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Old 10-27-2013, 22:01   #41
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Originally Posted by Ducowti View Post
On that note, how many of you practice for this scenario at the range?
We do. They even specifically built it into scenarios so that if we don't do a tactical reload during a lull, then we would run out of ammo and go to slide lock in the middle of the next engagement.
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Old 10-27-2013, 22:35   #42
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It looks like backup arrived in under 2 minutes. Probably the longest 2 minutes of his life.
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Old 10-28-2013, 01:11   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4949shooter View Post
Yeah I get it. He could have done a tactical reload.

But as was mentioned, he wasn't at slide lock, so we can cut the guy a little slack I think. I am sure his training officers have gone over the issue with him.

Other than that, who here thinks they could have done better given the same situation?
Totally agree. Everyone knows these things often require some luck. Luckily he didn't need to rely on a tactical reload.

All in all, I think just about anyone would be hard pressed to perform better than he did in that situation
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Old 10-28-2013, 06:04   #44
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Originally Posted by Ducowti View Post
On that note, how many of you practice for this scenario at the range?

I know I don't. This is a good time to renew that skill. With the fat Glock mags and my short stubby fingers, it's not the most natural act for me. All the more reason to practice, I guess.

As far as I'm concerned, the LEO did just fine.
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Old 10-28-2013, 09:48   #45
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I can attest that most folks certainly don't practice movement while shooting drills simply because of the range rules or the range they have to use.

That is why I am glad to have my NLT pistol to fill in that gap. Shooting and moving was a big weak area in my training cycle.

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Old 10-28-2013, 10:32   #46
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Originally Posted by msu_grad_121 View Post
Am I missing something? I didn't see him go to slide lock.
Why would you wait until you're out to reload?
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Old 10-28-2013, 10:34   #47
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did anyone else notice that the officers responding to help him had black bands on their badges? or was that just me seeing things...
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Old 10-28-2013, 10:59   #48
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Originally Posted by Morris View Post
Folks, I give you the value of the body worn camera, for both training and investigation purposes.
My only problem with it is you can't see what he does. You see the reaction to it and the words beforehand. But the officer reacted quicker than I could see what the suspect did.

If I missed the gun showing in the video, let me know, but I watched it a couple times and didn't see it.

Just a limitation to the body cameras.

I think the LEO did a good job considering.
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Old 10-28-2013, 11:25   #49
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My only problem with it is you can't see what he does. You see the reaction to it and the words beforehand. But the officer reacted quicker than I could see what the suspect did.

If I missed the gun showing in the video, let me know, but I watched it a couple times and didn't see it.

Just a limitation to the body cameras.

I think the LEO did a good job considering.
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Old 10-28-2013, 12:13   #50
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At normal speed, it could be a limitation. However, as Kilrain posted, you can see the pistol and it sure looks real to me.
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Old 10-28-2013, 12:15   #51
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At normal speed, it could be a limitation. However, as Kilrain posted, you can see the pistol and it sure looks real to me.
It looks real as a still. Imagine how it looked at life speed.

We had a gun call a few years ago like this. Mama says her little baby has a gun. My partner and I go look. Sure enough, it looks like a Glock. Summon the evidence tech. Upon first glance, he says yep, it's a Glock. It wasn't until he actually handled it that he discovered it was an airsoft.
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Old 10-28-2013, 12:46   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volsbear View Post
It looks real as a still. Imagine how it looked at life speed.

We had a gun call a few years ago like this. Mama says her little baby has a gun. My partner and I go look. Sure enough, it looks like a Glock. Summon the evidence tech. Upon first glance, he says yep, it's a Glock. It wasn't until he actually handled it that he discovered it was an airsoft.
Most of those airsoft guns are as realistic as they can make them. A lot of people that play airsoft will paint over the orange tip in order to make them more realistic "for milsim games". Until I picked up some of them, I couldn't tell the difference between some of them and "real steel" firearms they were emulating. From a LE perspective, I can EASILY see how an airsoft gun can look realistic enough to get someone shot.
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Old 10-28-2013, 13:40   #53
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Most of those airsoft guns are as realistic as they can make them. A lot of people that play airsoft will paint over the orange tip in order to make them more realistic "for milsim games". Until I picked up some of them, I couldn't tell the difference between some of them and "real steel" firearms they were emulating. From a LE perspective, I can EASILY see how an airsoft gun can look realistic enough to get someone shot.
I came home from work one day a few years ago as the local PD evidence tech was recovering a handgun from my neighbors shrubbery in front of his house.

His two teenage boys had been robbing people in the neighborhood at gunpoint. They threw one of the guns in the bushes while running from the police.

It turns out they were airsoft guns, but the one I saw had no orange tip, and had they pointed it at me, I would have shot them.

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Old 10-28-2013, 15:33   #54
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im not going to condemn him for defending himself but seriously?

16 ROUNDS?!?!


looked like they all went into the back of the guys head!!

why does he feel the need to dump a mag into him?

2 or 3 or 4 shots and then see if hes still coming at you! if i had to shoot and then dumped a mag i would go to jail for OVER use of force.

this guy wont, hes an LEO and will get the BOTD

he probably died after the first 2 rounds.

so again why 16 effing rounds???
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Old 10-28-2013, 15:42   #55
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Because the "fire two and assess" gets the wrong people killed. Anyplace that teaches or suggests that is stuck at a 1980 level of training and should be avoided like the plague.

And I challenge you to back your assertion that you would be crucified for doing the same thing.
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Old 10-28-2013, 15:44   #56
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Originally Posted by kswiss View Post
im not going to condemn him for defending himself but seriously?

16 ROUNDS?!?!


looked like they all went into the back of the guys head!!

why does he feel the need to dump a mag into him?

2 or 3 or 4 shots and then see if hes still coming at you! if i had to shoot and then dumped a mag i would go to jail for OVER use of force.

this guy wont, hes an LEO and will get the BOTD

he probably died after the first 2 rounds.

so again why 16 effing rounds???
Oh so you should see if the guy returns fire??

How many gun fights you been in?


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Old 10-28-2013, 15:47   #57
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Originally Posted by kswiss View Post

he probably died after the first 2 rounds.

so again why 16 effing rounds???
Perhaps you've not investigated enough shootings into and through automobiles to know that projectiles do strange things when forced to pass through glass, sheet metal, seat, reinforcement beams in doors, etc., particularly at odd angles like those in the video.

The real answer to your question is, he fired 16 rounds because at the 16th round, he felt that the threat was neutralized. If the officer had believed that the threat was neutralized after 2 rounds or 10 or 12, he would have stopped firing then. If he'd believed the threat was still imminent after 16, he'd have kept firing.

And not to be too clinical but if the suspect died after the first two, what does it matter how many additional shots were fired, he was dead, right?

Deadly force is deadly force, 1 shot or 16, when you apply it, you have to be sure it is effective or you may, in turn, be on the receiving end of it.
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Old 10-28-2013, 15:48   #58
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Because the "fire two and assess" gets the wrong people killed. Anyplace that teaches or suggests that is stuck at a 1980 level of training and should be avoided like the plague.

And I challenge you to back your assertion that you would be crucified for doing the same thing.


im NOT LEO, they get the benefit of the doubt alot of the time just because they wear a badge.

if i dumped the mag of my glock 34 into someone in self defense, that would be seen as an OVER USE OF FORCE in my mind...

i cant back it with data or any solid proof but my gut tells me if i was in that situation i would either be shot just for holding the gun

0r number 2 i would be charged with murder because while i was defending myself i went and used way too much force.


its just my gut telling me not to use that many rounds unless the individual is still ACTIVELY coming at me with a weapon


flame me if you want but its just not something i would do
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Old 10-28-2013, 15:49   #59
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Perhaps you've not investigated enough shootings into and through automobiles to know that projectiles do strange things when forced to pass through glass, sheet metal, seat, reinforcement beams in doors, etc., particularly at odd angles like those in the video.

The real answer to your question is, he fired 16 rounds because at the 16th round, he felt that the threat was neutralized. If the officer had believed that the threat was neutralized after 2 rounds or 10 or 12, he would have stopped firing then. If he'd believed the threat was still imminent after 16, he'd have kept firing.

And not to be too clinical but if the suspect died after the first two, what does it matter how many additional shots were fired, he was dead, right?

Deadly force is deadly force, 1 shot or 16, when you apply it, you have to be sure it is effective or you may, in turn, be on the receiving end of it.


in my state, over use of force is frowned upon
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Old 10-28-2013, 15:51   #60
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[QUOTE=volsbear;20721588]Oh so you should see if the guy returns fire??



NO! shoot and run to something or somewhere it is/feels safer

How many gun fights you been in?

0. i plan to keep it that way
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