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Old 10-28-2013, 21:04   #81
Morris
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Kswiss,

Please familiarize yourself with the term "minimum standard response." Come back to me when you have a definition to the term.
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Old 10-28-2013, 21:10   #82
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Prayers for the officer and his family. I'm sure this is a very traumatic experience and he will need the support of friends and family.

Also, prayers for the family of the suspect. They will have to live with the consequences of his actions.
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Old 10-28-2013, 21:27   #83
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Sounds like the family has pretty much come out and said that this was the suspect's fault and that they don't want the officer to feel bad for it. Good for them, I'm glad they're reaching out.
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Old 10-28-2013, 21:47   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilrain View Post
Cop Talk
Holy smokes!

I missed the gun in the video no matter how hard I looked... I'd say if that was staring you down, you'd have a hard time blaming anyone for shooting.

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Old 10-28-2013, 23:02   #85
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Notice the black band on the back-up officers badge, not a good day to pull a bb-gun.
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Old 10-29-2013, 06:25   #86
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Originally Posted by kswiss View Post
not even close,

I love extra capacity but as I said earlier, I personally just wouldn't blast 16 rounds into someone,

not flaming the officer, just stating what I wouldn't do
Ok. Then you need to accept the very real possibility that by failing to use adequate force, you have condemned yourself to die in a gun fight.
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Old 10-29-2013, 06:30   #87
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Originally Posted by Top_Shot_31 View Post
Kswiss, you are acting like he took time to line up each and every single shot he took.

My non-precise calculation using my stopwatch tells me that the officer fired 16 rounds in right around 3.5 seconds. Perhaps the officer here was thinking "I need to make sure I kill this guy deader than hell just because." Or, perhaps somewhere in his mind, he was thinking of South Carolina Trooper Mark Coates. I'll quote his page on ODMP for you.



http://www.odmp.org/officer/420-troo...-hunter-coates

Tropper Coates only fired 5 shots (which you probably find excessive), and he only hit the suspect all five times center-mass, and guess what? It wasn't enough, and he lost the fight.

Enough with the MMQB bull****. This was a good shoot, and I don't know a single police officer who would fault you if you handled the situation exactly the same way.
This one was awful. I tell people this story all the time.
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Old 10-29-2013, 07:41   #88
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Originally Posted by Kelo6 View Post
kswiss, if you don't mind me asking, how long have you been carrying? Because it would appear in this thread that you don't even have your carry permit yet:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1506891




How much training have you had in use of force? How much training about your state laws? And how long have you been carrying?



that thread is about my renewal, boss,

been carrying for a handful of years, what about you?
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:08   #89
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Originally Posted by kswiss View Post
that thread is about my renewal, boss,

been carrying for a handful of years, what about you?
Well, then, hopefully soon you'll get to use that renewal.
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:19   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilrain View Post
Cop Talk
Thanks. I missed that when watching. I'm going to watch it again to see. But that gives me a good idea to go frame by frame when reviewing it for a shooting. Thanks
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:25   #91
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kswiss,

I'll direct this post to you, but a couple others have chimed in. I disagree with the comment that "If you're justified to shoot once, you're justified to shoot 16 times." That's wrong. Once the imminent threat of deadly physical force is over, you are no longer justified to shoot. If the imminent threat of deadly physical force (as defined by NC statute) is over after 2 rounds, you stop. If it is over after 20 rounds, you stop. The amount of ammunition expended does not dictate when you stop, it's when the threat is over.

If you shoot and the suspect is down and he grabs for his gun, is the threat over? What about if he doesn't grab for his gun?

You have to justify every round you fire. If you say to me "I saw he was down, but I just kept on shooting anyway." We are going to have a problem. If you can articulate why you did what you did, then you have a much surer footing. But also keep in mind that we don't just rely on your word. We look at all the evidence and go from there.

But you must know the laws in your state and what they say about using deadly force, etc. If you want to discuss this, we can. But the only surefire way to get legal advice in your state is to consult an attorney about it. It might be worth the one hour fee to get all the nitty gritty details understood before you ever have to use your gun.
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Old 10-29-2013, 12:04   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top_Shot_31 View Post


http://www.odmp.org/officer/420-troo...-hunter-coates

Tropper Coates only fired 5 shots (which you probably find excessive), and he only hit the suspect all five times center-mass, and guess what? It wasn't enough, and he lost the fight.
That and the Dinkheller video are the most disturbing LEO shooting videos I've ever seen. Mainly because they were both so preventable.

A few tactical mistakes cost him his life. The one that always stuck out to me, was Coates checking Blackburn's pockets while facing him rather than turning him around to "assume the position". That allowed Blackburn to get the drop on Coates, who was in much better physical shape than Blackburn, and get Coates onto his back. After the SHTF though, he did everything right, and plugged him 5x with a .357. Unfortunately, Blackburn had a lot of "natural" body armor...

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Old 10-29-2013, 12:20   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top_Shot_31 View Post
Kswiss, you are acting like he took time to line up each and every single shot he took.

Kswiss, If you look at the video again starting around 2:54 as the officer is approaching the vehicle again, I can easily count 4 rounds in the back door. The rear door has 2 windows and both are broken. Yes, it's possible that they broke from the rounds impacting the door. However, I could easily guesstimate at least 4-7 rounds went into the back door and windows.

Why? Possibly the suspect was swaying left and right? Possibly due to panic firing?

The last advanced pistol class I took was the NRA PPOH (Personal Protection Outside the Home), and the instructor stated, the "double tap" method of shooting is no longer taught. You shoot until the threat is stopped. That could mean 1 round or 30 rounds.
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Old 10-29-2013, 12:20   #94
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clean shoot, good for him.
I agree with the reload comments...
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Old 10-29-2013, 13:07   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kswiss View Post
that thread is about my renewal, boss,

been carrying for a handful of years, what about you?
That's what I was wondering! It kinda sounded that way, but I couldn't quite tell.

As you can see in that thread, I just got my permit at the end of August, so I've only been carrying for two months

But the main point of my question (which you didn't answer) was about training background.


Just so you think I'm not being a one-sided troll, here is my background:

I spent two years volunteering with a local Sheriff's Office as a cadet. Did a bit of firearms training and competition (took 2nd place out of a couple hundred cadets, actually), did active shooter training, learned quite a bit about use-of-force training (both physical force and deadly physical force), got to do a lot of traffic stop scenarios, and when I was out on patrol with the real cops, I got to see a lot of traffic stops first hand (and use of force), and I also got to spend some quality time watching, learning from, and thinking about dashcam footage.

I have never been shot at, never been a certified officer in my state, and don't pretend to know more than I do. But I have had the great opportunity to learn from, and be trained by, several officers and deputies from the agency I volunteered with and others.


My issue with the video is that due to the placement of the body-worn camera we can't see much of anything. We can't see what the suspect was doing while the officer was shooting. We can't see what the officer was seeing. If he was seeing those rounds take effect or if it looked like they weren't hitting the suspect. All we can see is the officers nice firing grip and the slide cycling.

As others have mentioned, the of shooting into a car are unpredictable at best. Especially when shooting from that angle. If you look closely at the part where the officer approaches the vehicle after the shooting, you see bullet holes in several places on the rear car door, broken windows, etc. Not every single one of those rounds went into the suspect.

The "shoot twice and assess" method is dead (pun intended) and extremely dangerous.

If lethal force is justified, it doesn't matter if you use a gun or vehicle or another object. If that video had gone the other way, and while initiating the stop the driver got out and started shooting at the officer, he (the officer) would have been legally justified in ramming him with his patrol car.


With all of these shootings, it is more and more apparent that you don't know how many rounds it will take. That varies from suspect to suspect (especially the obese ones who have built-in body armor as COM hits never reach vital organs due to all the fat), and can even depend on the clothing worn. Ever see the story about the officers trying to use a TAZER on the football player at a game? The probes never reached skin. But I digress.


Real world example (I know this one's been around):

http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issu...mo-on-the-job/

14 hits total. Six of them would be considered "fatal". It took three hits to the suspects head to stop him, and when EMS arrived, he still had vital signs.


You shoot until the threat is stopped, which requires you to pay attention while you shoot.

As merlynusn so aptly put it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by merlynusn
You have to justify every round you fire. If you say to me "I saw he was down, but I just kept on shooting anyway." We are going to have a problem. If you can articulate why you did what you did, then you have a much surer footing. But also keep in mind that we don't just rely on your word. We look at all the evidence and go from there.
You can do everything right and still go to jail. You can do everything right and still get killed.


Sorry for the long post.
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Old 10-29-2013, 14:06   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kswiss View Post
im not going to condemn him for defending himself but seriously?

[U][I][B]16 ROUNDS?!?!
How many rounds did the cop fire?


Sixteen is my count, sitting here on my couch, comfy, piddling around on the internet, watching a video that I can rewind and rewatch, counting each pop.

How many rounds would he tell you he fired? In that moment, when they sat him down in the truck (presumably to talk to him in the immediate aftermath), how many shots would he tell he shot?

I'm not a cop, and since I'm in IL, I don't carry a firearm daily (yet). But I can say when I'm at the range, trying to figure out why the hell I can't hit every shot in the 10-ring, I'm not counting shots. When my slide locks back, it's a surprise every time.

I've talked to an officer involved in a shooting. When asked immediately afterward how many shots, they've said "I'm not sure, 4, maybe five" when there's an empty mag on the ground and half the next one is gone.

Adrenalin is a *****. It screws with your perceptions of everything - muscle actions, time, distance. If asked, I'd be willing to bet that officer has no clear recollection of moving from the subject-car back to his own. If asked, it's a fair bet the answer would be something like "I don't know...I was there, then I was back here..."



The experts on here are all talking about "You should until the threat ends" and I'm not going to question or doubt them. But that section, from deciding to shoot to determining the threat is over was chaos and noise and fear and anger and.....



You really think he actively, consciously decided to see if he could empty his mag?
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Old 10-29-2013, 15:30   #97
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
How many rounds did the cop fire?


Sixteen is my count, sitting here on my couch, comfy, piddling around on the internet, watching a video that I can rewind and rewatch, counting each pop.

How many rounds would he tell you he fired? In that moment, when they sat him down in the truck (presumably to talk to him in the immediate aftermath), how many shots would he tell he shot?

I'm not a cop, and since I'm in IL, I don't carry a firearm daily (yet). But I can say when I'm at the range, trying to figure out why the hell I can't hit every shot in the 10-ring, I'm not counting shots. When my slide locks back, it's a surprise every time.

I've talked to an officer involved in a shooting. When asked immediately afterward how many shots, they've said "I'm not sure, 4, maybe five" when there's an empty mag on the ground and half the next one is gone.

Adrenalin is a *****. It screws with your perceptions of everything - muscle actions, time, distance. If asked, I'd be willing to bet that officer has no clear recollection of moving from the subject-car back to his own. If asked, it's a fair bet the answer would be something like "I don't know...I was there, then I was back here..."



The experts on here are all talking about "You should until the threat ends" and I'm not going to question or doubt them. But that section, from deciding to shoot to determining the threat is over was chaos and noise and fear and anger and.....



You really think he actively, consciously decided to see if he could empty his mag?


QFT
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Old 10-29-2013, 18:43   #98
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Originally Posted by Kelo6 View Post
That's what I was wondering! It kinda sounded that way, but I couldn't quite tell.

As you can see in that thread, I just got my permit at the end of August, so I've only been carrying for two months

But the main point of my question (which you didn't answer) was about training background.
.

well, you have quite a bit more than i sir,


to answer your question directly.. i have none. flame suit on
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Old 10-29-2013, 18:45   #99
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You can do everything right and still go to jail.


how does that work? why would one go to jail if they did everything right?

not arguing just asking
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Old 10-29-2013, 18:49   #100
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how does that work? why would one go to jail if they did everything right?

not arguing just asking
you are at the mercy of the prosecutor and 12 people on the jury. What actually happened doesn't matter. Its what they believe happened that they base their verdict on, and lots of times that depends on what the prosecutor wants them to believe. Juries do make mistakes and convict innocent people. Prosecutors have agendas, or they pursue charges based on what they believe happened. Incomplete and inaccurate information can lead to incorrect verdicts. If you're rich and can afford a really good lawyer, you have a better chance of countering their case. They have more experience, are looked at by the public as the good guys where defense lawyers are scum.

More often than not, the system works, but its not perfect all the time.

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