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Old 11-01-2013, 07:59   #26
ArmoryDoc
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Originally Posted by MrMurphy View Post
It's like putting spinner rims and a flatscreen with DVD player into a Yugo.

For how inexpensive a used (dependable) 870 can be found, I won't be buying anything Chinese.
Mr. Murphy summed it up nicely. Paint on a turd.
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Old 11-01-2013, 16:02   #27
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Yeah Uh Huh....

How about detailing for me how the Pardner Pump 12 gauge or the IAC HAWK 982 are TURDS. I'd like to know how the Remington 870 EXPRESS is so much better.

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Old 11-01-2013, 16:48   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalapombu View Post
Yeah Uh Huh....

How about detailing for me how the Pardner Pump 12 gauge or the IAC HAWK 982 are TURDS. I'd like to know how the Remington 870 EXPRESS is so much better.

Nalajr
To me it just seems that you want someone to argue with.

Except for a couple of little tiny internal parts easily replaced by you for around $30, the Express and the 870P are the same gun with the exception of the finish and the furniture. There is no equivalent with the guns you mentioned.

A brand new Remington 25077 can be had, after the $30 rebate, for $339. Why would you want to go with a clone and then spend time arguing on the internet over the suitability of a replica piece when the real thing can be easily had? Regardless, I have a nice bouquet of "Ijustdon'tgiveadamns" for you.
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Old 11-01-2013, 18:12   #29
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No, the store brands from years ago were still built on the same lines under the same manufacturing standards as the weapons built under the manufacturers name. Heck, their is a section in the Blue Book of gun values dedicated to those guns as many were made for Sears, Western Auto, J.C Penny's and many others. I have a 90+ year old single shot 20ga that is stamped "Volunteer" that was made for a Hardware Chain in TN back in the 20" and is most likely a Stevens. The clones being imported are not made here, are not under the same manufacturing guide lines and are for a targeted market. Much different then just the same gun with cheaper furniture and finish.

I also don't consider all the clones as POS like some are stating here. They function and do what you purchased them to do. The key is for how long will they do that and under what conditions. If you had an 870 a 590 and China clone all loaded on a table in front of you and you have to go out the door into a gun fight, which one are you picking up? And there is the answer that can end this debate.
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Old 11-01-2013, 18:44   #30
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No, the store brands from years ago were still built on the same lines under the same manufacturing standards as the weapons built under the manufacturers name. Heck, their is a section in the Blue Book of gun values dedicated to those guns as many were made for Sears, Western Auto, J.C Penny's and many others. I have a 90+ year old single shot 20ga that is stamped "Volunteer" that was made for a Hardware Chain in TN back in the 20" and is most likely a Stevens. The clones being imported are not made here, are not under the same manufacturing guide lines and are for a targeted market. Much different then just the same gun with cheaper furniture and finish.
Yeah, I knew the hardware guns were made on the same lines as the "name brand" guns. That being said, I was just curious if you, or anyone else, had actually done any testing or knew of any testing of the actual steel of the receivers, barrels, etc that would indicate that they would, in fact, fail sooner. Or if anyone had done or knows of any long term testing on the imported clone guns.

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I also don't consider all the clones as POS like some are stating here. They function and do what you purchased them to do. The key is for how long will they do that and under what conditions. If you had an 870 a 590 and China clone all loaded on a table in front of you and you have to go out the door into a gun fight, which one are you picking up? And there is the answer that can end this debate.
That is a good question, how long will a gun like the H&R Pardner Pump last? Firstly, we know the design itself is solid since it is a direct copy of the 870 design. Secondly, unless there is something inherently wrong with the steel itself, with routine maintenance and proper care, it should last just as long as any other, domestic or imported, steel framed, slide action repeating shotgun. Which in most cases, is a long time.

As for which gun I'd grab, if they were my guns, probably my 870 as I've had it the longest and used it the most. That being said, I wouldn't feel the least bit underarmed or uncomfortable with the 590, China clone(at least the two I own), a Winchester 1300, Ithaca 37 or a whole host of other guns.

And this doesn't seem like a debate. This is just a conversation between some folks on an internet forum.
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Old 11-01-2013, 18:46   #31
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The purchase price of the gun is the smallest expense. You will probably spend 5 times the sales price of the gun on ammo over it's lifetime. Buying the clone in order to save $50 doesn't make sense when you would probably spend $25 on ammo every range trip.
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Old 11-01-2013, 21:54   #32
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Hey all,

I've been seeing some pretty good deals lately on the Pardner Pump shotguns and the IAC HAWKS, the 981 and 982. I have handled both of them and they felt great. Some say the HAWKs are a tad too heavy, but I didn't think that.

Anyway, I have been thinking of picking one up for cheap when I find a good USED one and turning it into a HD shotgun. I wondered if anyone else has done this or has thought about doing it? I am told that nearly all of the accessories that are available for the Remington 870 will fit on any of these models except for barrels. The barrels are also pretty inexpensive should you need one too.

One model that I have thought about quite a bit is the Pardner Pump Youth 20 gauge. It has black synthetic furniture, 21 inch VR barrel with choke tubes, hold 5+1 too. It looks like it would make a great HD shotgun. The only thing I would do is try to find a 1 or 2 shot extension and a light mount.

What do you all think about these shotguns as a base for a good HD shotgun? Ever wanted to do it? If you have, how about telling about it, your results and experiences and recommendations. Also, include PICS of your build.

I figure if I can pick one up for $100 or slightly more, why not give it a try and see how things turn out? At worst I might end up with a shotgun to use on hog hunts.

What'cha think?

Thanks

Nalajr
I have a Pardener 20ga Youth.
I love mine and have had zero issues with it. Cycles both 2.75 and 3 inch shells just fine. Thing is pretty accurate and built like a tank too.
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Old 11-01-2013, 22:06   #33
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My 20ga Pardner Youth.
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Old 11-02-2013, 20:40   #34
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Got this guy today with the 20ga Pardner. 40 yard shot, in-flight.
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Old 11-23-2013, 15:44   #35
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Some info from an owner in case anyone else is wondering about one of these clones. I went with the IAC 982 mostly because of the ghost ring sights, which I definitely prefer over a bead. I can confirm the only part that is not interchangeable with Remington parts is the barrel.

Since it's easy and cheap, I upgraded the extractor, the sear spring, the carrier dog spring, and the safety (larger) for a total of $43. All of that is a good idea for most 870s anyhow.

I put on a +1 extender with a better follower and longer spring for another $50. That gives a reliable 6+1 HD weapon for just over $300. To get a similar Remington would cost almost $250 more and it only offers one extra bang.

If I had to pick, I'd take the upgraded IAC over a non-upgraded Express. If both are upgraded, there is no real difference.

Since I want my wife to practice with it, I replaced the stock with a Kicklite to reduce felt recoil; say what you want but she likes it. The ergonomics of the Magpul MOE forend made that a worthwhile upgrade and attaching a light to that (instead of the barrel) is a nice bonus. The luxury items (including light and mount) added another $200.
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Old 11-26-2013, 19:49   #36
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I bought a h&r pardner pump it was heavy at first but then I changed the stock and forend to magpuls sga stock and it lightened up. It eats any ammo and if needs be the magpul stock is beefy enough to club someone. Recoil with the new sga stock is not bad and for a rem clone I got new for 215 out the door
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Old 11-27-2013, 17:57   #37
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It's JUNK though. You can't polish a TURD....

Isn't that what they say about those CHINESE 870's?
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Old 11-27-2013, 18:11   #38
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Originally Posted by Nalapombu View Post
It's JUNK though. You can't polish a TURD....

Isn't that what they say about those CHINESE 870's?
That's what some will insist, usually without ever having tried, much less, owned one.

Meh, it's your money, spend it how you see fit and don't worry about it.
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Old 11-28-2013, 00:08   #39
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I'm still waiting on someone to tell me exactly WHY they are junk?

Nalajr
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Old 11-28-2013, 00:56   #40
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I'm still waiting on someone to tell me exactly WHY they are junk?

Nalajr
Well, if someone does, PM me as I'd like to know too.

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Old 11-28-2013, 06:33   #41
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Im sure there are some junk out there but my h&r does everything I want out of it, eats all the ammo I feed it and works just as good as my Mossberg 500
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Old 11-28-2013, 20:28   #42
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Canada is the land of cheap Chinese knock off guns. We have quite a few 870 clones from China. Some with 12.5 or 14-inch barrels are generally regarded as well made, reliable guns. They're heavy and I think the receivers are thicker. Not sure if they're stronger per se, but might be beefing them up to try and counteract a cheaper metal, who the hell knows.

We have one called the 780 that's so poorly made that people actually sell them with the disclaimer that they're unsafe to fire LOL.

870 Expresses aren't perfect. I wish they would do something about the rough chambers and the cheap, rust-prone finish. But they keep the cost down to compete. I like the idea of buying an American-made shotgun over something made in China that's ripping off the design anyways (are they licensed? I highly doubt it).

They can make them inexpensively because labour costs are low, and there is no liability or R&D or anything. Just copy and put them out. But they're apparently good shotguns for the money, according to most.
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Old 11-28-2013, 21:49   #43
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Once the Patent runs out, after 25 years I think, it's OPEN SEASON. That's why everyone and their brother can make 1911's and AR-15's. I think the 870 was first made in the 50's and MILLIONS of them have been made.

The cheapest price I have seen a NEW 870 12 gauge go for is right at $300 and that is for the 26 inch VR barrel. I don't know what the Express Tactical goes for, probably near $350. Then I look at the Pardner Pump Protector at $210. That's pretty hard to beat when you figure you're saving $150 that you could spend on practice ammo and other goodies. Heck for that much money you could replace what is thought to be the weakest parts in it and still have money left. REMINGTON 870 parts interchange with both the Pardner Pump and the IAC 982 Hawk, which is the one that comes with Ghost Ring sights out of the box.

I'd GLADLY buy a Remington if it was closer to the price. Heck I can't even find USED ones for lower than $270 or so. I guess people think that because it's a Remington 870, they can keep the price HIGH.
I haven't bought anything yet. I also really like the Benelli Super Nova tactical and would love to have one of those.

I'm just saying that if those Pardner Pump and IAC Hawk shotguns were JUNK, there would be posts all over the place saying so and SHOWING IT. I have found none. If you want to object to buying it cause it's made in CHINA, perfectly legitimate and I can understand that.

Nalajr

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Old 11-29-2013, 11:31   #44
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If you're looking for a cheap 870, wait outside of a pawnshop. You'll see someone heading to the shop with an 870. When you see them heading to the pawnshop stop them and tell then you'll buy the gun for $50 more than the pawnshop offers. If they agree, go into the shop so you can hear the offer. Once they are offered $125 or so for the gun by the pawn broker, you both can go out and you have the gun for $175. I have done that a few times when I was poorer and couldn't afford a new gun. Pisses off the pawnshop but you get a gun at a lesser price.
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Old 11-29-2013, 16:05   #45
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Walmart has Model 500 youth 20 gauge shotguns for $199.00. It is everything you need in a home defense shotgun - short LOP, short barrel, short overall length, screw in chokes, and good capacity 5+1.
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Old 11-29-2013, 16:25   #46
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Originally Posted by Nalapombu View Post

I'd GLADLY buy a Remington if it was closer to the price. Heck I can't even find USED ones for lower than $270 or so. I guess people think that because it's a Remington 870, they can keep the price HIGH.
I haven't bought anything yet. I also really like the Benelli Super Nova tactical and would love to have one of those.

I'm just saying that if those Pardner Pump and IAC Hawk shotguns were JUNK, there would be posts all over the place saying so and SHOWING IT. I have found none. If you want to object to buying it cause it's made in CHINA, perfectly legitimate and I can understand that.

Nalajr
The problem I see is the cost of labor. You're comparing a gun assembled by men and women in New York State (perhaps a union shop that pays a decent wage) versus likely slave labor in China paid a pitiful fraction of what Remington pays their employees. Plus Remington has to pay for liability, advertising, warranty, etc.
China, on the other hand, has to churn out a lookalike that they can sell you for comparatively little money. If that gun breaks, falls apart in your hands, injures you, whatever, then that's on you to figure something out, or maybe the store you got it from, or the parent company in the US.

However, who's making the lion's shake of the profit? Some factories in China are being so squeezed by American buyers that even the factory owners are in the poorhouse. Others are making off like bandits and the workers get the short end of the stick.

When it comes time to purchasing something, I always try to buy American, Canadian, European, Japanese, in hopes that somebody is making an honest living.
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Old 11-29-2013, 19:04   #47
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When it comes time to purchasing something, I always try to buy American, Canadian, European, Japanese, in hopes that somebody is making an honest living.
This seems to be the essence of what most people object to. It ain't got nothing to do with quality, functionality or reliability of of these shotguns, it has to do with them being made in a country whose politics, motivations and treatment of their citizens that many don't agree with or actively oppose. That makes it a perceived moral or ethical stand against said country. And that's fine I suppose, but the reality is that stand is being taken by people who drive cars full of parts made in China, watch TVs full of parts made in China, talk on cell phones full of parts made in China, live in homes full of objects and parts made in China and post on internet forums using their computers full a Chinese, "slave labor" parts.

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Old 11-29-2013, 19:07   #48
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Walmart has Model 500 youth 20 gauge shotguns for $199.00. It is everything you need in a home defense shotgun - short LOP, short barrel, short overall length, screw in chokes, and good capacity 5+1.
And if I could find that item for that price in my area, I'd buy one of those to give to my wife for Xmas. Best price I've seen on something like you are describing was $309 plus tax and fees, but it did include a longer VR hunting barrel.
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Old 11-30-2013, 07:52   #49
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Here's what I did to my IAC Hawk 981R:
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1504262

I haven't put hundreds of rounds through it yet but so far it's functioned as reliably as any 870 I've owned in the past. Not as pretty but who cares.

Terry
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Old 12-01-2013, 19:17   #50
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Good info guys.

I agree that the biggest problem people have with the IAC and Pardner Pump shotguns is that they are MADE in China. If they fell apart on you or broke after a box of shells, this wouldn't even be a topic of conversation. They'd be JUNK and everyone would know it.

If those same guns were made in MEXICO, there wouldn't be nearly the negative feedback on them that there is.

As was said, you couldn't count the number of CHINESE stuff in your house and car. EVERY cell phone these days starts in CHINA and most are made there. I know the APPLE phones are.

Nallajr
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