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Old 11-01-2013, 06:48   #151
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Originally Posted by NEOH212 View Post
I'll put it this way. If I was that officer and I saw the driver with the gun in his hand that way, I'd be making damn sure he couldn't get out of the vehicle to use it on me.

When someone is that stupid (or brazen) to raise a gun up like that during a traffic stop, only one thing should come into the mind of the officer.......


Neutralize and Survive and that he did, and rightfully so.
Absolutely. The alternative is entirely too grave.

Honestly, once the shoot is justified, it makes no difference to me how many times you pull the trigger (barring some obvious TO THE OFFICER sign that the threat was gone). Justifiable force is justifiable force - whether it be one bullet from a pistol, 16, or a 2x4 to the cranium.

There's too much at stake.

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Old 11-01-2013, 07:31   #152
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Two or three shots at that range would have probably finished him. But the leo was in fear for his life so I am not going to second guess him. .
"Probably" only counts when you're picking lottery numbers.
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Old 11-01-2013, 07:57   #153
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I agree but I don't think there is any question that the guy was probably down by the second shot..
Like this guy?




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People drop like a bag of tater tots when shot...

Like this guy?


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Been there and seen it happen close up. The young man was alone and probably scared crapless so it does make sense why he kept shooting.
Incorrect. It made sense for him to keep shooting, because he has to assume the other guy is still a threat until evidence is presented otherwise.

The driver could very well have had body armor on and a 12 gauge sawn off hidden in the vehicle. Even if the bad guy slumped over GTA-style in the seat, does that mean he's dead...or does it mean he's just injured and still capable of fighting....or does it mean he's reaching for a hidden long arm?

Its a bit hard to conclusively tell on the street in under 2 tenths of a second. The officer did the right thing.
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:28   #154
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People drop like a bag of tater tots when shot. Been there and seen it happen close up.
I call absolute and total bull****. Even if your horse-hockey story is to be believed, and it's not, making this moronic blanket statement removes any and all credibility from what you say. There are rafts of people who have been shot and didn't drop like a bag of anything, so excuse me if I don't trust your ballistic "expertise" on a subject you so obviously have no clue about.

Furthermore, why do you keep mentioning how young the officer was? Does it matter? In your mind, would more rounds have been justified if the officer was older, or the suspect younger? "This young officer was obviously scared..." Yeah, just like every rational person age 8 to 80. Or are you saying you wouldn't have been scared?

The only thing I am truly curious about in this whole thing is how you and kswiss are able to bend over far enough to reach the keyboard, since your head is so obviously planted firmly up your ass?
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:38   #155
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Originally Posted by BlackFratelli View Post
Like this guy?


Miami Dade, FL Grow House Shooting with Police - Both angle side-by-side audio home security footage - YouTube





Like this guy?

[RAW/HQ] Oregon State Police Video Captures Fatal Freeway Shooting - YouTube



Incorrect. It made sense for him to keep shooting, because he has to assume the other guy is still a threat until evidence is presented otherwise.

The driver could very well have had body armor on and a 12 gauge sawn off hidden in the vehicle. Even if the bad guy slumped over GTA-style in the seat, does that mean he's dead...or does it mean he's just injured and still capable of fighting....or does it mean he's reaching for a hidden long arm?

Its a bit hard to conclusively tell on the street in under 2 tenths of a second. The officer did the right thing.
If the man's family had not come forward and said what they did and the man was Black there could have been serious complaints of excessive force. Just look at the Charlotte NC shooting where the cop shot ten times at an unarmed man. The guy in the car had a pellet gun. WE all have to use the "reasonable person" theory here. The old guy appeared kind of out of it to me. But suicide by cop did fit the incident very well. What you are saying is that if the man is propped up and then cop fired one hundred rounds it would have been ok...I say bs.

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Old 11-01-2013, 08:56   #156
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I call absolute and total bull****. Even if your horse-hockey story is to be believed, and it's not, making this moronic blanket statement removes any and all credibility from what you say. There are rafts of people who have been shot and didn't drop like a bag of anything, so excuse me if I don't trust your ballistic "expertise" on a subject you so obviously have no clue about.

Furthermore, why do you keep mentioning how young the officer was? Does it matter? In your mind, would more rounds have been justified if the officer was older, or the suspect younger? "This young officer was obviously scared..." Yeah, just like every rational person age 8 to 80. Or are you saying you wouldn't have been scared?

The only thing I am truly curious about in this whole thing is how you and kswiss are able to bend over far enough to reach the keyboard, since your head is so obviously planted firmly up your ass?
Ok now. Back in the 80's cops were just civilian men and women with normal haircuts etc. Then they changed and started looking and acting like military people with buzzcuts etc. The entire perception of leo changed.

I am not arguing that some people may stay standing after being shot for a few seconds with most rounds but I am also telling you that in an area like New York or Dc area if that man had been a minority there could have been hell to pay if the family had not said he wanted to die by suicide by cop. Look at the crazy lady that came down from New York and was executed by the pd. Do you want a target on your back when out in public? I don't. The twenty year old kids all thought the woman was executed by pd. That could cause problems for leo in the future.

I agree with shooting until the threat is over but the cop could not assess the threat from his vantage point so we give credit to the let. I am not arguing the validity of the shooting except to say that there were probably some officers who could have taken him alive and many people who would believe the number of rounds shot to be excessive. If the man had opened the door and pointed the pellet gun I would have been fully supportive of his actions and round counts if the guy did not go down. But can't you tell the old guy is "geezing" in the video? He did not look like a large "strapping man" with body armor to me.

I was told at sixteen to keep my head out of there but I have seen many people and leos too that do place their heads there. Have a nice day.
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:59   #157
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If the man's family had not come forward and said what they did and the man was Black there could have been serious complaints of excessive force. Just look at the Georgia shooting where the cop shot ten times at an unarmed man. The guy in the car had a pellet gun. WE all have to use the "reasonable person" theory here. The old guy appeared kind of out of it to me. But suicide by cop did fit the incident very well. What you are saying is that if the man is propped up and then cop fired one hundred rounds it would have been ok...I say bs.
I say BS at the idea of stopping a determined attacker with one shot.

People win the lottery,but that doesn't make it a primary investment strategy.If you can stop a threat with two shots fired, bravo-but a determined attacker will need more hits then that.Observe the case in Skokie IL of the bank robber who needed 14 rounds of .45 ACP persuasion to cease and desist.The late Jim Cirillo has shot bad guys with 12 gauge slugs who stayed in the fight.

Yes -if it took 1000 rounds to stop the scumbag, he is totally justified.The concept of hitting a guy twice COM with a pistol and the dude falling over dead is Hollywood bull.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:09   #158
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Ok now. Back in the 80's cops were just civilian men and women with normal haircuts etc. Then they changed and started looking and acting like military people with buzzcuts etc. The entire perception of leo changed.
You and kswiss need to go start a LEO training school, because between the two of you, you both seem to know all the magic ways to make people automatically stop dead after one or two magic bullet shots.

Did you completely ignore the posts on here by people who know, FIRST HAND, criminal with upwards of a dozen holes in them that were sitting up and talking? Doesn't sound like they dropped at ALL like tater tots to me (never had a bag of tots sitting and talking to me, so maybe you have some experience there I don't?)

I am not a cop, have never been a cop, will never be a cop, and I can smell the stink rolling off your posts way over here. You keep saying you're not going to judge the cop, then you go ahead and tells us all the stuff he did wrong. It's like starting a sentence with "No disrespect intended..." or "I don't mean to be insulting..." We all know what's coming next.

So, when does the Juney/Swiss School for Law Enforcement Perfection Without Question school open?


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For probably not even 10 seconds. Anyone actually time it?

How many shots are justified if you cannot tell if that particular kind of threat is neutralized or not?

Randy
The first shot was fired at 0:38 in the video, the last at 0:42. So 4 seconds or less.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:27   #159
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You and kswiss need to go start a LEO training school, because between the two of you, you both seem to know all the magic ways to make people automatically stop dead after one or two magic bullet shots.

Did you completely ignore the posts on here by people who know, FIRST HAND, criminal with upwards of a dozen holes in them that were sitting up and talking? Doesn't sound like they dropped at ALL like tater tots to me (never had a bag of tots sitting and talking to me, so maybe you have some experience there I don't?)

I am not a cop, have never been a cop, will never be a cop, and I can smell the stink rolling off your posts way over here. You keep saying you're not going to judge the cop, then you go ahead and tells us all the stuff he did wrong. It's like starting a sentence with "No disrespect intended..." or "I don't mean to be insulting..." We all know what's coming next.

So, when does the Juney/Swiss School for Law Enforcement Perfection Without Question school open?




The first shot was fired at 0:38 in the video, the last at 0:42. So 4 seconds or less.
The entire problem here is that some of you guys can't accept criticism of the number of rounds shot. Does it appear unreasonable? Yes, because the old man was not coming out with a gun. But here is the main question...would you as a civilian be able to shoot a person fourteen times and not get charged criminally? Probably not. Has society changed from the time I was trained? Yes. Has it gotten more violent? Yes. But if you are telling me that a man with fourteen shots to the heart or the femural artery will live or is chatting just fine, I think there is some hornswaggling going on. But I have seen men with small caliber .25 rounds get stuck in their skull and live and on rare occasion you do hear about people getting shot in the head with large caliber weapons and living but they are rare cases.

That is a good idea you have though..."police perfection academy".
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:28   #160
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I did not see it either..I don't think he was empty. The guy seemed drunk to me. Interesting video.
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There are always ways that could be improved in a situation. One could argue that he could have said, "Freeze, mother..f" and see what the guy did. But in my observation the guy seemed drunk and non compliant and then they said he was not going back to jail so the suicide by cop fits to a tee. I am sure the leo remembers that all the time.
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The only thing that many would wonder is why he shot so many times but we did not see into the vehicle from the video. From what I have seen over the years race does play into these cases. I saw a White leo shoot a Black teenager when his firearm accidentally went off and he went to jail but when he had previously shot a White there was no outcry. I do wonder how this would have played if the family did not come out and say what they did and if the old lunatic was a minority.
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I noticed the pellet gun in his hand. If it was real he would have not been able to shoot like that but that is my opinion only. From the video it was obvious the young officer was in fear for his life and the lady officer placed him in the truck because she was afraid of him being railroaded. It really is an interesting video to dissect.
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Two or three shots at that range would have probably finished him. But the leo was in fear for his life so I am not going to second guess him. .
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Well, that would have been cruel and unusual punishment. Three shot burst is fine. Some leo may have not shot at all and gotten him out of the car alive. There are many ways to look at the same thing. But it is clear that the young officer believed the firearm to be real and pointed in his direction and he neutralized the threat. But I am telling you in a pc world that we all have to cover our sixes.
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I agree but I don't think there is any question that the guy was probably down by the second shot. People drop like a bag of tater tots when shot. Been there and seen it happen close up. The young man was alone and probably scared crapless so it does make sense why he kept shooting.
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Originally Posted by JuneyBooney View Post
If the man's family had not come forward and said what they did and the man was Black there could have been serious complaints of excessive force. Just look at the Georgia shooting where the cop shot ten times at an unarmed man. The guy in the car had a pellet gun. WE all have to use the "reasonable person" theory here. The old guy appeared kind of out of it to me. But suicide by cop did fit the incident very well. What you are saying is that if the man is propped up and then cop fired one hundred rounds it would have been ok...I say bs.
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Ok now. Back in the 80's cops were just civilian men and women with normal haircuts etc. Then they changed and started looking and acting like military people with buzzcuts etc. The entire perception of leo changed.

I am not arguing that some people may stay standing after being shot for a few seconds with most rounds but I am also telling you that in an area like New York or Dc area if that man had been a minority there could have been hell to pay if the family had not said he wanted to die by suicide by cop. Look at the crazy lady that came down from New York and was executed by the pd. Do you want a target on your back when out in public? I don't. The twenty year old kids all thought the woman was executed by pd. That could cause problems for leo in the future.

I agree with shooting until the threat is over but the cop could not assess the threat from his vantage point so we give credit to the let. I am not arguing the validity of the shooting except to say that there were probably some officers who could have taken him alive and many people who would believe the number of rounds shot to be excessive. If the man had opened the door and pointed the pellet gun I would have been fully supportive of his actions and round counts if the guy did not go down. But can't you tell the old guy is "geezing" in the video? He did not look like a large "strapping man" with body armor to me.

I was told at sixteen to keep my head out of there but I have seen many people and leos too that do place their heads there. Have a nice day.
What do you hope to achieve, what's your goal in posting in Cop Talk?
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:39   #161
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The entire problem here is that some of you guys can't accept criticism of the number of rounds shot. Does it appear unreasonable? Yes, because the old man was not coming out with a gun. But here is the main question...would you as a civilian be able to shoot a person fourteen times and not get charged criminally? Probably not. Has society changed from the time I was trained? Yes. Has it gotten more violent? Yes. But if you are telling me that a man with fourteen shots to the heart or the femural artery will live or is chatting just fine, I think there is some hornswaggling going on. But I have seen men with small caliber .25 rounds get stuck in their skull and live and on rare occasion you do hear about people getting shot in the head with large caliber weapons and living but they are rare cases.

That is a good idea you have though..."police perfection academy".
How many of those rounds hit the guy? How many ended up over his shoulder in the dash, in the back door, in the seat-frames or the door-posts of the car? How many hit his heart, or an artery (and I've gotta say, if he was hit in the femoral artery while sitting in a car, that would be an impressive shot!)? Which shot killed the man, the first? The 5th? The 15th?

When you can answer these questions in less than the 4 seconds that it took him to fire the shots, then I'll take what you say to heart. But since you're talking with 5 days of review available since the initial post in this thread, I'd say you're the worst kind of judgmental, head-up-your-ass, know-it-all that so many here hate. And if you really are a cop - I can't speak to that, but if so, I hope you're not in any jurisdiction near me - I get the feeling that you're "that guy" that everyone else talks about when you're not around.

I respect all LEOs equally and highly until they give me a reason not to. If you are an LEO, you're giving every reason to have no respect for you because you're the absolute worst kind of Monday-morning quarterback.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:42   #162
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What do you hope to achieve, what's your goal in posting in Cop Talk?
Russ, I was responding to the thread. I had no idea where it was posted. I think the video is very interesting and discussion of such events among reasonable people is good. Have a nice day.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:51   #163
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The entire problem here is that some of you guys can't accept criticism of the number of rounds shot. Does it appear unreasonable? Yes, because the old man was not coming out with a gun.
Can't accept the criticism that the officer knew at that time the number of rounds was sufficient to neutralize the threat within the 4 sec it took to fire all those shots that occurred after he should have known stopped the threat. There's a difference from what you said.

You could have known he was down rather than taking cover waiting for the LEO to pause to reload to spring out and attack?

How exactly would you know that in the 4 sec of continuous fire he was not merely waiting for a lull to resume the aborted attack?

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Old 11-01-2013, 09:57   #164
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The entire problem here is that some of you guys can't accept criticism of the number of rounds shot. Does it appear unreasonable? Yes, because the old man was not coming out with a gun. But here is the main question...would you as a civilian be able to shoot a person fourteen times and not get charged criminally? Probably not. Has society changed from the time I was trained? Yes. Has it gotten more violent? Yes. But if you are telling me that a man with fourteen shots to the heart or the femural artery will live or is chatting just fine, I think there is some hornswaggling going on. But I have seen men with small caliber .25 rounds get stuck in their skull and live and on rare occasion you do hear about people getting shot in the head with large caliber weapons and living but they are rare cases.

That is a good idea you have though..."police perfection academy".
FBI Miami Shootout.


2 BG's received mortal injuries, but didn't stop fighting for some time after that. In that time they injured or killed multiple FBI Agents.

You shoot until the threat is stopped.

By your account it is 3-4 seconds of shooting.

When did you observe the BG stop being a threat?

Give all of us a time index on the video so we can look at it.

Any shots fired after that would be excessive.

But if you can't tell when that is, then none of the shots are excessive.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:57   #165
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Ok now. Back in the 80's cops were just civilian men and women with normal haircuts etc. Then they changed and started looking and acting like military people with buzzcuts etc. The entire perception of leo changed.
Uhh, news flash. Most agencies adopted and maintained military grooming standards well before the 80s. So officers did look like their military peers. The only change was the tragic adoption of porn staches. And considering that the majority of cops in the 80s had prior military experience or service . . . and that peace officer agencies were directed to adopt a para-military style in rank and structure to avoid the cliche of "small town cops" and corruption as part of increasing professionalism in the 70s and 80s . . . I could go on.

Try again.
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Old 11-01-2013, 11:18   #166
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Russ, I was responding to the thread. I had no idea where it was posted. I think the video is very interesting and discussion of such events among reasonable people is good. Have a nice day.
At no time did you know you were in Cop Talk, responding to members of law enforcement?

That dog don't hunt.
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Old 11-01-2013, 11:26   #167
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Old 11-01-2013, 12:17   #168
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The bottom line is the officer did the right thing. Case closed. Want or need proof? Okay, the officer is still alive.

That's all the proof I need.
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Old 11-01-2013, 12:47   #169
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Ok now. Back in the 80's cops were just civilian men and women with normal haircuts etc. Then they changed and started looking and acting like military people with buzzcuts etc. The entire perception of leo changed.

I am not arguing that some people may stay standing after being shot for a few seconds with most rounds but I am also telling you that in an area like New York or Dc area if that man had been a minority there could have been hell to pay if the family had not said he wanted to die by suicide by cop. Look at the crazy lady that came down from New York and was executed by the pd. Do you want a target on your back when out in public? I don't. The twenty year old kids all thought the woman was executed by pd. That could cause problems for leo in the future.

I agree with shooting until the threat is over but the cop could not assess the threat from his vantage point so we give credit to the let. I am not arguing the validity of the shooting except to say that there were probably some officers who could have taken him alive and many people who would believe the number of rounds shot to be excessive. If the man had opened the door and pointed the pellet gun I would have been fully supportive of his actions and round counts if the guy did not go down. But can't you tell the old guy is "geezing" in the video? He did not look like a large "strapping man" with body armor to me.

I was told at sixteen to keep my head out of there but I have seen many people and leos too that do place their heads there. Have a nice day.
You know what the greatest part of this is? I don't have to make a case. You opening your uninformed mouth and spouting your ignorance is doing it for me. Please, by all means, keep talking about a subject you are so obviously ignorant of and lack training or even common sense about.

Just because something offends your delicate sensibilities doesn't mean it violates a law, but obviously the only thing you give a rip about is how you feel, regardless of what the reality of the situation is. So bravo, Master Sniper Gunnery Sgt Hathcock, you are officially better than any LEO that has ever walked the Earth.

But we're not talking about you, Tactical Ted. We're talking about the LEO involved, and what he knew or believed at the time. And sadly, all your know-it-all pontificating bull**** won't change the fact what he did was absolutely appropriate given the information he had at the time.

So respectfully, **** off, because you obviously have no clue what you're doing here.
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Old 11-01-2013, 12:55   #170
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Oh, and for the record, I have personally helped a man shot 17 times in the head and torso to a hospital trauma room where he was treated, kept for 3 days and released to live a normal life.

So to save you the trouble of taking off your shoes to count that high, it's one more round on his body than the officer fired, assuming every single one of the officer's rounds hit home.

Now, tell me again how everyone shot once or twice drops like what? A sack of tater tots, was it? Please, I'm waiting with baited breath to hear your explanation for this one....

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Old 11-01-2013, 13:22   #171
Kelo6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msu_grad_121 View Post
Oh, and for the record, I have personally helped a man shot 17 times in the head and torso to a hospital trauma room where he was treated, kept for 3 days and released to live a normal life.

So to save you the trouble of taking off your shoes to count that high, it's one more round on his body than the officer fired, assuming every single one of the officer's rounds hit home.

Now, tell me again how everyone shot once or twice drops like what? A sack of tater tots, was it? Please, I'm waiting with baited breath to hear your explanation for this one....

/thread....although, I do enjoy watching RussP, msu_grad, Volsbear, and others serving some up.

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Old 11-01-2013, 13:38   #172
s&wfan
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Originally Posted by kswiss View Post
im not going to condemn him for defending himself but seriously?

16 ROUNDS?!?!


looked like they all went into the back of the guys head!!

why does he feel the need to dump a mag into him?

2 or 3 or 4 shots and then see if hes still coming at you! if i had to shoot and then dumped a mag i would go to jail for OVER use of force.

this guy wont, hes an LEO and will get the BOTD

he probably died after the first 2 rounds.

so again why 16 effing rounds???
If he has a guy pointing what he thinks is a gun at him, or drawing what he thinks is a gun for him, he doesn't have time to try to figure out a way to humanely defend himself. The only information the cop has is "This guy is drawing a gun on me.", so he put distance between himself and the guy and shot until the guy stopped moving.

To paraphrase the Ron White joke, he didn't know how many rounds it would take to stop the guy, but he knew how many he was gonna use.

I don't blame the cop at all. I am a non LEO non military vet, I do think some cops go overboard sometimes, but then again some truck drivers go overboard sometimes, some lawyers go overboard sometimes, we just don't see ONLY the negative example of them and form a bias against their profession like we do cops, though.
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Old 11-01-2013, 14:09   #173
Schaffer
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I guess 14 rounds is excessive too....

http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issu...mo-on-the-job/

Last edited by Schaffer; 11-01-2013 at 14:12..
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Old 11-01-2013, 14:54   #174
steveksux
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Originally Posted by msu_grad_121 View Post
Oh, and for the record, I have personally helped a man shot 17 times in the head and torso to a hospital trauma room where he was treated, kept for 3 days and released to live a normal life.
What's his GNG handle? Our does HIPPA prevent disclosure?

Randy

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Last edited by steveksux; 11-01-2013 at 14:54..
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Old 11-01-2013, 15:25   #175
DaBigBR
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Originally Posted by JuneyBooney View Post
Ok now. Back in the 80's cops were just civilian men and women with normal haircuts etc. Then they changed and started looking and acting like military people with buzzcuts etc. The entire perception of leo changed.
So the fact that I wear my hair short changes the perception of law enforcement? And people claim that we treat people differently based on how they look.

You sir, are literally too stupid to insult.
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