GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-25-2013, 17:42   #26
racerford
Senior Member
 
racerford's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: DFW area
Posts: 4,877


If you are driving and they stop you, and ask for ID, it is a demand. If you are armed or the weapon is within your area of control; you should produce your CHL.

A prudent man would, even if not armed, say: "I have a CHL, but I am not armed", even if they are not carrying. I produce both my DL and CHL. My experience has been about 50/50 or better that I do not get a ticket. YMMV.

If I am walking and armed, and asked to produce ID. I will ask why, while keeping my hands in clear sight with a minimum of movement. He will either produce a good reason or not. If yes, I am telling him I have a CHL and I am armed. Then ask for permission to get my wallet to produce ID. If the reason is poor, I will ask if it is a request or a demand/command. Request, say no thank you. If demand, see above and produce ID. I won't argue it on the street, there is not a winning scenario.

If there has been a rights violation in my mind, I will file a complaint. Otherwise, why end up on the pavement in handcuffs?

I strive to be courteous with police at all times. I see no downside to being polite and respectful, even when I don't agree.

Last edited by racerford; 10-25-2013 at 18:30.. Reason: tried to remove some typos
racerford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 18:07   #27
KevinFACE
Senior Member
 
KevinFACE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by racerford View Post
If you are driving and they stop you, and ask for ID, it is a demand. If you are armed or the weapon is within your area of control. You should produce your CHL.

A prudent man would even if not armed say: "I have a CHL, but I am not armed", even if they are not carrying. I produce both my DL and CHL.My experience has been about 50/50 or better that I do not get a ticket. YMMV.

If I am walking and armed, and asked to produce ID. I will ask why, while keeping my hands in clear sight with a minimum of movement. He will either produce a good reason or not. If yes, telling him I have a CHL and I am armed. Then ask for permission to get my wallet to produce ID. IF you reason is poor, I will ask if it is a request or a demand/command. Request, say no thank you. If demand, see above and produce ID. I won't argue it on the street, there is not a winning scenario.

If there has been a rights violation in my mind, I will file a complaint. Otherwise, why end up on the pavement in handcuffs?

I strive to be courteous with police at all times. I see no downside to being polite and respectful, even when I don't agree.
Solid advice, thanks.
KevinFACE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 19:46   #28
ray9898
Senior Member
 
ray9898's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Georgia
Posts: 17,172


Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
How often would an LEO, if they didn't actually have a valid reason to ask someone for ID / CHL, admit that they had no valid reason?

"Do you have a reason for asking me for ID"

"No, I just felt like harassing you without a valid reason"

I really don't see that conversation happening...
Not what I am talking about. For example, I respond to a robbery where the white male suspect in the red shirt and jeans fled the scene. I find someone in a red shirt and jeans walking in an alley a block away. I have cause to detain and ID the person in relation to that investigation. The person may be 100% sure they have done nothing wrong but that does not impact the legality of their detention.
ray9898 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 19:58   #29
m2hmghb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Livin in the country of NJ
Posts: 12,220


Quote:
Originally Posted by F14Scott View Post
Given this verbiage, it seems to me that the crux of the issue is the word "demands."

During a traffic stop, when the officer asks for your license, the correct interpretation is that he demands your license.*

During a Terry stop, I would suspect that if a LEO has the reasonable suspicion to detain and Terry frisk you, then he has the authority to demand your ID. Also, if he is Terry stopping you and you are carrying, showing your CHL RFN might save everyone a tense moment.

*Sidebar. I hate how LEOs choose to phrase orders as polite requests. If a cop says, "Sir, would you like to step out of the car, please?", he has made two errors: "would you like" and "please." A perfectly acceptable response would be, "No, thank you."

To me, an old military guy, requests that may be turned down should be phrased with "please." Orders should be orders, although they certainly can be as polite as possible. "Sir, step out of the car." "Sir, put your hands behind your back." Etc.

Ask, tell, make. You ask a person to do something, you tell them to do something, and if you have to you make them. Phrasing it like that also makes it so people don't feel trapped. That's just my opinion though, and I'm not LEO.
__________________
Here's a toast to our wives and to the women we loved. <pause> May they never meet.

The M1 Garand rifle is the best battle implement ever devised by man.
m2hmghb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 20:33   #30
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 15,837
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by ray9898 View Post
Not what I am talking about. For example, I respond to a robbery where the white male suspect in the red shirt and jeans fled the scene. I find someone in a red shirt and jeans walking in an alley a block away. I have cause to detain and ID the person in relation to that investigation. The person may be 100% sure they have done nothing wrong but that does not impact the legality of their detention.
And that is not what I was talking about.

You specifically quoted me:

"How often would an LEO, if they didn't actually have a valid reason to ask someone for ID / CHL , admit that they had no valid reason?"

This is like you walking along and seeing some guy and something was just "wrong" with him and the situation. You really have no reasonable suspicion about anything, just a gut feeling. How many LEO would walk up and ask for ID and if the guy asks why would say " I have no reason I just think you are up to something"?

I am not saying the gut feeling is wrong. Gut feelings about people are right a whole lot of the time. I am not saying the cop shouldnt check out his gut feeling. I am simply saying the cop will find a "reason" to give the person.
__________________
Quote:
Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.
DanaT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 21:58   #31
mossytxn
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 69
As mentioned you are required to produce the chl upon the officer asking for id. There is no penalty, though they will find it when running the driver's license since TX DPS runs the chl program. Why face that round of questioning if you skipped it the first time?

I've been stopped a few times since getting a chl. All for speeding. Each time I hand over the chl and each time they've handed it back quicker than I gave it to them. Only one asked if I was carrying and that was that. I'm 50/50 on tickets though I deserved all of them.

Once I witnessed an accident and hung around. When speaking to the officer I gave him my id to save spelling out my crazy street name. I was pulling out the chl and he stopped me and said no worries.

Game wardens are even quicker to brush it off.

They see idiots every day. Why brand yourself so early in the interaction?

The above method was taught by all three of my instructors. Only one was a police officer. Most instructors will tell you that when in doubt, identify.

My neighbor is highway patrol. He gives the same advice.
mossytxn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 22:27   #32
KevinFACE
Senior Member
 
KevinFACE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 962
You (LEO) have a duty to investigate (and in my opinion a duty to maintain my privacy and rights), but I (a private citizen) have a duty and a right to retain as much of my privacy and rights as much as possible.

If you've got just cause, great - if you don't, let me be on my way. I am simply making sure that I can do this as much as possible without ending up with a summons.

Last edited by KevinFACE; 10-25-2013 at 22:33..
KevinFACE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 22:37   #33
winchester62
Senior Member
 
winchester62's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,420


Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinFACE View Post
You (LEO) have a duty to investigate, but I (a private citizen) have a duty and a right to retain as much of my privacy and rights as much as possible.

If you've got just cause, great - if you don't, let me be on my way. I am simply making sure that I can do this as much as possible without ending up with a summons.
To answer your question, if you are not driving, you do not have to provide identification. They can ask. You can decline. Texas Penal code 38.02.
__________________
People who shop at Walmart get what they pay for.
winchester62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2013, 06:09   #34
Fear Night
NRA Life Member
 
Fear Night's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sweet Home Alabama
Posts: 3,853
According to the TX Code Chapter 411 Section 205, you DO have to display your CHL with your DL any time LE asks that you display identification:
Quote:
Sec. 411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE. If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder's handgun license.

Added by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 10.01(a), eff. Sept. 1, 1997. Amended by Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 62, Sec. 9.17(a), eff. Sept. 1, 1999.

Amended by:

Acts 2009, 81st Leg., R.S., Ch. 1146, Sec. 12A.02, eff. September 1, 2009.
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.u...11.htm#411.205

Last edited by Fear Night; 10-26-2013 at 06:10..
Fear Night is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2013, 13:51   #35
racerford
Senior Member
 
racerford's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: DFW area
Posts: 4,877


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fear Night View Post
According to the TX Code Chapter 411 Section 205, you DO have to display your CHL with your DL any time LE asks that you display identification:

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.u...11.htm#411.205
Ask and demand are two different words with different meanings under the law. It is simple enough to non-confrontationally ask if it is a request or a demand.

That said, I cannot think of a circumstance offhand where, I wouldn't willing identify myself to an officer. Maybe if I witnessed the cop doing something bad (unlikely) maybe I would be concerned. However, at that point I have other problems.

Usually if they are just asking telling them will be enough. If after that they want to see an I.D. they probably have reasonable suspicion and can demand it. At that point you have to produce ID if you have it. If you are carrying off your property, you better have it.
racerford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2013, 20:18   #36
F14Scott
CLM Number 283
Luggage
 
F14Scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Katy, TX
Posts: 3,988


Quote:
Originally Posted by m2hmghb View Post
Ask, tell, make. You ask a person to do something, you tell them to do something, and if you have to you make them. Phrasing it like that also makes it so people don't feel trapped. That's just my opinion though, and I'm not LEO.
That's the problem. If ask is just a quick stop on the train to tell and make, why bother with the ambiguity? Just tell and make. And, if the LEO's intent is to tell and make, people should feel trapped, because they are.

Of course, having citizens who are unsure of the nature of a request is beneficial to LEOs. Those citizens are more prone to compliance, since they never know if a request is about to be told or made. I've played enough verbal games with LEOs to know they are not stupid and don't mind twisting a verbal exchange to their tactical advantage.
__________________
If it jams, force it. If it breaks, it needed replacing anyway.
F14Scott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2013, 21:35   #37
blackjack
Senior Member
 
blackjack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Sand Springs OK
Posts: 2,172
I handled a recent interaction with a small-town TX LEO in the same way I do in OK: present both my DL and CCL while clearly telling him I'm carrying a licensed firearm. As we concluded our interaction with my speeding ticket, he thanked me for the way I handled the notification. Eazy-peazy...
blackjack is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Tags
reasonable, suspicion, texas
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:09.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 689
173 Members
516 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42