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Old 11-01-2013, 09:39   #161
WarCry
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Originally Posted by JuneyBooney View Post
The entire problem here is that some of you guys can't accept criticism of the number of rounds shot. Does it appear unreasonable? Yes, because the old man was not coming out with a gun. But here is the main question...would you as a civilian be able to shoot a person fourteen times and not get charged criminally? Probably not. Has society changed from the time I was trained? Yes. Has it gotten more violent? Yes. But if you are telling me that a man with fourteen shots to the heart or the femural artery will live or is chatting just fine, I think there is some hornswaggling going on. But I have seen men with small caliber .25 rounds get stuck in their skull and live and on rare occasion you do hear about people getting shot in the head with large caliber weapons and living but they are rare cases.

That is a good idea you have though..."police perfection academy".
How many of those rounds hit the guy? How many ended up over his shoulder in the dash, in the back door, in the seat-frames or the door-posts of the car? How many hit his heart, or an artery (and I've gotta say, if he was hit in the femoral artery while sitting in a car, that would be an impressive shot!)? Which shot killed the man, the first? The 5th? The 15th?

When you can answer these questions in less than the 4 seconds that it took him to fire the shots, then I'll take what you say to heart. But since you're talking with 5 days of review available since the initial post in this thread, I'd say you're the worst kind of judgmental, head-up-your-ass, know-it-all that so many here hate. And if you really are a cop - I can't speak to that, but if so, I hope you're not in any jurisdiction near me - I get the feeling that you're "that guy" that everyone else talks about when you're not around.

I respect all LEOs equally and highly until they give me a reason not to. If you are an LEO, you're giving every reason to have no respect for you because you're the absolute worst kind of Monday-morning quarterback.
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Last edited by WarCry; 11-01-2013 at 09:40..
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:42   #162
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What do you hope to achieve, what's your goal in posting in Cop Talk?
Russ, I was responding to the thread. I had no idea where it was posted. I think the video is very interesting and discussion of such events among reasonable people is good. Have a nice day.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:51   #163
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The entire problem here is that some of you guys can't accept criticism of the number of rounds shot. Does it appear unreasonable? Yes, because the old man was not coming out with a gun.
Can't accept the criticism that the officer knew at that time the number of rounds was sufficient to neutralize the threat within the 4 sec it took to fire all those shots that occurred after he should have known stopped the threat. There's a difference from what you said.

You could have known he was down rather than taking cover waiting for the LEO to pause to reload to spring out and attack?

How exactly would you know that in the 4 sec of continuous fire he was not merely waiting for a lull to resume the aborted attack?

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Old 11-01-2013, 09:57   #164
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Originally Posted by JuneyBooney View Post
The entire problem here is that some of you guys can't accept criticism of the number of rounds shot. Does it appear unreasonable? Yes, because the old man was not coming out with a gun. But here is the main question...would you as a civilian be able to shoot a person fourteen times and not get charged criminally? Probably not. Has society changed from the time I was trained? Yes. Has it gotten more violent? Yes. But if you are telling me that a man with fourteen shots to the heart or the femural artery will live or is chatting just fine, I think there is some hornswaggling going on. But I have seen men with small caliber .25 rounds get stuck in their skull and live and on rare occasion you do hear about people getting shot in the head with large caliber weapons and living but they are rare cases.

That is a good idea you have though..."police perfection academy".
FBI Miami Shootout.


2 BG's received mortal injuries, but didn't stop fighting for some time after that. In that time they injured or killed multiple FBI Agents.

You shoot until the threat is stopped.

By your account it is 3-4 seconds of shooting.

When did you observe the BG stop being a threat?

Give all of us a time index on the video so we can look at it.

Any shots fired after that would be excessive.

But if you can't tell when that is, then none of the shots are excessive.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:57   #165
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Ok now. Back in the 80's cops were just civilian men and women with normal haircuts etc. Then they changed and started looking and acting like military people with buzzcuts etc. The entire perception of leo changed.
Uhh, news flash. Most agencies adopted and maintained military grooming standards well before the 80s. So officers did look like their military peers. The only change was the tragic adoption of porn staches. And considering that the majority of cops in the 80s had prior military experience or service . . . and that peace officer agencies were directed to adopt a para-military style in rank and structure to avoid the cliche of "small town cops" and corruption as part of increasing professionalism in the 70s and 80s . . . I could go on.

Try again.
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Old 11-01-2013, 11:18   #166
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Originally Posted by JuneyBooney View Post
Russ, I was responding to the thread. I had no idea where it was posted. I think the video is very interesting and discussion of such events among reasonable people is good. Have a nice day.
At no time did you know you were in Cop Talk, responding to members of law enforcement?

That dog don't hunt.
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Old 11-01-2013, 11:26   #167
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It's easy to criticize with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, and the amount of criticism is directly proportionate to the critics level of ignorance.





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Old 11-01-2013, 12:17   #168
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The bottom line is the officer did the right thing. Case closed. Want or need proof? Okay, the officer is still alive.

That's all the proof I need.
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Old 11-01-2013, 12:47   #169
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Originally Posted by JuneyBooney View Post
Ok now. Back in the 80's cops were just civilian men and women with normal haircuts etc. Then they changed and started looking and acting like military people with buzzcuts etc. The entire perception of leo changed.

I am not arguing that some people may stay standing after being shot for a few seconds with most rounds but I am also telling you that in an area like New York or Dc area if that man had been a minority there could have been hell to pay if the family had not said he wanted to die by suicide by cop. Look at the crazy lady that came down from New York and was executed by the pd. Do you want a target on your back when out in public? I don't. The twenty year old kids all thought the woman was executed by pd. That could cause problems for leo in the future.

I agree with shooting until the threat is over but the cop could not assess the threat from his vantage point so we give credit to the let. I am not arguing the validity of the shooting except to say that there were probably some officers who could have taken him alive and many people who would believe the number of rounds shot to be excessive. If the man had opened the door and pointed the pellet gun I would have been fully supportive of his actions and round counts if the guy did not go down. But can't you tell the old guy is "geezing" in the video? He did not look like a large "strapping man" with body armor to me.

I was told at sixteen to keep my head out of there but I have seen many people and leos too that do place their heads there. Have a nice day.
You know what the greatest part of this is? I don't have to make a case. You opening your uninformed mouth and spouting your ignorance is doing it for me. Please, by all means, keep talking about a subject you are so obviously ignorant of and lack training or even common sense about.

Just because something offends your delicate sensibilities doesn't mean it violates a law, but obviously the only thing you give a rip about is how you feel, regardless of what the reality of the situation is. So bravo, Master Sniper Gunnery Sgt Hathcock, you are officially better than any LEO that has ever walked the Earth.

But we're not talking about you, Tactical Ted. We're talking about the LEO involved, and what he knew or believed at the time. And sadly, all your know-it-all pontificating bull**** won't change the fact what he did was absolutely appropriate given the information he had at the time.

So respectfully, **** off, because you obviously have no clue what you're doing here.
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Old 11-01-2013, 12:55   #170
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Oh, and for the record, I have personally helped a man shot 17 times in the head and torso to a hospital trauma room where he was treated, kept for 3 days and released to live a normal life.

So to save you the trouble of taking off your shoes to count that high, it's one more round on his body than the officer fired, assuming every single one of the officer's rounds hit home.

Now, tell me again how everyone shot once or twice drops like what? A sack of tater tots, was it? Please, I'm waiting with baited breath to hear your explanation for this one....

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Old 11-01-2013, 13:22   #171
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Oh, and for the record, I have personally helped a man shot 17 times in the head and torso to a hospital trauma room where he was treated, kept for 3 days and released to live a normal life.

So to save you the trouble of taking off your shoes to count that high, it's one more round on his body than the officer fired, assuming every single one of the officer's rounds hit home.

Now, tell me again how everyone shot once or twice drops like what? A sack of tater tots, was it? Please, I'm waiting with baited breath to hear your explanation for this one....

/thread....although, I do enjoy watching RussP, msu_grad, Volsbear, and others serving some up.

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Old 11-01-2013, 13:38   #172
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im not going to condemn him for defending himself but seriously?

16 ROUNDS?!?!


looked like they all went into the back of the guys head!!

why does he feel the need to dump a mag into him?

2 or 3 or 4 shots and then see if hes still coming at you! if i had to shoot and then dumped a mag i would go to jail for OVER use of force.

this guy wont, hes an LEO and will get the BOTD

he probably died after the first 2 rounds.

so again why 16 effing rounds???
If he has a guy pointing what he thinks is a gun at him, or drawing what he thinks is a gun for him, he doesn't have time to try to figure out a way to humanely defend himself. The only information the cop has is "This guy is drawing a gun on me.", so he put distance between himself and the guy and shot until the guy stopped moving.

To paraphrase the Ron White joke, he didn't know how many rounds it would take to stop the guy, but he knew how many he was gonna use.

I don't blame the cop at all. I am a non LEO non military vet, I do think some cops go overboard sometimes, but then again some truck drivers go overboard sometimes, some lawyers go overboard sometimes, we just don't see ONLY the negative example of them and form a bias against their profession like we do cops, though.
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Old 11-01-2013, 14:09   #173
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I guess 14 rounds is excessive too....

http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issu...mo-on-the-job/

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Old 11-01-2013, 14:54   #174
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Originally Posted by msu_grad_121 View Post
Oh, and for the record, I have personally helped a man shot 17 times in the head and torso to a hospital trauma room where he was treated, kept for 3 days and released to live a normal life.
What's his GNG handle? Our does HIPPA prevent disclosure?

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Old 11-01-2013, 15:25   #175
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Ok now. Back in the 80's cops were just civilian men and women with normal haircuts etc. Then they changed and started looking and acting like military people with buzzcuts etc. The entire perception of leo changed.
So the fact that I wear my hair short changes the perception of law enforcement? And people claim that we treat people differently based on how they look.

You sir, are literally too stupid to insult.
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Old 11-01-2013, 15:29   #176
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Ok now. Back in the 80's cops were just civilian men and women with normal haircuts etc. Then they changed and started looking and acting like military people with buzzcuts etc. The entire perception of leo changed.
You are a very misinformed person.
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Old 11-01-2013, 15:42   #177
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I guess 14 rounds is excessive too....

http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issu...mo-on-the-job/
Was there a threat after the third or fourth shot?
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Old 11-01-2013, 16:58   #178
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Was there a threat after the third or fourth shot?
Doesn't matter to kswiss and juneybooney. According to them, anything past 2 or 3 rounds is excessive, because 2 or 3 rounds is all it ever takes to solve any problem with a firearm. And they're both experts on ballistics and use of deadly force, so I think we should second guess, Monday morning quarterback and downright crucify the officer based on how we FEEL about what happened, as opposed to the reality of the situation.

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Old 11-01-2013, 17:01   #179
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So the fact that I wear my hair short changes the perception of law enforcement? And people claim that we treat people differently based on how they look.

You sir, are literally too stupid to insult.
I guess people hate me because I've got a bald head... So, should I blame male pattern baldness or the people stupid enough to judge me because I can't grow hair?


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Old 11-01-2013, 17:24   #180
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This place has really gone downhill with the crappy website layout, in your face advertising and quality of posters.
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