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Old 10-29-2013, 19:27   #101
eaglefrq
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Originally Posted by kswiss View Post
how does that work? why would one go to jail if they did everything right?

not arguing just asking
Look up Larry Hickey from Tucson, AZ. He was attacked in his driveway by 3 people. He was justified in the use of his firearm to defend himself, yet he was still prosecuted. He spent at least 70 days in jail before his trial. He ultimately was cleared after two trials ended in a hung jury.
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Old 10-29-2013, 19:57   #102
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Look up Larry Hickey from Tucson, AZ. He was attacked in his driveway by 3 people. He was justified in the use of his firearm to defend himself, yet he was still prosecuted. He spent at least 70 days in jail before his trial. He ultimately was cleared after two trials ended in a hung jury.

http://www.shastadefense.com/ArmedCi...ork_2010-9.pdf
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Old 10-29-2013, 23:31   #103
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It's not so much that a suspect who is good for 1 shot is good for them all, but if the suspect is good for 1 shot, he is good for all the rest of the shots that are needed to put him down. Once the threat is gone, you stop shooting, and not one second before. If you need to keep reloading and firing until you empty both of your reloads on the belt and the 3 mags in your warbag to neutralize the threat, then that is what you do. If you only needed 1 shot to neutralize it, then that is when you stop. Very simple concept.
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Old 10-30-2013, 02:57   #104
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Originally Posted by eaglefrq View Post
Look up Larry Hickey from Tucson, AZ. He was attacked in his driveway by 3 people. He was justified in the use of his firearm to defend himself, yet he was still prosecuted. He spent at least 70 days in jail before his trial. He ultimately was cleared after two trials ended in a hung jury.
Is that butthurt keeping you from sitting?

Look up the Berkley pepper spray cop, who was fired for using OC to stop false imprisonment.

People make decisions on what other people do. Whether it's your neighbors, an angry mob of hippies, internet pundits, or juries. They often get it wrong.

You can't live your life by their whims.
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Old 10-30-2013, 06:01   #105
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Is that butthurt keeping you from sitting?

Look up the Berkley pepper spray cop, who was fired for using OC to stop false imprisonment.

People make decisions on what other people do. Whether it's your neighbors, an angry mob of hippies, internet pundits, or juries. They often get it wrong.

You can't live your life by their whims.
What the hell are you talking about?

He asked for an example of someone who went to jail even though they did everything right. I gave him one example of how that can happen and a brief synopsis.

I don't have a problem with this incident. I'm not a LEO, but it looked justified to me.
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Old 10-30-2013, 06:09   #106
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how does that work? why would one go to jail if they did everything right?

not arguing just asking
The previous case cited above is one example.

There's also been a number of LEOs involved in on-duty shootings who were afterwards arrested by orders from their Chiefs. Most, if not all, go through trials and the juries declare them innocent.

Politics? Yes, I'd say politics played a very large part of the Chiefs' decisions.
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Old 10-30-2013, 09:52   #107
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well, you have quite a bit more than i sir,


to answer your question directly.. i have none. flame suit on

No worries. Your comments led me to believe that was the case, and that's why I asked.

I would strongly urge that you get some good training. Especially if you carry a firearm. That training could save your life some day, and you'll be glad you have it.

And yeah, I'd get that flame suit handy.

CopTalk is a solid forum full of guys and gals who put themselves into these exact situations on a daily basis. Best to educate yourself (I.E: read what these guys are saying) before posting, and try not to poke the bear

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Old 10-30-2013, 12:52   #108
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How many rounds would he tell you he fired? In that moment, when they sat him down in the truck (presumably to talk to him in the immediate aftermath), how many shots would he tell he shot?
Yeah, it's a question that's gonna be tough to answer truthfully right after the situation... the best answer of course is "I don't know".

Beyond that though, I think her putting him in the car was for far different reasons... given what has come out about the department trying to fire this officer, and failing, etc.. I think their goal was to get him away from everyone and quiet. When she puts him in the truck she says. "Not a word" (obviously not wanting him to incriminate himself on his body cam or the truck dashcam). I think that was her way of saying "STFU till you have an attorney" and he replies, "it's all on my body cam" right as the video cuts off.
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Old 10-31-2013, 04:01   #109
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Am I missing something? I didn't see him go to slide lock.
I did not see it either..I don't think he was empty. The guy seemed drunk to me. Interesting video.
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Old 10-31-2013, 05:19   #110
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im not going to condemn him for defending himself but seriously?

16 ROUNDS?!?!


looked like they all went into the back of the guys head!!

why does he feel the need to dump a mag into him?

2 or 3 or 4 shots and then see if hes still coming at you! if i had to shoot and then dumped a mag i would go to jail for OVER use of force.

this guy wont, hes an LEO and will get the BOTD

he probably died after the first 2 rounds.

so again why 16 effing rounds???
We quit using the 2 shots and assess "method" years ago.

If deadly force is authorized it doesn't matter if you fire once, or a thousand times.

So.... You know that you'd do a better job? Interesting....


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Old 10-31-2013, 05:24   #111
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We quit using the 2 shots and assess "method" years ago.

If deadly force is authorized it doesn't matter if you fire once, or a thousand times.

So.... You know that you'd do a better job? Interesting....


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My 'beloved' employer still teaches 2 shots and assess. I suspect that if one of our people were in a similar situation, they would at the very least be told that, since they acted 'outside the umbrella', if the case went to court, the state would not back them.
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Old 10-31-2013, 05:44   #112
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not even close,

I love extra capacity but as I said earlier, I personally just wouldn't blast 16 rounds into someone,

not flaming the officer, just stating what I wouldn't do
You know this how?


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Old 10-31-2013, 08:59   #113
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My 'beloved' employer still teaches 2 shots and assess. I suspect that if one of our people were in a similar situation, they would at the very least be told that, since they acted 'outside the umbrella', if the case went to court, the state would not back them.
The good thing is that NC law doesn't say "2 shots and assess."

I imagine they put him in another car for multiple reasons, all good ones. Sit him down. Get him away from his car and the scene. Give him time to calm down some. Get him away from everyone asking questions.
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Old 10-31-2013, 09:06   #114
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I don't really see a problem with the number of shots he fired, especially since the guy was in a car. However, if there were two or more guys present, I would see a problem with firing 16 shots as ammo needs to be preserved.

But, I don't really think firing 16 shots would blow over too well in a self-defense scenario.
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Old 10-31-2013, 09:14   #115
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I don't really see a problem with the number of shots he fired, especially since the guy was in a car. However, if there were two or more guys present, I would see a problem with firing 16 shots as ammo needs to be preserved.

But, I don't really think firing 16 shots would blow over too well in a self-defense scenario.
Being dead or in ICU would work out even less then that.

Hollywood's presented us with a false social expectation that a person should drop dead after two hits with a handgun. Reality has other ideas.

There are likely thousands of hardened thugs walking about our prisons with pistol caliber holes in their bodies.
There are piles of OIS reports where suspects absorbed the greater part of a 50 round box of ammunition to no effect.

The idea that you'll be able to pick off a person with one or two shots to the head under stress is wishful thinking, unless you can afford to shoot 1000 odd rounds a week(most LEOs cant) or have a long arm when the feces hits the blades. Even then- the bad guy might just shrug it off. Apologies to the legacy of Jeff Cooper, but even a .45 ACP to the skull is no assurance of stopping the assault.
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Old 10-31-2013, 09:18   #116
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The good thing is that NC law doesn't say "2 shots and assess."

I imagine they put him in another car for multiple reasons, all good ones. Sit him down. Get him away from his car and the scene. Give him time to calm down some. Get him away from everyone asking questions.
Good info. Thanks.
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Old 10-31-2013, 09:22   #117
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There are likely thousands of hardened thugs walking about our prisons with pistol caliber holes in their bodies.
There are piles of OIS reports where suspects absorbed the greater part of a 50 round box of ammunition to no effect.

.
I have known several, including one crispy critter who will spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair, wearing Depends.

Life has its consequences.
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Old 10-31-2013, 09:34   #118
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I think if presented with a similar situation, most people would peform a mag dump or close to it. If you fire say 5 rounds, how can you say how many hit, or how many are stopping hits?

The gun is clearly visible and looks real. Sad that the officer had to and will continue to go through this situation.
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Old 10-31-2013, 09:44   #119
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FWIW, I would like to suggest an excellent book for those fellow citizens who have questions about the use of force in this incident. The book is getting a little dated as far as firearm choices, but it will give you an excellent foundation for decisions about justification of the use of, and amount of, justifiable force in citizen ccw situations.

In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection
by Massad F. Ayoob


Disclaimer: I am not a cop.


.

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Old 10-31-2013, 10:51   #120
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I have known several, including one crispy critter who will spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair, wearing Depends.

Life has its consequences.
I've had lots and lots and lots of guys on probation who have bullet holes in them including one that took 9 rounds of 9mm at point blank range and lived. Lots and lots and lots more have been party to inflicting gunshot wounds and are walking among us.
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