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Old 10-31-2013, 12:51   #21
cyphertext
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Nalapombu, you should be able to find a Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 used cheap in Texas, as soon as duck season is over. Start hitting pawn shops after Christmas, early spring, and they will be over run with them.
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Old 10-31-2013, 13:57   #22
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Correct evaluation, however, these are not the people that work on these weapons. They are end users and are seldom inside these clones where the differences are real. SAAMI standard rule in the USA and you are assuming they are followed in the countries building these clones. Manufacturing processes are strickly followed in the US as these companies live in fear of litigation for fautly products. In the clone world their are "cut offs" protecting the foreign manufacturers. It would be nice iF an attorny who has knowledge of this would post in and validate that point. If you have a clone you are buying a product that looks like, performs like or somewhat like the real thing. You are not getting the same quality in a product that will last like the original.

Years ago the Ithica 37 was used as one of the first clones from Chong dong or something another Machine works in China. I picked on up for a cheap weapon to leave at a Cabin. Man that thing worked great, almost as smooth as a 37. 20" smoth bore with rifle sights. Decide to keep it to play with and many hundreds of rounds when through it by me and by friends. Could not belive how great it shot rifled slugs. One guy shot it and swore the barrel was rifled until he walked back up to the bench and looked and saw it was a smooth bore. In the Winter I do complete stripping of all my guns (nothing else to do up here in the winter) and once inside that clone I realized the differences and the poor workmanship. Yes, it worked and it shot fine. It was not the quality of the Ithica 37 in any way.

If you want to buy a clone and tell yourself it is the real thing then that works for you. However, to state that to others is misleading and does not do the issue justice. It would be better to say that for the money they can be a good value depending on the intent of the use, the volume of use and what you are expecting from a firearm. That would be the fair thing to say about them.

And yes, to copy anything is easy. Also, to manufacturer the item with same quality can be done, however, they do not and they do not have to.
I'm a bit confused by what you are saying here. I have an H&R Pardner Pump in 12 gauge. It has(at least has so far) performed just as well as my 870 Marine Magnum(or my 590A1 or Ithaca 37 or whatever else). That being said, isn't the "proof in the pudding" as they say? I'll grant the finish isn't as nice as my 870 or Ithaca, and there are visible machine/tooling marks on some parts that aren't visible on the 870 or Ithaca, but from a functional standpoint, it is the equivalent(at least so far). Is this NOT the typical experience that you are aware of?

As for US manufacturers adhering to SAAMI standards, that's a good thing. However you don't think that companies that import and market these firearms under their name ensure that they meet minimum safety standards on a regular basis? If these guns were prone to catastrophic failure, I can't imagine a US importer wanting to be involved with them. Once again, I'm not asking about fit/finish, although I have seen some shoddy 870 Express guns, I'm asking about basic metallurgy and manufacturing processes.

Added on edit: I don't know anything about metallurgy, literally, that's why I'm asking if perhaps you have some insight into the actual material these guns are being made with is substandard somehow. My only real reference as to that being a possibility is the Norinco copy of the M14 from back in the 90s(?). I seem to remember reading that while they were milled forgings(not cast) and well machined, the actual steel was a bit too soft which could(?) cause problems over the long haul. I freely admit that comparing the pressures of a 7.62mm rifle to a 12 gauge is a stretch, but that's why I'm curious.

I do agree that if you buy a "clone," like the Steven 350 copy of the Ithaca 37, to say it IS an Ithaca 37 is a lie.

I know you are very experienced with shotguns and your informed posts are always appreciated, I'm just trying to figure out what you're trying to say. Bear in mind, I can be a bit slow on the uptake at times.......
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Old 10-31-2013, 14:34   #23
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NO, only the Handi Rifle is manufactured there. I know this as a fact as I was at the facoty in April and walk the floor they are built on and all the floor. No pumps shotguns other the 870 and the POS 887 are manufactured in Ilion.
I didn't say the gun was manufactured there, just some of its parts.
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Old 10-31-2013, 23:35   #24
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No parts are made for the H&R Pump in Illion either. Making parts in NY to send over seas to put in a gun to send back makes little sence. The H&R pump is there to capture a share of the clone and budget market. It is not there to compete against, replace or even pass for an 870. Many of you may not remember back when sears had three qualities of most items. Looked like the same thing and worked but they were marked and priced different as the quality was different. They were marked "Good" "Better" and "Best" and priced accordinally. Same thing here. You bought the one that fit your need and price range. Nothing different about this topic.
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Old 11-01-2013, 00:04   #25
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No parts are made for the H&R Pump in Illion either. Making parts in NY to send over seas to put in a gun to send back makes little sence.
That makes sense, no doubt. But it makes just as much sense that small parts are manufactured in the US and installed in the US when the large parts, receiver, barrel, mag tube, etc arrive here. That's essentially what Mossberg does with the Maverick line, although in reverse. I have no idea about Remington though.

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The H&R pump is there to capture a share of the clone and budget market. It is not there to compete against, replace or even pass for an 870.
Agreed, it a low price, purpose built/imported firearm. It simply shares the design characteristics of the 870 to ensure that it functions similarly.

Quote:
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Many of you may not remember back when sears had three qualities of most items. Looked like the same thing and worked but they were marked and priced different as the quality was different. They were marked "Good" "Better" and "Best" and priced accordinally. Same thing here. You bought the one that fit your need and price range. Nothing different about this topic.
While I don't specifically remember Sears marketing their products that way, I'm familiar with the concept. For instance, I remember Mossberg and Stevens selling their guns as "hardware guns" to chains like Coast to Coast Hardware. They were, essentially, the exact same gun, with cheaper wood, hardware and finish, rollmarked differently. That didn't mean they weren't functionally equivalent, it meant that they weren't as nicely finished and/or put together. Is that what you are saying about the Chinese guns?
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Old 11-01-2013, 07:59   #26
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It's like putting spinner rims and a flatscreen with DVD player into a Yugo.

For how inexpensive a used (dependable) 870 can be found, I won't be buying anything Chinese.
Mr. Murphy summed it up nicely. Paint on a turd.
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Old 11-01-2013, 16:02   #27
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Yeah Uh Huh....

How about detailing for me how the Pardner Pump 12 gauge or the IAC HAWK 982 are TURDS. I'd like to know how the Remington 870 EXPRESS is so much better.

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Old 11-01-2013, 16:48   #28
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Quote:
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Yeah Uh Huh....

How about detailing for me how the Pardner Pump 12 gauge or the IAC HAWK 982 are TURDS. I'd like to know how the Remington 870 EXPRESS is so much better.

Nalajr
To me it just seems that you want someone to argue with.

Except for a couple of little tiny internal parts easily replaced by you for around $30, the Express and the 870P are the same gun with the exception of the finish and the furniture. There is no equivalent with the guns you mentioned.

A brand new Remington 25077 can be had, after the $30 rebate, for $339. Why would you want to go with a clone and then spend time arguing on the internet over the suitability of a replica piece when the real thing can be easily had? Regardless, I have a nice bouquet of "Ijustdon'tgiveadamns" for you.
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Old 11-01-2013, 18:12   #29
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No, the store brands from years ago were still built on the same lines under the same manufacturing standards as the weapons built under the manufacturers name. Heck, their is a section in the Blue Book of gun values dedicated to those guns as many were made for Sears, Western Auto, J.C Penny's and many others. I have a 90+ year old single shot 20ga that is stamped "Volunteer" that was made for a Hardware Chain in TN back in the 20" and is most likely a Stevens. The clones being imported are not made here, are not under the same manufacturing guide lines and are for a targeted market. Much different then just the same gun with cheaper furniture and finish.

I also don't consider all the clones as POS like some are stating here. They function and do what you purchased them to do. The key is for how long will they do that and under what conditions. If you had an 870 a 590 and China clone all loaded on a table in front of you and you have to go out the door into a gun fight, which one are you picking up? And there is the answer that can end this debate.
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Old 11-01-2013, 18:44   #30
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No, the store brands from years ago were still built on the same lines under the same manufacturing standards as the weapons built under the manufacturers name. Heck, their is a section in the Blue Book of gun values dedicated to those guns as many were made for Sears, Western Auto, J.C Penny's and many others. I have a 90+ year old single shot 20ga that is stamped "Volunteer" that was made for a Hardware Chain in TN back in the 20" and is most likely a Stevens. The clones being imported are not made here, are not under the same manufacturing guide lines and are for a targeted market. Much different then just the same gun with cheaper furniture and finish.
Yeah, I knew the hardware guns were made on the same lines as the "name brand" guns. That being said, I was just curious if you, or anyone else, had actually done any testing or knew of any testing of the actual steel of the receivers, barrels, etc that would indicate that they would, in fact, fail sooner. Or if anyone had done or knows of any long term testing on the imported clone guns.

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I also don't consider all the clones as POS like some are stating here. They function and do what you purchased them to do. The key is for how long will they do that and under what conditions. If you had an 870 a 590 and China clone all loaded on a table in front of you and you have to go out the door into a gun fight, which one are you picking up? And there is the answer that can end this debate.
That is a good question, how long will a gun like the H&R Pardner Pump last? Firstly, we know the design itself is solid since it is a direct copy of the 870 design. Secondly, unless there is something inherently wrong with the steel itself, with routine maintenance and proper care, it should last just as long as any other, domestic or imported, steel framed, slide action repeating shotgun. Which in most cases, is a long time.

As for which gun I'd grab, if they were my guns, probably my 870 as I've had it the longest and used it the most. That being said, I wouldn't feel the least bit underarmed or uncomfortable with the 590, China clone(at least the two I own), a Winchester 1300, Ithaca 37 or a whole host of other guns.

And this doesn't seem like a debate. This is just a conversation between some folks on an internet forum.
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Old 11-01-2013, 18:46   #31
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The purchase price of the gun is the smallest expense. You will probably spend 5 times the sales price of the gun on ammo over it's lifetime. Buying the clone in order to save $50 doesn't make sense when you would probably spend $25 on ammo every range trip.
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Old 11-01-2013, 21:54   #32
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Hey all,

I've been seeing some pretty good deals lately on the Pardner Pump shotguns and the IAC HAWKS, the 981 and 982. I have handled both of them and they felt great. Some say the HAWKs are a tad too heavy, but I didn't think that.

Anyway, I have been thinking of picking one up for cheap when I find a good USED one and turning it into a HD shotgun. I wondered if anyone else has done this or has thought about doing it? I am told that nearly all of the accessories that are available for the Remington 870 will fit on any of these models except for barrels. The barrels are also pretty inexpensive should you need one too.

One model that I have thought about quite a bit is the Pardner Pump Youth 20 gauge. It has black synthetic furniture, 21 inch VR barrel with choke tubes, hold 5+1 too. It looks like it would make a great HD shotgun. The only thing I would do is try to find a 1 or 2 shot extension and a light mount.

What do you all think about these shotguns as a base for a good HD shotgun? Ever wanted to do it? If you have, how about telling about it, your results and experiences and recommendations. Also, include PICS of your build.

I figure if I can pick one up for $100 or slightly more, why not give it a try and see how things turn out? At worst I might end up with a shotgun to use on hog hunts.

What'cha think?

Thanks

Nalajr
I have a Pardener 20ga Youth.
I love mine and have had zero issues with it. Cycles both 2.75 and 3 inch shells just fine. Thing is pretty accurate and built like a tank too.
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Old 11-01-2013, 22:06   #33
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My 20ga Pardner Youth.
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Old 11-02-2013, 20:40   #34
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Got this guy today with the 20ga Pardner. 40 yard shot, in-flight.
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Old 11-23-2013, 16:44   #35
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Some info from an owner in case anyone else is wondering about one of these clones. I went with the IAC 982 mostly because of the ghost ring sights, which I definitely prefer over a bead. I can confirm the only part that is not interchangeable with Remington parts is the barrel.

Since it's easy and cheap, I upgraded the extractor, the sear spring, the carrier dog spring, and the safety (larger) for a total of $43. All of that is a good idea for most 870s anyhow.

I put on a +1 extender with a better follower and longer spring for another $50. That gives a reliable 6+1 HD weapon for just over $300. To get a similar Remington would cost almost $250 more and it only offers one extra bang.

If I had to pick, I'd take the upgraded IAC over a non-upgraded Express. If both are upgraded, there is no real difference.

Since I want my wife to practice with it, I replaced the stock with a Kicklite to reduce felt recoil; say what you want but she likes it. The ergonomics of the Magpul MOE forend made that a worthwhile upgrade and attaching a light to that (instead of the barrel) is a nice bonus. The luxury items (including light and mount) added another $200.
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Old 11-26-2013, 20:49   #36
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I bought a h&r pardner pump it was heavy at first but then I changed the stock and forend to magpuls sga stock and it lightened up. It eats any ammo and if needs be the magpul stock is beefy enough to club someone. Recoil with the new sga stock is not bad and for a rem clone I got new for 215 out the door
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Old 11-27-2013, 18:57   #37
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It's JUNK though. You can't polish a TURD....

Isn't that what they say about those CHINESE 870's?
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Old 11-27-2013, 19:11   #38
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It's JUNK though. You can't polish a TURD....

Isn't that what they say about those CHINESE 870's?
That's what some will insist, usually without ever having tried, much less, owned one.

Meh, it's your money, spend it how you see fit and don't worry about it.
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Old 11-28-2013, 01:08   #39
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I'm still waiting on someone to tell me exactly WHY they are junk?

Nalajr
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Old 11-28-2013, 01:56   #40
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I'm still waiting on someone to tell me exactly WHY they are junk?

Nalajr
Well, if someone does, PM me as I'd like to know too.

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