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Old 10-19-2013, 14:50   #61
bac1023
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Originally Posted by PaLEOjd View Post
Glock did offer models with an external manual safety. Not sure if there are any here in the USA or if they still come from the factory for anybody anymore but Glock did make them for the Tasmanian police at one point.

Here is a photo from Glock. Not sure how long ago this was but it was posted on here a few years ago.

General Glocking
I remember seeing the ad, but I never saw one in the flesh and wasn't even sure they were ever produced.
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Old 10-19-2013, 14:50   #62
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
My query goes to logic more than trigger design consideration.

The common 'logic' among GT members:

-Always use a quality holster in good condition to carry safely. If the trigger is covered in a secure holster, the pistol is absolutely safe from unintended discharge.

-Always keep the trigger finger outside of the trigger guard when handling the pistol for any reason, except at the moment when the pistol is to be intentionally fired at a specific target. This 'trigger finger discipline' is all that is needed to avoid a ND.

My question is, why doesn't this pair of widely held safety rules apply to all handguns, including the 1911? Either the rules are absolute, or they are not. If they are not absolutely true, why doesn't the logic hold for some handguns?


Because different pistols are designed differently.

Some are safe all the time, like the Glock. Others are not safe unless they are on safe.
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Last edited by Warp; 10-19-2013 at 14:51..
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Old 10-19-2013, 15:00   #63
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Originally Posted by bac1023 View Post
Come on, man...

The 1911 isn't designed that way. That would be akin to carrying a revolver with the hammer back, as the grip safety would be squeezed just by taking the gun out of its holster.

The Glock's trigger is designed to be much safer. When you carry a decocker design, such as a Sig, there is essentially no safety either.

Let's all use some common sense here.

The bottom line is to carry the gun as designed instead of altering the design to mimic a different gun that you probably should have bought in the first place.
Will a 1911 fire if the trigger isn't pulled?

Are you saying the Glock pistol forgives some unintended pressure on the trigger while a 1911 does not? Said another way, one can be a little 'sloppy' with a Glock in Condition 1 while there is no margin for sloppiness with a cocked and locked 1911?

What element of common sense am I overlooking?

Are you also saying trigger finger discipline does not provide absolute prevention of touching the trigger unintentionally.
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Old 10-19-2013, 15:17   #64
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PhotoFeller, you've beat this topic to death as you have countless times before. Personally, I think you should carry a musket and DO NOT apply the percussion cap until the enemy has appeared.
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Old 10-19-2013, 15:24   #65
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
Will a 1911 fire if the trigger isn't pulled?

Are you saying the Glock pistol forgives some unintended pressure on the trigger while a 1911 does not? Said another way, one can be a little 'sloppy' with a Glock in Condition 1 while there is no margin for sloppiness with a cocked and locked 1911?

What element of common sense am I overlooking?

Are you also saying trigger finger discipline does not provide absolute prevention of touching the trigger unintentionally.
Been there and read this before. The guns are designed the way they where meant to be. The 1911 has a very short pull, if you want they make a DA 1911, although not many care for them. A short pull is why the thumb safety exists since the shelf of the sear against the hammer is small and could cause an issue if dropped right, although it's slim. The hammer just drops when the trigger is pulled. An XD/M is closer to a SA gun, hence the grip safety.

The Glock was made with a striker block, trigger tab and a longer pull hence why there are no safeties. Learn mechanics of a gun and you'll understand why certain safeties are in place and how some are pointless. A pointless one is like on my BG380. A thumb safety on a long DAO gun is pretty pointless. A thumb safety on a Glock is also pointless unless there is no trigger control from the user on a DAO system.

I don't know what else to tell you put learn the mechanics and understand why one gun has this and the other gun has that.
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Old 10-19-2013, 15:24   #66
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Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
PhotoFeller, you've beat this topic to death as you have countless times before. Personally, I think you should carry a musket and DO NOT apply the percussion cap until the enemy has appeared.
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Old 10-19-2013, 15:28   #67
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
Will a 1911 fire if the trigger isn't pulled?

Are you saying the Glock pistol forgives some unintended pressure on the trigger while a 1911 does not? Said another way, one can be a little 'sloppy' with a Glock in Condition 1 while there is no margin for sloppiness with a cocked and locked 1911?

What element of common sense am I overlooking?

Are you also saying trigger finger discipline does not provide absolute prevention of touching the trigger unintentionally.
On a 1911, it takes very few thousandths of an inch of trigger pull to get it to fire. The hammer is fully cocked and will fire with the slightest trigger pull.

On the Glock, the firing pin spring is compressed by the trigger motion. Even if the firing pin could move forward without a trigger pull, it is unlikely to carry enough energy to light the primer. Basically, the Glock isn't cocked.

Both systems may have a firing pin block. 1911s prior to the Series 80 models (or similar) don't have a firing pin block. Models after the Series 80 may have a firing pin block. Different manufacturers choose whether to implement it or not. For California, a firearm may not discharge when dropped so all guns introduced after 1/1/2001 probably have a firing pin block. Obviously, the Glocks always have a firing pin block.

A 1911 without a firing pin block will very probably discharge with some kind of impact if the thumb safety is disengaged. There is also the possibility that the hammer will only fall to the half-cock notch. That was always the intent. But it clearly wasn't sufficient or we wouldn't have the firing pin block.

Richard
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Last edited by F106 Fan; 10-19-2013 at 15:33..
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Old 10-19-2013, 15:36   #68
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Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
On a 1911, it takes very few thousandths of an inch of trigger pull to get it to fire. The hammer is fully cocked and will fire with the slightest trigger pull.

On the Glock, the firing pin spring is compressed by the trigger motion. Even if the firing pin could move forward without a trigger pull, it is unlikely to carry enough energy to light the primer. Basically, the Glock isn't cocked.

Both systems may have a firing pin block. 1911s prior to the Series 80 models (or similar) don't have a firing pin block. Models after the Series 80 may have a firing pin block. Different manufacturers choose whether to implement it or not. For California, a firearm may not discharge when dropped so all guns introduced after 1/1/2001 probably have a firing pin block. Obviously, the Glocks always have a firing pin block.

A 1911 without a firing pin block will very probably discharge with some kind of impact if the thumb safety is disengaged. There is also the possibility that the hammer will only fall to the half-cock notch. That was always the intent. But it clearly wasn't sufficient or we wouldn't have the firing pin block.

Richard
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Old 10-19-2013, 15:40   #69
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
Will a 1911 fire if the trigger isn't pulled?

Are you saying the Glock pistol forgives some unintended pressure on the trigger while a 1911 does not? Said another way, one can be a little 'sloppy' with a Glock in Condition 1 while there is no margin for sloppiness with a cocked and locked 1911?

What element of common sense am I overlooking?

Are you also saying trigger finger discipline does not provide absolute prevention of touching the trigger unintentionally.
I honestly don't think you're overlooking anything. I think you're intentionally trying to be argumentative. I just got finished explaining to you the differences. The 1911 is not safe to be carried cocked and unlocked, just as a revolver is not safe to be carried cocked. Very little trigger pressure is needed to discharge the gun. Glocks are DESIGNED to be carried that way.

What don't you understand?

Quite honestly, my theory of there being no such thing as a stupid question has been seriously put into doubt over your last couple of posts.

Good grief...
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Old 10-19-2013, 15:42   #70
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Originally Posted by Nakanokalronin View Post
Been there and read this before. The guns are designed the way they where meant to be. The 1911 has a very short pull, if you want they make a DA 1911, although not many care for them. A short pull is why the thumb safety exists since the shelf of the sear against the hammer is small and could cause an issue if dropped right, although it's slim. The hammer just drops when the trigger is pulled. An XD/M is closer to a SA gun, hence the grip safety.

The Glock was made with a striker block, trigger tab and a longer pull hence why there are no safeties. Learn mechanics of a gun and you'll understand why certain safeties are in place and how some are pointless. A pointless one is like on my BG380. A thumb safety on a long DAO gun is pretty pointless. A thumb safety on a Glock is also pointless unless there is no trigger control from the user on a DAO system.

I don't know what else to tell you put learn the mechanics and understand why one gun has this and the other gun has that.
Thanks. All I want is for the 'experts' to explain why they hold the opinions they do. Facts are helpful. Cryptic answers that imply "trust me, I am an authority" don't do much for me.
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Old 10-19-2013, 15:52   #71
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Thanks. All I want is for the 'experts' to explain why they hold the opinions they do. Facts are helpful. Cryptic answers that imply "trust me, I am an authority" don't do much for me.
Honestly, some of it is so blatantly obvious, I fail to see why explanation is needed in the first place...
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Old 10-19-2013, 15:54   #72
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Originally Posted by bac1023 View Post
I honestly don't think you're overlooking anything. I think you're intentionally trying to be argumentative. I just got finished explaining to you the differences. The 1911 is not safe to be carried cocked and unlocked, just as a revolver is not safe to be carried cocked. Very little trigger pressure is needed to discharge the gun. Glocks are DESIGNED to be carried that way.

What don't you understand?

Quite honestly, my theory of there being no such thing as a stupid question has been seriously put into doubt over your last couple of posts.

Good grief...
Argumentative? Is that a bad thing?
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Old 10-19-2013, 16:00   #73
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Honestly, some of it is so blatantly obvious, I fail to see why explanation is needed in the first place...
Blatantly obvious to folks who are new to handguns, new to GT?
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Old 10-19-2013, 16:00   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
My query goes to logic more than trigger design consideration.

The common 'logic' among GT members:

-Always use a quality holster in good condition to carry safely. If the trigger is covered in a secure holster, the pistol is absolutely safe from unintended discharge.

-Always keep the trigger finger outside of the trigger guard when handling the pistol for any reason, except at the moment when the pistol is to be intentionally fired at a specific target. This 'trigger finger discipline' is all that is needed to avoid a ND.

My question is, why doesn't this pair of widely held safety rules apply to all handguns, including the 1911? Either the rules are absolute, or they are not. If they are not absolutely true, why doesn't the logic hold for some handguns?
I think you have a good point and have used good logic.

Bac won't agree with me on this, but this point is why I think a Glock is better than a 1911 for a carry gun. Glock is also better than DA/SA semi-autos.

I think I get what Bac is saying, to use those guns as designed. But what I'm saying is the Glock is a higher form of evolution. Use with a good holster for safety, and keep finger off trigger until BOOM time.

No need for a manual safety on a Glock. And other than collecting and appreciating the classics, no need for having a carry gun that requires a safety

Lets also add to this that we don't need a change in trigger pull from first shot to second shot

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Old 10-19-2013, 16:09   #75
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Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer View Post

Lets also add to this that we don't need a change in trigger pull from first shot to second shot

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For those of us that understand the firearm, the first shot is different than subsequent shots, because we do not recycle the trigger 100%
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Old 10-19-2013, 16:18   #76
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The safeties for all glocks lie between your ears.
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Old 10-19-2013, 16:27   #77
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Argumentative? Is that a bad thing?
I guess not around here.

After all, what are forums for?
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Old 10-19-2013, 16:28   #78
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Blatantly obvious to folks who are new to handguns, new to GT?
...obviously not

You've been here a few years though.
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Old 10-19-2013, 16:29   #79
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Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer View Post
I think you have a good point and have used good logic.

Bac won't agree with me on this, but this point is why I think a Glock is better than a 1911 for a carry gun. Glock is also better than DA/SA semi-autos.

I think I get what Bac is saying, to use those guns as designed. But what I'm saying is the Glock is a higher form of evolution. Use with a good holster for safety, and keep finger off trigger until BOOM time.

No need for a manual safety on a Glock. And other than collecting and appreciating the classics, no need for having a carry gun that requires a safety

Lets also add to this that we don't need a change in trigger pull from first shot to second shot

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That's cool

I do carry a Glock on occasion, but I'm just so much more used to a 1911. The safety is second nature to me by now.
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Old 10-19-2013, 16:39   #80
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Argumentative? Is that a bad thing?
Trolls are considered bad, yes.
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