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Old 11-01-2013, 03:00   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JuneyBooney View Post
Two or three shots at that range would have probably finished him. But the leo was in fear for his life so I am not going to second guess him. .
So if the LEO shot once, waited 2 minutes, shot a second time, waited another 60 minutes and fired a third time you'd be good with that, right?
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Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 11-01-2013, 03:10   #142
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Originally Posted by TBO View Post
So if the LEO shot once, waited 2 minutes, shot a second time, waited another 60 minutes and fired a third time you'd be good with that, right?
Well, that would have been cruel and unusual punishment. Three shot burst is fine. Some leo may have not shot at all and gotten him out of the car alive. There are many ways to look at the same thing. But it is clear that the young officer believed the firearm to be real and pointed in his direction and he neutralized the threat. But I am telling you in a pc world that we all have to cover our sixes.
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Old 11-01-2013, 03:14   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JuneyBooney View Post
Well, that would have been cruel and unusual punishment. Three shot burst is fine. Some leo may have not shot at all and gotten him out of the car alive. There are many ways to look at the same thing. But it is clear that the young officer believed the firearm to be real and pointed in his direction and he neutralized the threat. But I am telling you in a pc world that we all have to cover our sixes.
LEO's are trained to shoot until the threat has ceased, which is what the officer did.

Did you see how he waited for backup to approach while keeping a bead on his target? He still wasn't completely certain the threat was eliminated at that point.

It's much easier to MMQB than to experience this type of situation in real life.
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Old 11-01-2013, 03:23   #144
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Originally Posted by JuneyBooney View Post
Well, that would have been cruel and unusual punishment. Three shot burst is fine. Some leo may have not shot at all and gotten him out of the car alive. There are many ways to look at the same thing. But it is clear that the young officer believed the firearm to be real and pointed in his direction and he neutralized the threat. But I am telling you in a pc world that we all have to cover our sixes.
What good does "covering your 6" do if it gets you shot/killed?

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Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 11-01-2013, 03:24   #145
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Originally Posted by 4949shooter View Post
LEO's are trained to shoot until the threat has ceased, which is what the officer did.

Did you see how he waited for backup to approach while keeping a bead on his target? He still wasn't completely certain the threat was eliminated at that point.

It's much easier to MMQB than to experience this type of situation in real life.
I agree but I don't think there is any question that the guy was probably down by the second shot. People drop like a bag of tater tots when shot. Been there and seen it happen close up. The young man was alone and probably scared crapless so it does make sense why he kept shooting.
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Old 11-01-2013, 03:27   #146
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Originally Posted by JuneyBooney View Post
I agree but I don't think there is any question that the guy was probably down by the second shot. People drop like a bag of tater tots when shot. Been there and seen it happen close up. The young man was alone and probably scared crapless so it does make sense why he kept shooting.
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Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 11-01-2013, 03:42   #147
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That is good.
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Old 11-01-2013, 03:54   #148
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Quote:
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I agree but I don't think there is any question that the guy was probably down by the second shot. People drop like a bag of tater tots when shot. Been there and seen it happen close up. The young man was alone and probably scared crapless so it does make sense why he kept shooting.
Because the officer couldn't see inside the car. If the guy was out of the car and on the ground, with the weapon laying out of his grasp, it would have been easier for the officer to access the threat.
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Old 11-01-2013, 03:58   #149
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Easy to MMQB, but until you have walked backwards 25 ft in his shorts firing at a guy that just tried to attack you with a pistol...

He probably either could not see the guy anymore, thinking him to be laying down possibly taking cover in the front seat; or he could see him, and he fell back into a seated position so it looked like he was still upright, and therefore his shots were ineffective: possibly missed, superficial hits, or wearing a vest, so not seeing a reaction to being shot he continued firing. For probably not even 10 seconds. Anyone actually time it?

Fake name, fake tags, obviously wanted for something to be concealing all leads to who he really is, trying to stay out of jail, THEN pulling a pistol when fakery is discovered adds up to a very desperate, determined guy who has vowed never to go back to prison, and you are all that's standing between him and freedom.

How many shots are justified if you cannot tell if that particular kind of threat is neutralized or not?

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Old 11-01-2013, 06:47   #150
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Some random thoughts...

It's always good that there is a positive conclusion to the investigation and the BG's motivation is uncovered (in this case it appears to be a suicide by cop, as related by family members).



Otherwise, the regular GNG band members of the USS TitanticallyAntiLEO would be calling for the LEO's head and slandering.

Also, I'm surprised so far we haven't heard the "It's only a BB gun" and "couldn't the Officer just shoot it out of his hand."
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Old 11-01-2013, 06:48   #151
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I'll put it this way. If I was that officer and I saw the driver with the gun in his hand that way, I'd be making damn sure he couldn't get out of the vehicle to use it on me.

When someone is that stupid (or brazen) to raise a gun up like that during a traffic stop, only one thing should come into the mind of the officer.......


Neutralize and Survive and that he did, and rightfully so.
Absolutely. The alternative is entirely too grave.

Honestly, once the shoot is justified, it makes no difference to me how many times you pull the trigger (barring some obvious TO THE OFFICER sign that the threat was gone). Justifiable force is justifiable force - whether it be one bullet from a pistol, 16, or a 2x4 to the cranium.

There's too much at stake.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/18617-po...nneth-c-jordan
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Old 11-01-2013, 07:31   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JuneyBooney View Post
Two or three shots at that range would have probably finished him. But the leo was in fear for his life so I am not going to second guess him. .
"Probably" only counts when you're picking lottery numbers.
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Old 11-01-2013, 07:57   #153
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Quote:
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I agree but I don't think there is any question that the guy was probably down by the second shot..
Like this guy?




Quote:
Originally Posted by JuneyBooney View Post
People drop like a bag of tater tots when shot...

Like this guy?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JuneyBooney View Post
Been there and seen it happen close up. The young man was alone and probably scared crapless so it does make sense why he kept shooting.
Incorrect. It made sense for him to keep shooting, because he has to assume the other guy is still a threat until evidence is presented otherwise.

The driver could very well have had body armor on and a 12 gauge sawn off hidden in the vehicle. Even if the bad guy slumped over GTA-style in the seat, does that mean he's dead...or does it mean he's just injured and still capable of fighting....or does it mean he's reaching for a hidden long arm?

Its a bit hard to conclusively tell on the street in under 2 tenths of a second. The officer did the right thing.
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:28   #154
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Quote:
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People drop like a bag of tater tots when shot. Been there and seen it happen close up.
I call absolute and total bull****. Even if your horse-hockey story is to be believed, and it's not, making this moronic blanket statement removes any and all credibility from what you say. There are rafts of people who have been shot and didn't drop like a bag of anything, so excuse me if I don't trust your ballistic "expertise" on a subject you so obviously have no clue about.

Furthermore, why do you keep mentioning how young the officer was? Does it matter? In your mind, would more rounds have been justified if the officer was older, or the suspect younger? "This young officer was obviously scared..." Yeah, just like every rational person age 8 to 80. Or are you saying you wouldn't have been scared?

The only thing I am truly curious about in this whole thing is how you and kswiss are able to bend over far enough to reach the keyboard, since your head is so obviously planted firmly up your ass?
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:38   #155
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Originally Posted by BlackFratelli View Post
Like this guy?


Miami Dade, FL Grow House Shooting with Police - Both angle side-by-side audio home security footage - YouTube





Like this guy?

[RAW/HQ] Oregon State Police Video Captures Fatal Freeway Shooting - YouTube



Incorrect. It made sense for him to keep shooting, because he has to assume the other guy is still a threat until evidence is presented otherwise.

The driver could very well have had body armor on and a 12 gauge sawn off hidden in the vehicle. Even if the bad guy slumped over GTA-style in the seat, does that mean he's dead...or does it mean he's just injured and still capable of fighting....or does it mean he's reaching for a hidden long arm?

Its a bit hard to conclusively tell on the street in under 2 tenths of a second. The officer did the right thing.
If the man's family had not come forward and said what they did and the man was Black there could have been serious complaints of excessive force. Just look at the Charlotte NC shooting where the cop shot ten times at an unarmed man. The guy in the car had a pellet gun. WE all have to use the "reasonable person" theory here. The old guy appeared kind of out of it to me. But suicide by cop did fit the incident very well. What you are saying is that if the man is propped up and then cop fired one hundred rounds it would have been ok...I say bs.
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Last edited by JuneyBooney; 11-01-2013 at 09:11..
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:56   #156
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Originally Posted by msu_grad_121 View Post
I call absolute and total bull****. Even if your horse-hockey story is to be believed, and it's not, making this moronic blanket statement removes any and all credibility from what you say. There are rafts of people who have been shot and didn't drop like a bag of anything, so excuse me if I don't trust your ballistic "expertise" on a subject you so obviously have no clue about.

Furthermore, why do you keep mentioning how young the officer was? Does it matter? In your mind, would more rounds have been justified if the officer was older, or the suspect younger? "This young officer was obviously scared..." Yeah, just like every rational person age 8 to 80. Or are you saying you wouldn't have been scared?

The only thing I am truly curious about in this whole thing is how you and kswiss are able to bend over far enough to reach the keyboard, since your head is so obviously planted firmly up your ass?
Ok now. Back in the 80's cops were just civilian men and women with normal haircuts etc. Then they changed and started looking and acting like military people with buzzcuts etc. The entire perception of leo changed.

I am not arguing that some people may stay standing after being shot for a few seconds with most rounds but I am also telling you that in an area like New York or Dc area if that man had been a minority there could have been hell to pay if the family had not said he wanted to die by suicide by cop. Look at the crazy lady that came down from New York and was executed by the pd. Do you want a target on your back when out in public? I don't. The twenty year old kids all thought the woman was executed by pd. That could cause problems for leo in the future.

I agree with shooting until the threat is over but the cop could not assess the threat from his vantage point so we give credit to the let. I am not arguing the validity of the shooting except to say that there were probably some officers who could have taken him alive and many people who would believe the number of rounds shot to be excessive. If the man had opened the door and pointed the pellet gun I would have been fully supportive of his actions and round counts if the guy did not go down. But can't you tell the old guy is "geezing" in the video? He did not look like a large "strapping man" with body armor to me.

I was told at sixteen to keep my head out of there but I have seen many people and leos too that do place their heads there. Have a nice day.
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:59   #157
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If the man's family had not come forward and said what they did and the man was Black there could have been serious complaints of excessive force. Just look at the Georgia shooting where the cop shot ten times at an unarmed man. The guy in the car had a pellet gun. WE all have to use the "reasonable person" theory here. The old guy appeared kind of out of it to me. But suicide by cop did fit the incident very well. What you are saying is that if the man is propped up and then cop fired one hundred rounds it would have been ok...I say bs.
I say BS at the idea of stopping a determined attacker with one shot.

People win the lottery,but that doesn't make it a primary investment strategy.If you can stop a threat with two shots fired, bravo-but a determined attacker will need more hits then that.Observe the case in Skokie IL of the bank robber who needed 14 rounds of .45 ACP persuasion to cease and desist.The late Jim Cirillo has shot bad guys with 12 gauge slugs who stayed in the fight.

Yes -if it took 1000 rounds to stop the scumbag, he is totally justified.The concept of hitting a guy twice COM with a pistol and the dude falling over dead is Hollywood bull.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:09   #158
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Ok now. Back in the 80's cops were just civilian men and women with normal haircuts etc. Then they changed and started looking and acting like military people with buzzcuts etc. The entire perception of leo changed.
You and kswiss need to go start a LEO training school, because between the two of you, you both seem to know all the magic ways to make people automatically stop dead after one or two magic bullet shots.

Did you completely ignore the posts on here by people who know, FIRST HAND, criminal with upwards of a dozen holes in them that were sitting up and talking? Doesn't sound like they dropped at ALL like tater tots to me (never had a bag of tots sitting and talking to me, so maybe you have some experience there I don't?)

I am not a cop, have never been a cop, will never be a cop, and I can smell the stink rolling off your posts way over here. You keep saying you're not going to judge the cop, then you go ahead and tells us all the stuff he did wrong. It's like starting a sentence with "No disrespect intended..." or "I don't mean to be insulting..." We all know what's coming next.

So, when does the Juney/Swiss School for Law Enforcement Perfection Without Question school open?


Quote:
Originally Posted by steveksux View Post
For probably not even 10 seconds. Anyone actually time it?

How many shots are justified if you cannot tell if that particular kind of threat is neutralized or not?

Randy
The first shot was fired at 0:38 in the video, the last at 0:42. So 4 seconds or less.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:27   #159
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You and kswiss need to go start a LEO training school, because between the two of you, you both seem to know all the magic ways to make people automatically stop dead after one or two magic bullet shots.

Did you completely ignore the posts on here by people who know, FIRST HAND, criminal with upwards of a dozen holes in them that were sitting up and talking? Doesn't sound like they dropped at ALL like tater tots to me (never had a bag of tots sitting and talking to me, so maybe you have some experience there I don't?)

I am not a cop, have never been a cop, will never be a cop, and I can smell the stink rolling off your posts way over here. You keep saying you're not going to judge the cop, then you go ahead and tells us all the stuff he did wrong. It's like starting a sentence with "No disrespect intended..." or "I don't mean to be insulting..." We all know what's coming next.

So, when does the Juney/Swiss School for Law Enforcement Perfection Without Question school open?




The first shot was fired at 0:38 in the video, the last at 0:42. So 4 seconds or less.
The entire problem here is that some of you guys can't accept criticism of the number of rounds shot. Does it appear unreasonable? Yes, because the old man was not coming out with a gun. But here is the main question...would you as a civilian be able to shoot a person fourteen times and not get charged criminally? Probably not. Has society changed from the time I was trained? Yes. Has it gotten more violent? Yes. But if you are telling me that a man with fourteen shots to the heart or the femural artery will live or is chatting just fine, I think there is some hornswaggling going on. But I have seen men with small caliber .25 rounds get stuck in their skull and live and on rare occasion you do hear about people getting shot in the head with large caliber weapons and living but they are rare cases.

That is a good idea you have though..."police perfection academy".
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:28   #160
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I did not see it either..I don't think he was empty. The guy seemed drunk to me. Interesting video.
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There are always ways that could be improved in a situation. One could argue that he could have said, "Freeze, mother..f" and see what the guy did. But in my observation the guy seemed drunk and non compliant and then they said he was not going back to jail so the suicide by cop fits to a tee. I am sure the leo remembers that all the time.
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The only thing that many would wonder is why he shot so many times but we did not see into the vehicle from the video. From what I have seen over the years race does play into these cases. I saw a White leo shoot a Black teenager when his firearm accidentally went off and he went to jail but when he had previously shot a White there was no outcry. I do wonder how this would have played if the family did not come out and say what they did and if the old lunatic was a minority.
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I noticed the pellet gun in his hand. If it was real he would have not been able to shoot like that but that is my opinion only. From the video it was obvious the young officer was in fear for his life and the lady officer placed him in the truck because she was afraid of him being railroaded. It really is an interesting video to dissect.
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Two or three shots at that range would have probably finished him. But the leo was in fear for his life so I am not going to second guess him. .
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Well, that would have been cruel and unusual punishment. Three shot burst is fine. Some leo may have not shot at all and gotten him out of the car alive. There are many ways to look at the same thing. But it is clear that the young officer believed the firearm to be real and pointed in his direction and he neutralized the threat. But I am telling you in a pc world that we all have to cover our sixes.
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I agree but I don't think there is any question that the guy was probably down by the second shot. People drop like a bag of tater tots when shot. Been there and seen it happen close up. The young man was alone and probably scared crapless so it does make sense why he kept shooting.
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If the man's family had not come forward and said what they did and the man was Black there could have been serious complaints of excessive force. Just look at the Georgia shooting where the cop shot ten times at an unarmed man. The guy in the car had a pellet gun. WE all have to use the "reasonable person" theory here. The old guy appeared kind of out of it to me. But suicide by cop did fit the incident very well. What you are saying is that if the man is propped up and then cop fired one hundred rounds it would have been ok...I say bs.
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Ok now. Back in the 80's cops were just civilian men and women with normal haircuts etc. Then they changed and started looking and acting like military people with buzzcuts etc. The entire perception of leo changed.

I am not arguing that some people may stay standing after being shot for a few seconds with most rounds but I am also telling you that in an area like New York or Dc area if that man had been a minority there could have been hell to pay if the family had not said he wanted to die by suicide by cop. Look at the crazy lady that came down from New York and was executed by the pd. Do you want a target on your back when out in public? I don't. The twenty year old kids all thought the woman was executed by pd. That could cause problems for leo in the future.

I agree with shooting until the threat is over but the cop could not assess the threat from his vantage point so we give credit to the let. I am not arguing the validity of the shooting except to say that there were probably some officers who could have taken him alive and many people who would believe the number of rounds shot to be excessive. If the man had opened the door and pointed the pellet gun I would have been fully supportive of his actions and round counts if the guy did not go down. But can't you tell the old guy is "geezing" in the video? He did not look like a large "strapping man" with body armor to me.

I was told at sixteen to keep my head out of there but I have seen many people and leos too that do place their heads there. Have a nice day.
What do you hope to achieve, what's your goal in posting in Cop Talk?
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Nov 11, 2013 at 16:42