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Old 10-24-2013, 19:48   #1
KevinFACE
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Producing ID / CHL Upon Request - Texas

I'm failing to find it specifically mentioned in the handbook or any specific cases on websites etc. If anyone could point me to what is the "common interpretation" or exact language I'd be much appreciated.

I know if there is no reasonable suspicion as a non-license carrier that you do not have to produce identification during a police contact if you've done nothing wrong, at least in Texas. (correct me if i'm wrong)

My question is, in the same scenario where I'm pulled over for no reason and/or stopped on the street for no reason and I'm carrying, do I have to produce license / chl and inform that I'm armed, etc. ?

This may start a pissing match but I'm genuinely curious.

Trolls please jump off a cliff prior to posting in this thread.

This is not a cop bashing thread either. This kind of stuff does happen and I want to know my options.

Last edited by KevinFACE; 10-24-2013 at 19:51..
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Old 10-24-2013, 19:51   #2
RenegadeGlocker
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Law says provide CHL/DL when asked by Peace Officer or Magistrate. Penalty for failing to do so was repealed a few years ago.

It is in the Government Code.

Sec. 411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE. If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder's handgun license.

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Old 10-24-2013, 19:53   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RenegadeGlocker View Post
Law says provide CHL/DL when asked by Peace Officer or Magistrate. Penalty for failing to do so was repealed a few years ago.

It is in the Government Code.
Does that apply when there's no reasonable suspicion that something has been done wrong?

What one would consider a Terry Stop? (i.e. no reason for them to be bothering me)
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Old 10-24-2013, 19:56   #4
RenegadeGlocker
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Originally Posted by KevinFACE View Post
Does that apply when there's no reasonable suspicion that something has been done wrong?

What one would consider a Terry Stop? (i.e. no reason for them to be bothering me)
Yes, since CHL is a licensed activity, you have to ID yourself. As I said, there is no penalty if you fail to.
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Old 10-24-2013, 19:56   #5
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Not sure where you're coming from? I haven't been pulled over since 1978 and that was for rolling though a stop. Last time before that was 1967 and I was speeding.

In any event go here:

http://www.handgunlaw.us/

And click on Texas and read. Only thing better would be to actually read the Texas statutes themselves.
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Old 10-24-2013, 19:58   #6
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Originally Posted by Caver 60 View Post
Not sure where you're coming from? I haven't been pulled over since 1978 and that was for rolling though a stop. Last time before that was 1967 and I was speeding.

In any event go here:

http://www.handgunlaw.us/

And click on Texas and read. Only thing better would be to actually read the Texas statutes themselves.
As I said, I've used the various websites and what not, I didn't find a specific reference (perhaps I just didn't understand it) to this scenario.
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Old 10-24-2013, 19:58   #7
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One of the problems with these type situations is that you often (nearly always) do not know what the officer knows. Even though you may know you have done nothing, what happens if you happen to come close to the description of a guy they are looking for. Even though you have not violated any traffic law suppose a car similar to yours has just been used in a felony.
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Old 10-24-2013, 20:02   #8
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One of the problems with these type situations is that you often (nearly always) do not know what the officer knows. Even though you may know you have done nothing, what happens if you happen to come close to the description of a guy they are looking for. Even though you have not violated any traffic law suppose a car similar to yours has just been used in a felony.
That's pretty well my thoughts. People rarely just get stopped for no reason, even if it's what you think is a wrong reason.
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Old 10-24-2013, 20:05   #9
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That's pretty well my thoughts. People rarely just get stopped for no reason, even if it's what you think is a wrong reason.
I agree that it's rare, however, when you're part of that 3% of licensees that it has happened to (like me) you want to know as much as possible.
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Old 10-24-2013, 20:08   #10
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And the other half of this problem is the police may not be under any specific obligation to tell you why they stopped you, but that may not mean that they do not have a perfectly valid reason were the stop to be scrutinized in court or as part of an investigation based on a complaint.
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Old 10-24-2013, 20:23   #11
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Count yourself lucky. Here in Cali, the requirement to notify varies by county. How stupid is that? I have thus far been unable to find a list, anywhere, of which counties do, and do not, require it.
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Old 10-24-2013, 20:27   #12
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Count yourself lucky. Here in Cali, the requirement to notify varies by county. How stupid is that? I have thus far been unable to find a list, anywhere, of which counties do, and do not, require it.
You need to find a new state.
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Old 10-24-2013, 20:40   #13
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You need to find a new state.

Oh, I've found some nice ones. Have to finish some things here before I can actually leave, though. Financial and Family obligations take precedence over location preference. Soon, though... Just a few more months...
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Old 10-24-2013, 20:48   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RenegadeGlocker View Post
Law says provide CHL/DL when asked by Peace Officer or Magistrate. Penalty for failing to do so was repealed a few years ago.

It is in the Government Code.

Sec. 411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE. If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder's handgun license.
Given this verbiage, it seems to me that the crux of the issue is the word "demands."

During a traffic stop, when the officer asks for your license, the correct interpretation is that he demands your license.*

During a Terry stop, I would suspect that if a LEO has the reasonable suspicion to detain and Terry frisk you, then he has the authority to demand your ID. Also, if he is Terry stopping you and you are carrying, showing your CHL RFN might save everyone a tense moment.

*Sidebar. I hate how LEOs choose to phrase orders as polite requests. If a cop says, "Sir, would you like to step out of the car, please?", he has made two errors: "would you like" and "please." A perfectly acceptable response would be, "No, thank you."

To me, an old military guy, requests that may be turned down should be phrased with "please." Orders should be orders, although they certainly can be as polite as possible. "Sir, step out of the car." "Sir, put your hands behind your back." Etc.
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Old 10-24-2013, 20:58   #15
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*Sidebar. I hate how LEOs choose to phrase orders as polite requests. If a cop says, "Sir, would you like to step out of the car, please?", he has made two errors: "would you like" and "please." A perfectly acceptable response would be, "No, thank you."

To me, an old military guy, requests that may be turned down should be phrased with "please." Orders should be orders, although they certainly can be as polite as possible. "Sir, step out of the car." "Sir, put your hands behind your back." Etc.
I tend to agree, although merely using "please" doesn't make something a question, to me. "Sir, please step out of the vehicle." is clearly an order, whereas "Sir, would you mind stepping out of the vehicle?" strikes me as a request.

I think many people wind up waving their rights on request, because they don't realize they have a choice, or fear the officer's reaction to a refusal.

Many years ago, my landlady called the local PD because I had removed the screen from my bedroom window. The policewoman at my door said "May we come in?" and I said "No, but I'll step out and speak to you." From the look on their faces, both she and my landlady were positively astonished that I'd refused to let them in my apartment.

About two years ago, a buddy was doing a ride-along, pre-employment, with a Texas LEO. At a traffic stop, the LEO asked the driver "Do you mind if I take a quick look through your vehicle?" and the driver said "Yes, I do." Officer said "Ok, have a good night." and sent the guy on his way. Back in the cruiser, he told my buddy "I've been doing this six years, and that's the first time anyone has refused me permission to search."

Apparently, saying "No." is pretty rare.
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Old 10-25-2013, 00:04   #16
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Just because you believe an officer has no reason to compel you to produce your ID doesnt mean they dont. Some battles are better fought after the fact then during the initial contact unless you are a youtube warrior trying to make case law. There is lots of avenues to address your grievances with law enforcement that dont involve a pissing match.
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Old 10-25-2013, 13:13   #17
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Originally Posted by RagnarDanneskjold View Post
Back in the cruiser, he told my buddy "I've been doing this six years, and that's the first time anyone has refused me permission to search."

Apparently, saying "No." is pretty rare.
Yeah, there are a lot of idiots out there who love to roll over.
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Old 10-25-2013, 13:38   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinFACE View Post
My question is, in the same scenario where I'm pulled over for no reason and/or stopped on the street for no reason and I'm carrying, do I have to produce license / chl and inform that I'm armed, etc. ?
Just how will you plan to know there is 'no reason'.
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Old 10-25-2013, 14:07   #19
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Just how will you plan to know there is 'no reason'.
Ask..
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Old 10-25-2013, 14:14   #20
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Just how will you plan to know there is 'no reason'.
I don't think anyone is advocating, or even considering, failing to obey a lawful order, and anyone with reasonably good judgement is likely to assume orders lawful until the situation is resolved. There's no harm in knowing your rights and the law, though, as long as you're not planning to be a barracks lawyer in the heat of the moment. I read this as more academic discussion than anything else. An officer asking you to produce ID isn't the same as an officer saying "drop the weapon", or even "out of the car". I typically assume an officer stopping me has a reason, even if I don't know what it is.
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Old 10-25-2013, 14:18   #21
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Just because you believe an officer has no reason to compel you to produce your ID doesnt mean they dont. Some battles are better fought after the fact then during the initial contact unless you are a youtube warrior trying to make case law. There is lots of avenues to address your grievances with law enforcement that dont involve a pissing match.
I would generally agree, but with the exception of being pulled over while driving and required to produce a driver's license, almost every time an officer has asked for my ID, it has been a request. It's generally one I'll comply with, but still a request, and phrased as one. That's my experience. YMMV.
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Old 10-25-2013, 14:18   #22
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Ask..
Don't expect that to be a foolproof plan.
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Old 10-25-2013, 14:51   #23
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Originally Posted by ray9898 View Post
Just how will you plan to know there is 'no reason'.
How often would an LEO, if they didn't actually have a valid reason to ask someone for ID / CHL, admit that they had no valid reason?

"Do you have a reason for asking me for ID"

"No, I just felt like harassing you without a valid reason"

I really don't see that conversation happening...
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Old 10-25-2013, 15:58   #24
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How often would an LEO, if they didn't actually have a valid reason to ask someone for ID / CHL, admit that they had no valid reason?

"Do you have a reason for asking me for ID"

"No, I just felt like harassing you without a valid reason"

I really don't see that conversation happening...
"Have I done something wrong" seems like a valid, on-topic question.

or

"What is your reason for pulling me over, or demanding search of my vehicle at this checkpoint" blah blah blah

the list can go on.
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Old 10-25-2013, 17:25   #25
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Texaschlforum.com and texas3006.com/ are great resources for CHL in TX.
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