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Old 10-28-2013, 12:15   #51
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Originally Posted by Morris View Post
At normal speed, it could be a limitation. However, as Kilrain posted, you can see the pistol and it sure looks real to me.
It looks real as a still. Imagine how it looked at life speed.

We had a gun call a few years ago like this. Mama says her little baby has a gun. My partner and I go look. Sure enough, it looks like a Glock. Summon the evidence tech. Upon first glance, he says yep, it's a Glock. It wasn't until he actually handled it that he discovered it was an airsoft.
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Old 10-28-2013, 12:46   #52
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Originally Posted by volsbear View Post
It looks real as a still. Imagine how it looked at life speed.

We had a gun call a few years ago like this. Mama says her little baby has a gun. My partner and I go look. Sure enough, it looks like a Glock. Summon the evidence tech. Upon first glance, he says yep, it's a Glock. It wasn't until he actually handled it that he discovered it was an airsoft.
Most of those airsoft guns are as realistic as they can make them. A lot of people that play airsoft will paint over the orange tip in order to make them more realistic "for milsim games". Until I picked up some of them, I couldn't tell the difference between some of them and "real steel" firearms they were emulating. From a LE perspective, I can EASILY see how an airsoft gun can look realistic enough to get someone shot.
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The first round is a moral decision. All of the following rounds are tactical decisions.
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Old 10-28-2013, 13:40   #53
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Most of those airsoft guns are as realistic as they can make them. A lot of people that play airsoft will paint over the orange tip in order to make them more realistic "for milsim games". Until I picked up some of them, I couldn't tell the difference between some of them and "real steel" firearms they were emulating. From a LE perspective, I can EASILY see how an airsoft gun can look realistic enough to get someone shot.
I came home from work one day a few years ago as the local PD evidence tech was recovering a handgun from my neighbors shrubbery in front of his house.

His two teenage boys had been robbing people in the neighborhood at gunpoint. They threw one of the guns in the bushes while running from the police.

It turns out they were airsoft guns, but the one I saw had no orange tip, and had they pointed it at me, I would have shot them.

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Old 10-28-2013, 15:33   #54
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im not going to condemn him for defending himself but seriously?

16 ROUNDS?!?!


looked like they all went into the back of the guys head!!

why does he feel the need to dump a mag into him?

2 or 3 or 4 shots and then see if hes still coming at you! if i had to shoot and then dumped a mag i would go to jail for OVER use of force.

this guy wont, hes an LEO and will get the BOTD

he probably died after the first 2 rounds.

so again why 16 effing rounds???
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Old 10-28-2013, 15:42   #55
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Because the "fire two and assess" gets the wrong people killed. Anyplace that teaches or suggests that is stuck at a 1980 level of training and should be avoided like the plague.

And I challenge you to back your assertion that you would be crucified for doing the same thing.
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Old 10-28-2013, 15:44   #56
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im not going to condemn him for defending himself but seriously?

16 ROUNDS?!?!


looked like they all went into the back of the guys head!!

why does he feel the need to dump a mag into him?

2 or 3 or 4 shots and then see if hes still coming at you! if i had to shoot and then dumped a mag i would go to jail for OVER use of force.

this guy wont, hes an LEO and will get the BOTD

he probably died after the first 2 rounds.

so again why 16 effing rounds???
Oh so you should see if the guy returns fire??

How many gun fights you been in?


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Old 10-28-2013, 15:47   #57
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Originally Posted by kswiss View Post

he probably died after the first 2 rounds.

so again why 16 effing rounds???
Perhaps you've not investigated enough shootings into and through automobiles to know that projectiles do strange things when forced to pass through glass, sheet metal, seat, reinforcement beams in doors, etc., particularly at odd angles like those in the video.

The real answer to your question is, he fired 16 rounds because at the 16th round, he felt that the threat was neutralized. If the officer had believed that the threat was neutralized after 2 rounds or 10 or 12, he would have stopped firing then. If he'd believed the threat was still imminent after 16, he'd have kept firing.

And not to be too clinical but if the suspect died after the first two, what does it matter how many additional shots were fired, he was dead, right?

Deadly force is deadly force, 1 shot or 16, when you apply it, you have to be sure it is effective or you may, in turn, be on the receiving end of it.
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Old 10-28-2013, 15:48   #58
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Because the "fire two and assess" gets the wrong people killed. Anyplace that teaches or suggests that is stuck at a 1980 level of training and should be avoided like the plague.

And I challenge you to back your assertion that you would be crucified for doing the same thing.


im NOT LEO, they get the benefit of the doubt alot of the time just because they wear a badge.

if i dumped the mag of my glock 34 into someone in self defense, that would be seen as an OVER USE OF FORCE in my mind...

i cant back it with data or any solid proof but my gut tells me if i was in that situation i would either be shot just for holding the gun

0r number 2 i would be charged with murder because while i was defending myself i went and used way too much force.


its just my gut telling me not to use that many rounds unless the individual is still ACTIVELY coming at me with a weapon


flame me if you want but its just not something i would do
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Old 10-28-2013, 15:49   #59
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Originally Posted by Kilrain View Post
Perhaps you've not investigated enough shootings into and through automobiles to know that projectiles do strange things when forced to pass through glass, sheet metal, seat, reinforcement beams in doors, etc., particularly at odd angles like those in the video.

The real answer to your question is, he fired 16 rounds because at the 16th round, he felt that the threat was neutralized. If the officer had believed that the threat was neutralized after 2 rounds or 10 or 12, he would have stopped firing then. If he'd believed the threat was still imminent after 16, he'd have kept firing.

And not to be too clinical but if the suspect died after the first two, what does it matter how many additional shots were fired, he was dead, right?

Deadly force is deadly force, 1 shot or 16, when you apply it, you have to be sure it is effective or you may, in turn, be on the receiving end of it.


in my state, over use of force is frowned upon
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Old 10-28-2013, 15:51   #60
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[QUOTE=volsbear;20721588]Oh so you should see if the guy returns fire??



NO! shoot and run to something or somewhere it is/feels safer

How many gun fights you been in?

0. i plan to keep it that way
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Old 10-28-2013, 15:55   #61
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in my state, over use of force is frowned upon
Okay, but since this wasn't "over use of force," I suppose it would be fine even in your state.

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Old 10-28-2013, 15:58   #62
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Okay, but since this wasn't "over use of force," I suppose it would be fine even in your state.


point taken


but you just never know "who" gets to define the "over use of force" statute


be safe out there all you LEO people
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Old 10-28-2013, 16:15   #63
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Originally Posted by kswiss View Post
im NOT LEO, they get the benefit of the doubt alot of the time just because they wear a badge.

if i dumped the mag of my glock 34 into someone in self defense, that would be seen as an OVER USE OF FORCE in my mind...

i cant back it with data or any solid proof but my gut tells me if i was in that situation i would either be shot just for holding the gun

0r number 2 i would be charged with murder because while i was defending myself i went and used way too much force.


its just my gut telling me not to use that many rounds unless the individual is still ACTIVELY coming at me with a weapon


flame me if you want but its just not something i would do
But according to your profile pic you want to die in an empty pile of brass....
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Old 10-28-2013, 16:16   #64
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point taken


but you just never know "who" gets to define the "over use of force" statute


be safe out there all you LEO people
He shot like he meant it, and its obvious he fired for one reason and one reason only, to save his own life. Anyone watching should see that.
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Old 10-28-2013, 16:17   #65
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But according to your profile pic you want to die in an empty pile of brass....


well then...... you have a point that i cannot logically argue with
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Old 10-28-2013, 16:17   #66
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point taken


but you just never know "who" gets to define the "over use of force" statute


be safe out there all you LEO people
Not flaming you, but treating it as an honest question.

The shooter needs to be able to articulate a reasonable belief that the BG has the means, opportunity and intent to do grave bodily harm. As long as that's the case, there's no crime. Going back, getting another pistol and putting one more into an unconscious suspect...that's a problem.

A guy who's behind a barrier and hasn't done anything to indicate that he's given up on his illegal use of force, that's not a problem. If he throws down his gun when you draw, cool. If your tunnel vision causes you to shoot the gun out of his hand, cool. And if he still seems animated after a mag dump, reload and shoot some more.

The self-defense laws are identical for cops and taxpayers everywhere I know of in the US. (Not talking warrant service or fleeing escapee, just self-defense.) You might want to visit Ayoob on GATE. Or take his class (still a couple seats left for the southern AZ class in November.)
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Old 10-28-2013, 16:19   #67
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Originally Posted by kswiss View Post
im NOT LEO, they get the benefit of the doubt alot of the time just because they wear a badge.

if i dumped the mag of my glock 34 into someone in self defense, that would be seen as an OVER USE OF FORCE in my mind...

i cant back it with data or any solid proof but my gut tells me if i was in that situation i would either be shot just for holding the gun

0r number 2 i would be charged with murder because while i was defending myself i went and used way too much force.


its just my gut telling me not to use that many rounds unless the individual is still ACTIVELY coming at me with a weapon


flame me if you want but its just not something i would do
Deadly force is supposed to be deadly. If deadly force is justified, then by default killing the other person is justified. If you would get charged with murder in your state for firing too many rounds, that implies deadly force was not justified in that situation. There are many scenarios in which force is justified, but not deadly force (I'm using Texas terms, I'm not sure if your state's penal code uses the same terms).

As far as this officer firing 16 rounds, none of us know what he was seeing as he was shooting, the camera doesn't show that. The bad guy could have still been moving, trying to point a gun, etc. He could have been, and probably was, missing with some of those rounds. He is the only person who knows when the threat was stopped.
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Old 10-28-2013, 16:58   #68
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Originally Posted by kswiss View Post
im not going to condemn him for defending himself but seriously?

16 ROUNDS?!?!


looked like they all went into the back of the guys head!!

why does he feel the need to dump a mag into him?

2 or 3 or 4 shots and then see if hes still coming at you! if i had to shoot and then dumped a mag i would go to jail for OVER use of force.

this guy wont, hes an LEO and will get the BOTD

he probably died after the first 2 rounds.

so again why 16 effing rounds???
Who are you, a cronie of of NY's governor, where the max you can have in your gun is 7 rounds?
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Old 10-28-2013, 18:10   #69
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Who are you, a cronie of of NY's governor, where the max you can have in your gun is 7 rounds?

not even close,

I love extra capacity but as I said earlier, I personally just wouldn't blast 16 rounds into someone,

not flaming the officer, just stating what I wouldn't do
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Old 10-28-2013, 18:15   #70
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not even close,

I love extra capacity but as I said earlier, I personally just wouldn't blast 16 rounds into someone,

not flaming the officer, just stating what I wouldn't do
What if he was still a possible threat to you after 12, 13, 14...

Keep in mind some of those rounds weren't lethal hits, some of them missed, etc.

From my perspective, I'll keep shooting until the threat is no longer a threat. It doesn't matter if that is 1 round or 20.
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Old 10-28-2013, 18:21   #71
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not even close,

I love extra capacity but as I said earlier, I personally just wouldn't blast 16 rounds into someone,

not flaming the officer, just stating what I wouldn't do
10-4. Next time you get into a shootout, by all means, do what you think is appropriate.
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Old 10-28-2013, 18:58   #72
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not even close,

I love extra capacity but as I said earlier, I personally just wouldn't blast 16 rounds into someone,

not flaming the officer, just stating what I wouldn't do
Well then why do you have a Glock 34? If all you need is 2 or 3 or 4 rounds, why would you subject yourself to the temptation of having all those extra rounds? Isn't that just waiting for an "over use of force" on your part? Or heck, be more pragmatic and lessen the weight you carry! Those high capacity magazines get heavy, fast! You should probably go download the mags of your G34 to 4 rounds, just to be safe.

Sadly, I should have seen it coming that someone unfamiliar with the intimacies of lethal force encounters would come up with exactly this tripe when they saw how many rounds the officer fired. I honestly just didn't think it would happen in here. It hurts my head when someone says something so blatantly ignorant.
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Old 10-28-2013, 18:59   #73
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Why would you wait until you're out to reload?
I agree, but the statement was in direct response to someone who had commented that the officer had emptied his weapon. I was asking if I had legitimately missed the gun going to slide lock.
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Old 10-28-2013, 19:18   #74
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Fire till the ********* Falls

In this case he was sitting down so that takes a lot of shooting
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Old 10-28-2013, 20:15   #75
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I love extra capacity but as I said earlier, I personally just wouldn't blast 16 rounds into someone,

not flaming the officer, just stating what I wouldn't do

kswiss, if you don't mind me asking, how long have you been carrying? Because it would appear in this thread that you don't even have your carry permit yet:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1506891

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taking forever, they get 60 days, but its day 57, man they are really dragging this one out to the very limits of the law!

anybody else's state drag out the permit process as well?

How much training have you had in use of force? How much training about your state laws? And how long have you been carrying?
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