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Old 10-16-2013, 07:33   #201
jim goose
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Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
No one deserves anything.

Lets be real honest. For everything you think one person "deserves" you have to perform an injustice on someone else.

In our country that mean you want a third party to , by force, take it from someone else...unless you yourself are rich, then they take it from you.

For every bleeding heart "its not fair" people like you advocate for, all you are really doing is saying "I want this, so I will have someone else go steal it for me."

There is nothing noble about what you think. You are a thief who avoids feeling you are one because you cant see past your own causes.
Ha Ha Ha.

I bet you have no problem with 500 pound people or alcoholics on your group benefit plan, even though your paying for them. So whats the difference? I bet if we canceled your group plan, medicare, or you were diagnosed with a pre existing condition you;d have a different tune paying cash. Yep, when you had your 15 minutes with a doctor, and forked out 300 bucks, you might start asking reasonable questions.

LIke, why are doctors the ones who set rates charged to medicare and not us or our elective representatives? Why not start asking reasonable questions about our health care system instead of spouting out Orwellian nonsense.

Read here and maybe actually attempt to understand how the system works perhaps?: http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2...dical-journals

Last edited by jim goose; 10-16-2013 at 07:46..
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Old 10-16-2013, 07:45   #202
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Docs sign those contracts because of market competition and people's expectation they shouldn't pay for healthcare out of pocket.

Unless you're the only doc in a small town you have competition. A competitor will sign up for a plan if you don't. Most patients will switch doctors to avoid paying an extra $20.

The dream that some doctors achieve is to be so well known and in demand that patients will come in, insurance be damned. That is rare.

Ask yourself if you would pay $100 for an exam if a in-network doc will do it for $15.
There is a peridontist (I think that is the name - gum doctor) in my area that does not even deal with insurance directly. What he does is he does the surgery, you pay for it, and then your insurance (or at least mine) reimburses you. His office does file the paperwork for the reimbursement. This can work for some on a simple procedure that costs $700.00.

Not so much on a $20,000 heart operation.
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Old 10-16-2013, 07:54   #203
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Originally Posted by jim goose View Post
LIke, why are doctors the ones who set rates charged to medicare and not us or our elective representatives? Why not start asking reasonable questions about our health care system instead of spouting out Orwellian nonsense.
Why are mechanics the ones who decide how much it costs to fix your car? Or why are Contractors get to decide how much it costs to fix your house?

Answer, they are the ones doing it, and that's the way it works for everything.

I have a regular 9-5 Job in IT, but a couple of times a year I'll do side projects for people for a little extra cash. Guess who determines how much that's going to cost. Hint, it's me.
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Last edited by captainstormy; 10-16-2013 at 07:56..
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Old 10-16-2013, 07:56   #204
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I think I knew that.

How does Medicare calculate it? Is it a simple case of "this is how much we will pay" or is there more to it?

I think that is probably where the BS in the system gets exposed.
Read this
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2...dical-journals

Doctors collude to set rates. Illegal in any other industry.

If government healthcare is the end of the world, how is it that Medicare Parts A & B costs tax payers on average 1000 a yr less per beneficiary than Part C private plans offered by United Healthcare, Coventry etc..

Thats right! Coventry, Humana, UNited Healthcare offer their beneficiaries fewer choices in providers, and cost medicare more than those on regular Medicare!

Private = fewer choice, limited to networks and more expensive! Vs. Medicare more choices and less of a burden on taxpayers!

OMG did he say he that!

Last edited by jim goose; 10-16-2013 at 08:11..
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Old 10-16-2013, 08:04   #205
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Originally Posted by SC Tiger View Post
There is a peridontist (I think that is the name - gum doctor) in my area that does not even deal with insurance directly. What he does is he does the surgery, you pay for it, and then your insurance (or at least mine) reimburses you. His office does file the paperwork for the reimbursement. This can work for some on a simple procedure that costs $700.00.

Not so much on a $20,000 heart operation.
My wife's cousin goes to a dentist like that. Except he won't even help you with the paperwork to get reimbursed by your insurance company.

I just don't see how a dentist like that makes enough to stay in business. I'm extremely happy with my current dentist's work, he has extended hours(but is only open 4 days a week) and his people take care of all of the insurance paperwork.

Going to a cash only dentist just wouldn't cross my mind. I could afford it, an annual check up isn't that much I've paid them out of pocket before when I didn't have dental insurance but I'd rather have dental coverage in case something big happens.

I had a cavity two years ago. That isn't even something big but the dental insurance more than paid for itself that year.
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Old 10-16-2013, 08:06   #206
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Read this
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2...dical-journals

Doctors collude to set rates. Illegal in any other industry.
No it isn't. Businesses can agree to charge the same general rates if they want to.

Case in point. Call up 5 or 6 auto repair shops in your area and ask them what their general hourly labor rate is. I bet you'll find that they are all within 5 bucks of each other.
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Old 10-16-2013, 08:17   #207
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No it isn't. Businesses can agree to charge the same general rates if they want to.

Case in point. Call up 5 or 6 auto repair shops in your area and ask them what their general hourly labor rate is. I bet you'll find that they are all within 5 bucks of each other.
Yes, but they are not colluding to defraud the government. Vry big difference, involving jail time in any other business, unless your Opec.
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Old 10-16-2013, 08:21   #208
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Originally Posted by captainstormy View Post
No it isn't. Businesses can agree to charge the same general rates if they want to.

Case in point. Call up 5 or 6 auto repair shops in your area and ask them what their general hourly labor rate is. I bet you'll find that they are all within 5 bucks of each other.
They cannot legally meet or communicate directly to agree to set rates.

They are the same because they look at the rates at other places (usually publicly posted) and decide independently where they want to set their rates based on their own criteria.
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Old 10-16-2013, 08:25   #209
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I got layed off from Chesapeake this week there goes my ins.
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Old 10-16-2013, 09:16   #210
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You want to decide how much you pay somebody else for the work they do? Then do the work yourself.

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Originally Posted by jim goose View Post
Ha Ha Ha.

I bet you have no problem with 500 pound people or alcoholics on your group benefit plan, even though your paying for them. So whats the difference? I bet if we canceled your group plan, medicare, or you were diagnosed with a pre existing condition you;d have a different tune paying cash. Yep, when you had your 15 minutes with a doctor, and forked out 300 bucks, you might start asking reasonable questions.

LIke, why are doctors the ones who set rates charged to medicare and not us or our elective representatives? Why not start asking reasonable questions about our health care system instead of spouting out Orwellian nonsense.

Read here and maybe actually attempt to understand how the system works perhaps?: http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2...dical-journals
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Old 10-16-2013, 10:37   #211
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Why are mechanics the ones who decide how much it costs to fix your car? Or why are Contractors get to decide how much it costs to fix your house?

Answer, they are the ones doing it, and that's the way it works for everything.

I have a regular 9-5 Job in IT, but a couple of times a year I'll do side projects for people for a little extra cash. Guess who determines how much that's going to cost. Hint, it's me.
To an extent but ultimately it's the customer.
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Old 10-16-2013, 10:43   #212
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My wife's cousin goes to a dentist like that. Except he won't even help you with the paperwork to get reimbursed by your insurance company.

I just don't see how a dentist like that makes enough to stay in business. I'm extremely happy with my current dentist's work, he has extended hours(but is only open 4 days a week) and his people take care of all of the insurance paperwork.

Going to a cash only dentist just wouldn't cross my mind. I could afford it, an annual check up isn't that much I've paid them out of pocket before when I didn't have dental insurance but I'd rather have dental coverage in case something big happens.

I had a cavity two years ago. That isn't even something big but the dental insurance more than paid for itself that year.
This guy is a specialist who does peridontics only I think, maybe some other specialty procedures. He does not do general dentistry at all AFAIK.
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Old 10-16-2013, 10:46   #213
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Ha Ha Ha.

I bet you have no problem with 500 pound people or alcoholics on your group benefit plan, even though your paying for them. So whats the difference? I bet if we canceled your group plan, medicare, or you were diagnosed with a pre existing condition you;d have a different tune paying cash. Yep, when you had your 15 minutes with a doctor, and forked out 300 bucks, you might start asking reasonable questions.

LIke, why are doctors the ones who set rates charged to medicare and not us or our elective representatives? Why not start asking reasonable questions about our health care system instead of spouting out Orwellian nonsense.

Read here and maybe actually attempt to understand how the system works perhaps?: http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2...dical-journals
You really don't know how to construct an argument. I get how you feel but your swings are ridiculous. Given what I said, how do you honestly think you would get any traction by standing your ground that I would be OK with those who drive up my rates?

I know this industry from all sides. You think you do.
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Old 10-16-2013, 10:55   #214
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I'll bet you do not self insure yourself. So one way or another, someone is getting something from you, or you benefit from someone else by being in a pool of risk.

The older you get, the more you will rely on that pool of risk. Because only the wealthiest of people in the country can afford to actually pay cash for their healthcare in their 60', 70's and 80's. Were talking 25k a yr for a married couple.

So your saying to heck with 99% of people past 65? You think that's the sign of a first world country?
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Old 10-16-2013, 10:56   #215
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This guy is a specialist who does peridontics only I think, maybe some other specialty procedures. He does not do general dentistry at all AFAIK.
Yea, I could totally see how it would work for a specialist in something that's fairly uncommon. The guy in my example is just your standard run of the mill dentist.

The wife's cousin that goes to him is one of those types of people that always has to be better than everyone else. He thinks because this guy doesn't take insurance that only a better class of people will go to him. I wonder if a lot of his patients have the same sort of view.
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Old 10-16-2013, 11:05   #216
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To an extent but ultimately it's the customer.
I get what your saying, if the customers won't pay it then whatever price your asking doesn't matter. Sure you might want to get $400 an hour but if nobody pays it then it doesn't matter.

It's certainly possible to price yourself out of work, but only a fool would do that. Before I took my current job I spent a couple of years doing full time consulting. I know how it works.

As long as you can prove you have a good track record it's easy to find customers willing to pay your rate as long as it's within reason. Starting out is a bit tough but that's where contacts can make all the difference.

There were times where I would double my normal rate because I really didn't have the free time in my normal working scheduled and the whole project would basically be overtime. It happened probably half a dozen times or so and only once did they not want to proceed.
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Old 10-16-2013, 11:15   #217
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I'll bet you do not self insure yourself. So one way or another, someone is getting something from you, or you benefit from someone else by being in a pool of risk.

The older you get, the more you will rely on that pool of risk. Because only the wealthiest of people in the country can afford to actually pay cash for their healthcare in their 60', 70's and 80's. Were talking 25k a yr for a married couple.

So your saying to heck with 99% of people past 65? You think that's the sign of a first world country?
My wife is a nuerosurgeon and I actually have a higher income than her. Most everyone gets something from me. I have self insured for years up until last year. I get free insurance as a cop, so I take it.

Let me let you in on a few things.

I have been an owner/broker of a substantial insurance agency. I specialized in group packages to large companies.

I have a masters in math where I specialized in statistical modeling.

I am married to a doctor.

Now, none of those things mean I know anything about panda proctology or how to judge modern art or do such things make me smart or handsome.....But I damned well understand risk pools, insurance and how it works on both sides of medicine.

We wouldnt have most of the problems we have if government would get out of the market place. The fact that so many are at risk is a problem government wants to create so they can solve it.
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Last edited by Rabbi; 10-16-2013 at 11:24..
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Old 10-16-2013, 11:27   #218
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I think I knew that.

How does Medicare calculate it? Is it a simple case of "this is how much we will pay" or is there more to it?
The same way that Hyundai figures out how much to pay a dealership for a warranty repair: they do some research to figure out how long it should take the average doctor to do the procedure.
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Old 10-16-2013, 11:43   #219
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We wouldn't have most of the problems we have if government would get out of the market place. The fact that so many are at risk is a problem government wants to create so they can solve it.
+1

I have ask this question several times - so far no one has even tried to answer.

Name a few major programs the federal government handles efficiently and effectively.

Gets the job done without significant waste -

Now unless you can come up with a few examples then why in the world would you want them to be taking more control over your health care?

Unless of course you are the type that doesn't give a **** about anything except how much free **** you can get.
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Old 10-16-2013, 11:49   #220
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+1

I have ask this question several times - so far no one has even tried to answer.

Name a few major programs the federal government handles efficiently and effectively.

Gets the job done without significant waste -

Now unless you can come up with a few examples then why in the world would you want them to be taking more control over your health care?

Unless of course you are the type that doesn't give a **** about anything except how much free **** you can get.
Besides obvious things that only the government can do, such as treat with other countries and be the arbitrator of the marketplace, government does do a few things fairly well. It can consolidate massive pools of money and industry to accomplish things the free market can not. A few examples would be things like NASA and the interstate roads. The military is another example.

What we dont need is the government involved in things (almost everything) the market can solve.
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Old 10-16-2013, 13:03   #221
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There is a peridontist (I think that is the name - gum doctor) in my area that does not even deal with insurance directly. What he does is he does the surgery, you pay for it, and then your insurance (or at least mine) reimburses you. His office does file the paperwork for the reimbursement. This can work for some on a simple procedure that costs $700.00.

Not so much on a $20,000 heart operation.
We have no idea what health care actually costs as the market rate have not been determined in over 50 years.

The fee for service model you describe with your periodontist is much more common in dentistry than medicine for three reasons:

1) the ADA was smart enough to avoid going to bed with insurance companies while the AMA couldn't drop their panties fast enough,

2) not that many people believe dental care is a right versus the number that believe medical care is a right, and

3) the government knows they can't afford to pay for dental care and medical care so they don't meddle in the dental market as much.
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Old 10-16-2013, 13:08   #222
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The same way that Hyundai figures out how much to pay a dealership for a warranty repair: they do some research to figure out how long it should take the average doctor to do the procedure.
That is the logical way.

Doesn't mean the government does it that way. Plus the cost figures are always a point of contention. How much do you pay for overhead? What labor rate to use? etc, etc, etc
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Old 10-16-2013, 13:09   #223
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+1

I have ask this question several times - so far no one has even tried to answer.

Name a few major programs the federal government handles efficiently and effectively.

Gets the job done without significant waste -

Now unless you can come up with a few examples then why in the world would you want them to be taking more control over your health care?

Unless of course you are the type that doesn't give a **** about anything except how much free **** you can get.
They blow stuff up fairly well.
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Old 10-16-2013, 13:09   #224
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That is the logical way.
Not really. As you point out, there are lots of complicating factors.

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Doesn't mean the government does it that way.
But, they do. Whether they do it right is a different question, but this is the method they use.
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Old 10-16-2013, 13:19   #225
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Private = fewer choice, limited to networks and more expensive! Vs. Medicare more choices and less of a burden on taxpayers!

OMG did he say he that!
Or we could all just pay for ourselves and there would be even less of a burden on taxpayers.

OMG, did he just say that!

BTW, the article you linked is a half-truth with a considerable amount of spin.
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