12ga. ammo (Buck/Slug) various cheapie brands (Wolf/Rio/Estate etc.) Not one failure of any type. BTW the NEF H&R is part of Cerubus Capital group, same company that owns Remmy, Bushmaster and a few other "Major brand names". I was also told the Pardner has a lifetime guarantee. Did I mention that quite a few of the LEO instructors who saw my pardner commented " The Dicks $150 Special, Yeah I bought one a few years back, they are great guns for $$".



If I could only own one shotgun it would be my Remmy Police 870. But the Pardner ain't a bad choice for someone on a budget. I haven't cleaned the pardner and plan on hitting range next week for another 100+rounds.

Last edited by buddah; 12-06-2013 at 11:16..
buddah is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 00:21.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 839
190 Members
649 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 16:42