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Old 11-01-2013, 17:33   #181
SpringerTGO
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I'm not a cop, , and have no experience with gun fights.
The LEO's here have given perfectly logical reasons as to why the officer did what he did, but some people here are too biased and ignorant to accept them.
The officer say a man with a gun...... exactly how long does it take to point the gun and pull the trigger? 1/2 a second? Bruce Lee couldn't have disarmed the guy and taken him under that set of circumstances.

After listening to the LEO's here talking about firing to retreat to cover, I learned something I hope to never have to use. If the situation arises I need to fire while retreating I'll do so. Maybe the ignorant jerks insulting LEO's in their own forum will just take a shot or 2, and see if that does the trick. Evolution at it's best.
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Old 11-01-2013, 20:11   #182
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I guess 14 rounds is excessive too....

http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issu...mo-on-the-job/
His change in caliber choice comes as no surprise.
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Old 11-01-2013, 21:03   #183
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I agree but I don't think there is any question that the guy was probably down by the second shot. People drop like a bag of tater tots when shot. Been there and seen it happen close up. The young man was alone and probably scared crapless so it does make sense why he kept shooting.

Oh, they do?

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Corporal Mark Coates was shot and killed after stopping a car for weaving in traffic on I-95 near the Georgia border. During the traffic stop the suspect began to struggle with Corporal Coates and they both fell to the ground. The suspect fired a .22 caliber handgun into Corporal Coates' chest, but the round was stopped by his vest.

Corporal Coates was able to force the man off of him and return fire, striking the suspect five times in the chest with his .357 caliber revolver. As he retreated for cover and to radio for backup, the suspect fired another shot. The round struck Trooper Coates in the left armpit and traveled into his heart. The suspect survived the incident and was sentenced to life in prison.
Second time I have had to use this in this thread alone.
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Old 11-01-2013, 21:11   #184
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The entire problem here is that some of you guys can't accept criticism of the number of rounds shot. Does it appear unreasonable? Yes, because the old man was not coming out with a gun. But here is the main question...would you as a civilian be able to shoot a person fourteen times and not get charged criminally? Probably not. Has society changed from the time I was trained? Yes. Has it gotten more violent? Yes. But if you are telling me that a man with fourteen shots to the heart or the femural artery will live or is chatting just fine, I think there is some hornswaggling going on. But I have seen men with small caliber .25 rounds get stuck in their skull and live and on rare occasion you do hear about people getting shot in the head with large caliber weapons and living but they are rare cases.

That is a good idea you have though..."police perfection academy".
You are assuming that any single round fired, at the height of a rush of adrenaline and fear, would find its way to the femoral artery or the heart, and that the officer would know conclusively that it had hit one of those two things.
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Old 11-01-2013, 21:51   #185
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Ok now. Back in the 80's cops were just civilian men and women with normal haircuts etc. Then they changed and started looking and acting like military people with buzzcuts etc. The entire perception of leo changed.

I am not arguing that some people may stay standing after being shot for a few seconds with most rounds but I am also telling you that in an area like New York or Dc area if that man had been a minority there could have been hell to pay if the family had not said he wanted to die by suicide by cop. Look at the crazy lady that came down from New York and was executed by the pd. Do you want a target on your back when out in public? I don't. The twenty year old kids all thought the woman was executed by pd. That could cause problems for leo in the future.

I agree with shooting until the threat is over but the cop could not assess the threat from his vantage point so we give credit to the let. I am not arguing the validity of the shooting except to say that there were probably some officers who could have taken him alive and many people who would believe the number of rounds shot to be excessive. If the man had opened the door and pointed the pellet gun I would have been fully supportive of his actions and round counts if the guy did not go down. But can't you tell the old guy is "geezing" in the video? He did not look like a large "strapping man" with body armor to me.

I was told at sixteen to keep my head out of there but I have seen many people and leos too that do place their heads there. Have a nice day.

I'm not buying what you're selling there, bruh.

My grandfather was a street cop from 60s-80s, I know for ABSOLUTE certainty that those guys back then beat the snot out of people more often than not.

A simple bar fight would be ended by a cocobolo stick to the top of the dome. They didn't have portable radios when he worked either.
He was a Korean War veteran and fought for the last few months of World War Two (though he never claimed the latter, simply because he wasn't there long enough, that's the type of men that they had then ).

But hey, I'm all for bringing the 80s back....


This is very close to me and it has literally hit the fan in my AO after a recent OIS, the subsequent gunfights and threats on LE to include shots being fired at cars with FOP tags...but were the aggressors....
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Old 11-01-2013, 22:40   #186
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Originally Posted by JuneyBooney Cop Talk
Ok now. Back in the 80's cops were just civilian men and women with normal haircuts etc. Then they changed and started looking and acting like military people with buzzcuts etc. The entire perception of leo changed.

I get what you are saying, but would counter with this. nowadays police officers generally are much more professional and respectful, even to the point of ridiculousness. case in point - some ********* runs from the cops, resists arrest, dumps his dope on the ground, etc. and what do the cops refer to him as? sir, or "this gentleman". in my day (70's and 80's), the guy would be referred to as a##hole, and likely have a lumped up head to go along with it. I don't mind a militaristic look if it goes along with a polite, professional approach. that sets the tone for the whole encounter. they have a tough job, and overall I think they do it better now, compared to back then.
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Old 11-01-2013, 23:00   #187
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Originally Posted by dogmower View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuneyBooney Cop Talk
Ok now. Back in the 80's cops were just civilian men and women with normal haircuts etc. Then they changed and started looking and acting like military people with buzzcuts etc. The entire perception of leo changed.

I get what you are saying, but would counter with this. nowadays police officers generally are much more professional and respectful, even to the point of ridiculousness. case in point - some ********* runs from the cops, resists arrest, dumps his dope on the ground, etc. and what do the cops refer to him as? sir, or "this gentleman". in my day (70's and 80's), the guy would be referred to as a##hole, and likely have a lumped up head to go along with it. I don't mind a militaristic look if it goes along with a polite, professional approach. that sets the tone for the whole encounter. they have a tough job, and overall I think they do it better now, compared to back then.
I say, they COULD do it even better, were it not for all the silly stinking PC BS which they, and folks like me inside the fence, have to deal with. I suspect that will only get worse as time goes on.
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Old 11-01-2013, 23:00   #188
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You are a very misinformed person.
Not at all. But thanks for the compliment.
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Old 11-01-2013, 23:07   #189
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Originally Posted by dogmower View Post
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Originally Posted by JuneyBooney Cop Talk
Ok now. Back in the 80's cops were just civilian men and women with normal haircuts etc. Then they changed and started looking and acting like military people with buzzcuts etc. The entire perception of leo changed.

I get what you are saying, but would counter with this. nowadays police officers generally are much more professional and respectful, even to the point of ridiculousness. case in point - some ********* runs from the cops, resists arrest, dumps his dope on the ground, etc. and what do the cops refer to him as? sir, or "this gentleman". in my day (70's and 80's), the guy would be referred to as a##hole, and likely have a lumped up head to go along with it. I don't mind a militaristic look if it goes along with a polite, professional approach. that sets the tone for the whole encounter. they have a tough job, and overall I think they do it better now, compared to back then.
In some ways you are absolutely correct but it still depends on the areas involved. I have seen lots of incompetence in all fields over the years and it has gotten pretty bad but because of videos etc I think that everyone is truly extra cautious to a point of too cautious. The baddest cop I ever knew looked like Peter Frampton. He, of course did not work patrol. Back in the 80's most patrol guys had to wear their hair short and then could grow it out after academy. Then there were the guys pulled out of the academy to work special details etc. I still think it is funny to hear "open mics" now because they still act like the 80's...things really never change.
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Old 11-01-2013, 23:12   #190
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Originally Posted by Ohio Copper View Post
I'm not buying what you're selling there, bruh.

My grandfather was a street cop from 60s-80s, I know for ABSOLUTE certainty that those guys back then beat the snot out of people more often than not.

A simple bar fight would be ended by a cocobolo stick to the top of the dome. They didn't have portable radios when he worked either.
He was a Korean War veteran and fought for the last few months of World War Two (though he never claimed the latter, simply because he wasn't there long enough, that's the type of men that they had then ).

But hey, I'm all for bringing the 80s back....


This is very close to me and it has literally hit the fan in my AO after a recent OIS, the subsequent gunfights and threats on LE to include shots being fired at cars with FOP tags...but were the aggressors....
I remember the 80's very well....when you went to a domestic the guy was told that if he hit the ole lady again he would get stomped and sometimes he got it. But there were fewer women killed back then in my opinion. I just don't see the new rules working all that well but that is just my opinion.

I did like the "porno mustaches" that were common though.
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Old 11-01-2013, 23:14   #191
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Originally Posted by Top_Shot_31 View Post
You are assuming that any single round fired, at the height of a rush of adrenaline and fear, would find its way to the femoral artery or the heart, and that the officer would know conclusively that it had hit one of those two things.
I agree with what you are saying but let's look at another point of view as a devil's advocate. When was the cop ever actually in "actual danger" and not just his "perceived danger"?

http://www.universityherald.com/arti...64-old-man.htm
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Old 11-01-2013, 23:36   #192
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I agree with what you are saying but let's look at another point of view as a devil's advocate. When was the cop ever actually in "actual danger" and not just his "perceived danger"?
That's not devil's advocate...

That's called ignorant of the law.

You could look up Graham v. Conner. Most of the rest of us already have.
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Old 11-01-2013, 23:46   #193
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I agree with what you are saying but let's look at another point of view as a devil's advocate. When was the cop ever actually in "actual danger" and not just his "perceived danger"?
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Old 11-02-2013, 00:00   #194
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I agree with what you are saying but let's look at another point of view as a devil's advocate. When was the cop ever actually in "actual danger" and not just his "perceived danger"?
You are an idiot.

If I point a handgun at your head and threaten you kill you, but the handgun is empty, and you're unaware of this fact, are you any less justified in using deadly force to save yourself?

What is your deal? Why do you come here just to stir **** up? You have such a holier-than-thou attitude and it's absolutely sickening. Why are you not out making a fortune professing your expertise on deadly force encounters and how to handle them to LEOs and civilians?

Or, better yet, why ARE you still here? You clearly have no interest in hearing the majority opinion, so why don't you just **** off?
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Old 11-02-2013, 00:47   #195
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That's not devil's advocate...

That's called ignorant of the law.

You could look up Graham v. Conner. Most of the rest of us already have.
I know that case. I don't know that a reasonable person would say sixteen rounds is reasonable for a bb gun. Has anyone heard if the family filed a wrongful death claim or not? I can tell you that if a leo lies on charges the court will maintain a 1983/85 case against him/her.

Has anyone been privy to the autopsy report that would show which round proximately caused the death?
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Old 11-02-2013, 01:05   #196
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His change in caliber choice comes as no surprise.
I do agree with you on that one.
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Old 11-02-2013, 01:23   #197
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I know that case. I don't know that a reasonable person would say sixteen rounds is reasonable for a bb gun. Has anyone heard if the family filed a wrongful death claim or not? I can tell you that if a leo lies on charges the court will maintain a 1983/85 case against him/her.

Has anyone been privy to the autopsy report that would show which round proximately caused the death?
That's right, keep opening your mouth and showing what an idiot you are. You obviously have no clue about Graham vs. Connor, and couldn't be bothered to look it up, because you say idiotic things like, "16 rounds is unreasonable for a bb gun." The entire POINT to Graham vs. Connor is that you're judged on what a REASONABLE OFFICER would do in the same circumstances, KNOWING ONLY WHAT THE INVOLVED OFFICER KNEW AT THE MOMENT, not through the 20/20 hindsight bull **** you're trying to apply.

If you knew going in the gun was a bb gun, that's not a deadly force situation, but none of us knew that (not even you with all your expertise) until AFTER the report came out.

And the family were the ones that came out and told the investigating officers the bad guy had the plan to die that way, so where did this wrongful death claim horse **** come from, other than you just grasping at any straw you can pull out of your ass to try to smear the cop and the fine job he did?

Furthermore, why would you bring up anything about the officer lying? You're truly getting desperate now, aren't you? Who said anything about the officer lying on charges, other than you, in an attempt to discredit the officer and play on less rational people's emotions?

Just give it up already, man. While some people at some time might have respected you for "fighting insurmountable odds," the more you talk out of your ass on subjects you clearly have no knowledge about, the more pathetic you reveal yourself to be. You're nothing but a troll who jumps up and down waving your arms and crying foul while making downright stupid statements in an attempt to have people pay attention to you.

Well, mission accomplished, you've had people pay attention to you. We all know exactly how stupid you are, and what your goal here is: to piss off cops. Good on ya. Now go spout your "expertise" to your gun store commando and Internet conspiracy theorist brethren. You're of no use to anyone here.
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Old 11-02-2013, 01:33   #198
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Originally Posted by JuneyBooney View Post
I know that case. I don't know that a reasonable person would say sixteen rounds is reasonable for a bb gun. Has anyone heard if the family filed a wrongful death claim or not? I can tell you that if a leo lies on charges the court will maintain a 1983/85 case against him/her.

Has anyone been privy to the autopsy report that would show which round proximately caused the death?
Who asked you, *******?
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Old 11-02-2013, 01:34   #199
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I do agree with you on that one.
Again, who asked you, chump?
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Old 11-02-2013, 01:48   #200
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That's right, keep opening your mouth and showing what an idiot you are. You obviously have no clue about Graham vs. Connor, and couldn't be bothered to look it up, because you say idiotic things like, "16 rounds is unreasonable for a bb gun." The entire POINT to Graham vs. Connor is that you're judged on what a REASONABLE OFFICER would do in the same circumstances, KNOWING ONLY WHAT THE INVOLVED OFFICER KNEW AT THE MOMENT, not through the 20/20 hindsight bull **** you're trying to apply.

If you knew going in the gun was a bb gun, that's not a deadly force situation, but none of us knew that (not even you with all your expertise) until AFTER the report came out.

And the family were the ones that came out and told the investigating officers the bad guy had the plan to die that way, so where did this wrongful death claim horse **** come from, other than you just grasping at any straw you can pull out of your ass to try to smear the cop and the fine job he did?

Furthermore, why would you bring up anything about the officer lying? You're truly getting desperate now, aren't you? Who said anything about the officer lying on charges, other than you, in an attempt to discredit the officer and play on less rational people's emotions?

Just give it up already, man. While some people at some time might have respected you for "fighting insurmountable odds," the more you talk out of your ass on subjects you clearly have no knowledge about, the more pathetic you reveal yourself to be. You're nothing but a troll who jumps up and down waving your arms and crying foul while making downright stupid statements in an attempt to have people pay attention to you.

Well, mission accomplished, you've had people pay attention to you. We all know exactly how stupid you are, and what your goal here is: to piss off cops. Good on ya. Now go spout your "expertise" to your gun store commando and Internet conspiracy theorist brethren. You're of no use to anyone here.
Now this is from the article about the officer ...
When the officer left his cruiser and approached Genda’s car a second time, the driver produced the handgun, and the officer fired several shots in response, police said.

He fired "several shots" and the reason that was printed instead of sixteen rounds is that a reasonable person would be in shock if they read that.

http://www.ohio.com/news/break-news/...orist-1.412104

I am just saying that to me sixteen rounds is excessive and I think most people would agree. This was an ole man and not a big brute of a man with an ar 15 that just robbed a bank. .....it was a bb gun for Pete's sake.

I am not arguing with you, just read the article about several rounds being fired and then respond if you want. Have a great weekend.
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