GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-31-2013, 10:09   #1
frank4570
Feral human
 
frank4570's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cul Va
Posts: 16,677
Blog Entries: 1
Gun safety vs gun freedom.

True story.
A single mom decides she should have a gun to protect herself and her child.(I think we can all agree that is a good thing.) So, since she doesn't know anything about guns, she decided to go someplace where there are people who know about guns, to get some education. She goes to a gun store and talks to one of the people who works in the gun store, a gun store employee.
The employee does something stupid and shoots the single mom in the chest and kills her right there in the gun store.
People doing dangerous and stupid things with guns is common, we all know it is. And if I am not mistaken it is most often because somebody thinks they are too smart to have to follow some rules. I had a gun-smith point a revolver at my chest and pull the trigger 3 times to show me how well the gun worked. And of course he justified it with "it wasn't loaded". Typical, common.
So, my question is, could we as the gun community, do anything to change the culture to one that is safe, without laws that would infringe on the 2nd amendment. I'm sure you understand what I am saying.

So, ideas? Just bouncing ideas.
__________________
Fear your government.
"Rats aren't creepy, experimenting on them IS." Emilie Autumn.

For too long people have said "screw NY, IL, etc" or "that'll never happen here." Yes, it will eventually. If we dont start standing up together now, it will never stop.-ilgunguygt
frank4570 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 10:45   #2
Baba Louie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,210
HOLY JESU!

Frank are you serious?!?!

Schooling. Public and private schools should (?be mandated to?) add firearm and hunter safety classes at each of the three levels, appropriate level of knowledge for each.

While this will never occur in America today (a boy can dream)...

Eddie Eagle for grade school.

Safe Handling, firearm use in History, safety, beginning physics (energy transfer math) and Hunter Etiquette/Conservation for middle school.

Hands on for High School. Safety, field stripping, safety, maintenance and actual shooting of firearms, all three types, long, hand and smoothbore.

If we must, force kids to learn safety first, second, last, always.

Gun Safety begins at home, but why not add the schools?

I know, better chance of teaching pigs to whistle (we need a whistling pig emoticon thingie)
__________________
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13
Baba Louie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 10:48   #3
IndyGunFreak
RIP My Friends
 
IndyGunFreak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Indiana
Posts: 29,691
Send a message via ICQ to IndyGunFreak Send a message via AIM to IndyGunFreak Send a message via MSN to IndyGunFreak Send a message via Yahoo to IndyGunFreak Send a message via Skype™ to IndyGunFreak


Quote:
Originally Posted by frank4570 View Post
True story.
A single mom decides she should have a gun to protect herself and her child.(I think we can all agree that is a good thing.) So, since she doesn't know anything about guns, she decided to go someplace where there are people who know about guns, to get some education. She goes to a gun store and talks to one of the people who works in the gun store, a gun store employee.
The employee does something stupid and shoots the single mom in the chest and kills her right there in the gun store.
People doing dangerous and stupid things with guns is common, we all know it is. And if I am not mistaken it is most often because somebody thinks they are too smart to have to follow some rules. I had a gun-smith point a revolver at my chest and pull the trigger 3 times to show me how well the gun worked. And of course he justified it with "it wasn't loaded". Typical, common.
So, my question is, could we as the gun community, do anything to change the culture to one that is safe, without laws that would infringe on the 2nd amendment. I'm sure you understand what I am saying.

So, ideas? Just bouncing ideas.
Simple answer? No.

Just like the law says "You can't run a red light", people still do it. If they do it intentionally, then any sort of "change in culture" would have no effect on them. They are already ignoring common sense (ie, the gunsmith in your story)

If they did it purely because they weren't paying attention, culture is not going to affect that. You can educate, educate, educate, but there is still a human element involved. Humans make mistakes. I bet if you ask the gun store employee (in your story), what he did wrong, if he was honest he could tell you without a second thought. If anything, he knows what he did wrong..

If you follow gun safety rules, you simply cannot accidentally hurt someone with a firearm. Even if you don't follow them individually... we all know the rules are redundant, so if you shoot someone, you have broken multiple rules, vs just one rule...

The rules of gun safety are what they are. You will follow them, or you will not.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by GioaJack View Post
The fire is no longer my major concern since I am leaving immediately on an unexpected road trip to Indianapolis. Watch the national news over the next couple of days, I'll wave... well, only if I'm cuffed in the front.
RIP Jack
IndyGunFreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 10:55   #4
frank4570
Feral human
 
frank4570's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cul Va
Posts: 16,677
Blog Entries: 1
I would also like to see some basic gun safety in schools. Something, anything.
But what about folks who don't want their kids exposed to guns?
I guess a pretty good case could be made comparing this subject to sex education. Parents can keep their kids out if they really want to, or whatever the local agreement is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Baba Louie View Post
HOLY JESU!

Frank are you serious?!?!

Schooling. Public and private schools should (?be mandated to?) add firearm and hunter safety classes at each of the three levels, appropriate level of knowledge for each.

While this will never occur in America today (a boy can dream)...

Eddie Eagle for grade school.

Safe Handling, firearm use in History, safety, beginning physics (energy transfer math) and Hunter Etiquette/Conservation for middle school.

Hands on for High School. Safety, field stripping, safety, maintenance and actual shooting of firearms, all three types, long, hand and smoothbore.

If we must, force kids to learn safety first, second, last, always.

Gun Safety begins at home, but why not add the schools?

I know, better chance of teaching pigs to whistle (we need a whistling pig emoticon thingie)
__________________
Fear your government.
"Rats aren't creepy, experimenting on them IS." Emilie Autumn.

For too long people have said "screw NY, IL, etc" or "that'll never happen here." Yes, it will eventually. If we dont start standing up together now, it will never stop.-ilgunguygt
frank4570 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 10:58   #5
janice6
Platinum Membership
NRA
 
janice6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: minnesota
Posts: 17,239


The story is tragic.

An alternative to this is my story:

I have carried a loaded gun for around 15 years. I have had it on my person every waking hour of the day. I have handled it loaded and maintained it properly. I have practiced with live ammunition and in the midst of groups of people.

I have never had a negligent discharge and have never shot anyone.

My story is just as significant as the one in the OP, however it is not as interesting.

The example story could be written about automobile ownership and have the same significance and relevance. Cars are more common in public and even liberals own them, even though they are potentially more dangerous, no one cares because they all consider themselves to be "good drivers".
__________________
janice6

"Peace is that brief, glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". Anonymous

Earp: Not everyone who knows you hates you.
DOC: I know it ain't always easy bein' my friend....but I'll BE THERE when you need me.
janice6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 11:00   #6
happyguy
Na Ben Don Chat
 
happyguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 14,215
I'm OK with it.

They teach them to cross the street safely, ride their bikes safely, and how to brush their teeth properly (at least they used to). Those are all things that should be taught at home but often aren't.

Regards,
Happyguy
__________________
"Success isn't a result of spontaneous combustion. You have to set yourself on fire." - Arnold H. Glasgow

Last edited by happyguy; 10-31-2013 at 11:01..
happyguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 11:03   #7
faawrenchbndr
CLM Number 281
NRA Life Member
 
faawrenchbndr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: US
Posts: 31,923
Ya can't fix stupid............end of story.
faawrenchbndr is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 11:11   #8
el_jewapo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 3,635
Quote:
Originally Posted by faawrenchbndr View Post
Ya can't fix stupid............end of story.
You can fix ignorance.
el_jewapo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 11:12   #9
IndyGunFreak
RIP My Friends
 
IndyGunFreak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Indiana
Posts: 29,691
Send a message via ICQ to IndyGunFreak Send a message via AIM to IndyGunFreak Send a message via MSN to IndyGunFreak Send a message via Yahoo to IndyGunFreak Send a message via Skype™ to IndyGunFreak


Quote:
Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
I'm OK with it.

They teach them to cross the street safely, ride their bikes safely, and how to brush their teeth properly (at least they used to). Those are all things that should be taught at home but often aren't.

Regards,
Happyguy
If this thread is about educating, then I have no issue with that.

He asked about changing the culture. Educating kids will help prevent senseless accidents among children...but it's unlikely to fix the stupidity of adults.

Would the Eddie Eagle program have prevented the shooting at the gun store in the OP? I doubt it... both of the individuals mentioned in the OP probably knew gun safety rules inside out, but complacency or just plain stupidity, made them feel safe violating them.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by GioaJack View Post
The fire is no longer my major concern since I am leaving immediately on an unexpected road trip to Indianapolis. Watch the national news over the next couple of days, I'll wave... well, only if I'm cuffed in the front.
RIP Jack

Last edited by IndyGunFreak; 10-31-2013 at 11:14..
IndyGunFreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 11:14   #10
happyguy
Na Ben Don Chat
 
happyguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 14,215
Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyGunFreak View Post
If this thread is about educating, then I have no issue with that.

He asked about changing the culture. Educating kids will help prevent senseless accidents among children...but it's unlikely to fix the stupidity of adults.

Would the Eddie Eagle program have prevented the shooting at the gun store in the OP? I doubt it... both of the individuals mentioned in the OP probably knew gun safety rules inside out, but complacency or just plain stupidity, made them feel safe violating them.
Good point.

Regards,
Happyguy
__________________
"Success isn't a result of spontaneous combustion. You have to set yourself on fire." - Arnold H. Glasgow
happyguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 11:16   #11
TBO
CLM Number 122
Why so serious?
 
TBO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: NRA Life Member
Posts: 43,563
Blog Entries: 1


Education, and re-education.

Familiarity breeds complacency. Gun people need to be aware of this and plan to combat it.

I could expand further, but I believe these simple points are understandable as is.

jmho

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Copatalk 4
__________________
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."

"If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters".

"A person who won't reason has no advantage over one who can't reason."

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."

“Ignorance is a lot like alcohol: the more you have of it, the less you are able to see its effect on you.”


Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?

Last edited by TBO; 10-31-2013 at 11:17..
TBO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 11:18   #12
frank4570
Feral human
 
frank4570's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cul Va
Posts: 16,677
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by janice6 View Post

The example story could be written about automobile ownership and have the same significance and relevance. Cars are more common in public and even liberals own them, even though they are potentially more dangerous, no one cares because they all consider themselves to be "good drivers".
It's apples and oranges though. If a person does something that violates the automobile rules they are punished for it.
__________________
Fear your government.
"Rats aren't creepy, experimenting on them IS." Emilie Autumn.

For too long people have said "screw NY, IL, etc" or "that'll never happen here." Yes, it will eventually. If we dont start standing up together now, it will never stop.-ilgunguygt
frank4570 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 11:22   #13
Herzeleid
Kein Mitleid
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,406
Quote:
Originally Posted by frank4570 View Post
True story.
A single mom decides she should have a gun to protect herself and her child.(I think we can all agree that is a good thing.) So, since she doesn't know anything about guns, she decided to go someplace where there are people who know about guns, to get some education. She goes to a gun store and talks to one of the people who works in the gun store, a gun store employee.
The employee does something stupid and shoots the single mom in the chest and kills her right there in the gun store.
People doing dangerous and stupid things with guns is common, we all know it is. And if I am not mistaken it is most often because somebody thinks they are too smart to have to follow some rules. I had a gun-smith point a revolver at my chest and pull the trigger 3 times to show me how well the gun worked. And of course he justified it with "it wasn't loaded". Typical, common.
So, my question is, could we as the gun community, do anything to change the culture to one that is safe, without laws that would infringe on the 2nd amendment. I'm sure you understand what I am saying.

So, ideas? Just bouncing ideas.
Sorry to hear that.

I think we as humans try to save everyone, when some things simply cannot be saved. Everyone new shooter I teach I stress safety among everything else. In fact I won't move them onto more challenging tasks if they don't have safety engrained into their heads as 2nd nature.

From my experience, it seems like with enough bickering and nagging on a person about safety, they start to bicker and nag themselves on it, as well. Which is great for the cause, IMO.
Herzeleid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 11:22   #14
Booker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,838
We have to speak up when we see people handling guns in an unsafe manner.

I been to many gun shows and gun stores where people are pointing "unloaded" guns at other people. I always have a chat with them. Not screaming but in a soft, calm, rational manner!

I've seen too many people not say anything.
Booker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 11:29   #15
frank4570
Feral human
 
frank4570's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cul Va
Posts: 16,677
Blog Entries: 1
Here is a pretty good example of a lack of safety, and a pretty good correction. Though the new guy was clearly not given any safety pointers before he was given a gun.
__________________
Fear your government.
"Rats aren't creepy, experimenting on them IS." Emilie Autumn.

For too long people have said "screw NY, IL, etc" or "that'll never happen here." Yes, it will eventually. If we dont start standing up together now, it will never stop.-ilgunguygt
frank4570 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 11:38   #16
janice6
Platinum Membership
NRA
 
janice6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: minnesota
Posts: 17,239


Quote:
Originally Posted by frank4570 View Post
It's apples and oranges though. If a person does something that violates the automobile rules they are punished for it.
If the act is witnessed by the authorities, they are punished.

If a gun owner violates the rules of proper use of a gun, and it is witnessed by the authorities, they are punished.
__________________
janice6

"Peace is that brief, glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". Anonymous

Earp: Not everyone who knows you hates you.
DOC: I know it ain't always easy bein' my friend....but I'll BE THERE when you need me.
janice6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 11:46   #17
frank4570
Feral human
 
frank4570's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cul Va
Posts: 16,677
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by janice6 View Post
If the act is witnessed by the authorities, they are punished.

If a gun owner violates the rules of proper use of a gun, and it is witnessed by the authorities, they are punished.
Seriously? What law is broken if a guy in a gun store is sweeping people with gun he is looking at?
__________________
Fear your government.
"Rats aren't creepy, experimenting on them IS." Emilie Autumn.

For too long people have said "screw NY, IL, etc" or "that'll never happen here." Yes, it will eventually. If we dont start standing up together now, it will never stop.-ilgunguygt
frank4570 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 12:32   #18
Glocksanity
Senior Member
 
Glocksanity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Los Angeles, Man, Los Angeles
Posts: 1,707
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booker View Post
We have to speak up when we see people handling guns in an unsafe manner.

I been to many gun shows and gun stores where people are pointing "unloaded" guns at other people. I always have a chat with them. Not screaming but in a soft, calm, rational manner!

I've seen too many people not say anything.
Yep, it is up to us to police ourselves with gun safety.

If you are in a store and employees are not practicing safe gun handling, tell the employee and their manager, but not in a way that will embarrass them or make them defensive. Soft, calm, and rational works.
__________________
G21~G26~G30~G34

Sic semper evello mortem Tyrannis!
Glocksanity is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 13:17   #19
eagle359
Senior Member
 
eagle359's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Gretna,LA,USA
Posts: 1,666
I have a very good friend who I will no longer go to the range with. Every time we would go to the range he would sweep me several times. His gun was always "unloaded" so he did not see my problem. He had never been hunting and had no idea what damage would result. He had only seen the little holes in a paper target. We go to gun shows together, but not the range.
__________________
"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace." Thomas Paine
eagle359 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 15:02   #20
Bruce M
Senior Member
 
Bruce M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: S FL
Posts: 20,020
Sadly this specific events seems to me best dealth with by the civil justice sytem which I presume would spread the liability between the employee, shop owner and (if any) the insurance company.
__________________
Bruce
I never talked to anyone who had to fire their gun who said "I wished I had the smaller gun and fewer rounds with me" Just because you find a hundred people who agree with you on the internet does not mean you're right.
Bruce M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 15:47   #21
racerford
Senior Member
 
racerford's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: DFW area
Posts: 4,859


Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyGunFreak View Post
.....Would the Eddie Eagle program have prevented the shooting at the gun store in the OP? I doubt it... both of the individuals mentioned in the OP probably knew gun safety rules inside out, but complacency or just plain stupidity, made them feel safe violating them.
The person buying the gun would done something to keep from having the muzzle pointed at them by the gun store gun.

I had a discussion with my children(7 and 9) last night (not the first time). What to do if the saw a gun; get someone to tell an adult and try to keep others away from it. I told them what to do, if someone (another kid) picked it up; run away and get an adult. I told them what do if an adult picked it up and accidently pointed it at them (get out of the way, do not let them point it at you).

Treat every gun as loaded. Would you let a gun store guy point a gun at you? I wouldn't.

Last edited by racerford; 10-31-2013 at 16:02..
racerford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 17:24   #22
frank4570
Feral human
 
frank4570's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cul Va
Posts: 16,677
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glocksanity View Post
Yep, it is up to us to police ourselves with gun safety.

If you are in a store and employees are not practicing safe gun handling, tell the employee and their manager, but not in a way that will embarrass them or make them defensive. Soft, calm, and rational works.
The problem is there are too many people who are just too smart to follow rules. I don't really know what to do about that. Though I do think more education would help.
__________________
Fear your government.
"Rats aren't creepy, experimenting on them IS." Emilie Autumn.

For too long people have said "screw NY, IL, etc" or "that'll never happen here." Yes, it will eventually. If we dont start standing up together now, it will never stop.-ilgunguygt
frank4570 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 18:16   #23
F14Scott
CLM Number 283
Luggage
 
F14Scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Katy, TX
Posts: 3,978


I was in a gun shop in Dallas, circa 1989, when a customer, picking up his repaired .45 auto, fed ammo into it, cycled the slide, and then tried to drop the hammer with his thumb while pulling the trigger. His thumb slipped off the hammer, and he fired the gun into the concrete floor. The ricochet hit the fluorescent light above my buddy, and glass and dust rained down on him.

We decided to leave, just then, but as we did I saw the shooter, holding his bloody hand where the slide bit him.

I don't really have a point, I guess. Maybe that gun stores, because they introduce new people to new guns in a new situation, are probably statistically good places to expect NDs.
__________________
If it jams, force it. If it breaks, it needed replacing anyway.
F14Scott is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 18:48   #24
IndyGunFreak
RIP My Friends
 
IndyGunFreak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Indiana
Posts: 29,691
Send a message via ICQ to IndyGunFreak Send a message via AIM to IndyGunFreak Send a message via MSN to IndyGunFreak Send a message via Yahoo to IndyGunFreak Send a message via Skype™ to IndyGunFreak


Quote:
Originally Posted by racerford View Post
The person buying the gun would done something to keep from having the muzzle pointed at them by the gun store gun..
Maybe, unfortunately we'll never know that. I was really referring to the gun store employee and the gunsmith.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by GioaJack View Post
The fire is no longer my major concern since I am leaving immediately on an unexpected road trip to Indianapolis. Watch the national news over the next couple of days, I'll wave... well, only if I'm cuffed in the front.
RIP Jack
IndyGunFreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 20:10.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,636
499 Members
1,137 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42