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Old 10-10-2013, 23:53   #76
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Originally Posted by larry_minn View Post
In the past that was almost true. Under Ocare you will be fined if you do not. My insurance is also going up. Was notified months ago. More job offers as places (like OP) wanting to find part time folks who can do work, don't want many hrs.
Over two yrs ago I met a ER Dr. who really impressed me. Guy was smart, good with pts/staff, willing to listen. So I chatted with him on break. He was looking/planning on going to law school. He LOVED medicine. Loved the ER, GP type work. Was NOT going to work under Ocare.
He had decided where he was going, just not nailed down start date.
If he had been halfway close to where I live I would have wanted to get him as a GP. He is NOT the first Dr. I have PERSONALLY talked to who said they will NOT practice long if Ocare happens. Two I can recall right now that i had situation to evaluate them. They appeared dang good Dr.s
Just so you know, OMFS stands for oral and maxillofacial surgeon.
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Old 10-11-2013, 00:12   #77
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Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
the perfect illustration of this myth.
Speaking of myths, your narrative is one as well.

I'm not on the "opposite" side of this issue. I'm with you, I think that Obamacare is terrible law and the precedent that a person can be taxed/fined simply for existing is a terribly dangerous precedent.

But your story starts from a false premise:

Quote:
For decades businesses were required to provide healthcare plans for employees
No, they weren't.

Health benefits being tied to employment is both nonsensical, and the dumbest of historical accidents (it was born of wage controls during WWII, so it was the result of yet more government meddling). If you think about it, there's absolutely no reason why your health insurance should be tied to your employment. We don't buy car insurance or homeowner's insurance through our employers, why should we buy health insurance that way?

The idea that the US health care system is "the best in the world" is also somewhat flawed. I, like you, believe in the power of markets to provide solutions and I believe that this is part of the reason that the US is still a source of innovation in the health care space. But that doesn't change the fact that, judged purely on health outcomes and dollars spent per patient, the US is not the best health care system--not even close. It is a subtle but meaningful difference.
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:40   #78
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...the US is not the best health care system--not even close. It is a subtle but meaningful difference.

I'll buy the fact that some European countries have superb doctors & services, however they are in the red. France dropped their Utopian free health care for anyone living there, even if not a citizen, a few years back & the Socialist Frogs damn near revolted!! It was moved back to the old system and last I heard they were billions in the red.

I think there is a huge chasm between excellent medical care and sustainable medical care. The cost of technology has simply outpaced the general public's ability to pay. It's like going to a car dealer to look at a space shuttle.
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Old 10-11-2013, 08:41   #79
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The cost of technology has simply outpaced the general public's ability to pay. It's like going to a car dealer to look at a space shuttle.
I think there's more to it than just this, though, or the same services would be priced fairly similarly around the world. Technology advancement isn't restricted to the US.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...are-ludicrous/
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Old 10-11-2013, 08:55   #80
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I'll buy the fact that some European countries have superb doctors & services
Not just Europe. Singapore has a fantastic health care system. So does Japan, Korea, Argentina... There's a lot more "first world" out there than just Europe.

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however they are in the red[COLOR=black].
Some are. Many are not. And let's be honest, ours is too. The US has had socialized health care since the 60's. That's a big part of why we're in the mess we're in.

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France dropped their Utopian free health care for anyone living there, even if not a citizen, a few years back & the Socialist Frogs damn near revolted!! It was moved back to the old system and last I heard they were billions in the red.
That's not even remotely true. The French have had a system of compulsory insurance purchase (through taxation) since 1945. In the last 15 years, the amount that employees must contribute has DECLINED, not grown. And the system has now been extended to cover those who don't work (who before didn't "buy" insurance and therefore were not covered).

The reforms made in the 2000's were administrative only: French people could no longer go to visit a specialist directly, but had to be referred by a primary care physician (just like in the US) and there had to be a specific medical reason cited for each treatment.

I was living in France at the time, and so watched the system change firsthand. Yes, there was some unhappiness. But 1) they haven't "gone back" to the old system 2) no one nearly revolted and 3) it's not meaningful to say the "system" is in the red--the French have a combined social insurance budget, which covers more than just health care, and their entire country is in the red (like, say, ours).

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I think there is a huge chasm between excellent medical care and sustainable medical care. The cost of technology has simply outpaced the general public's ability to pay. It's like going to a car dealer to look at a space shuttle.
Here we agree. And I think the thing people tend to mean when they say the US has the best health care in the world is, the best health care in the US is the best in the world. And that's absolutely true. Only a few have access to it, and that's one of those things that (as Rabbi likes to say) how else could it work? Someone has to pay for it. It's perfectly ok that those who have more money can afford more health care.

But it is still a meaningful distinction, and saying the US has the best health care system in the world doesn't capture that nuance.

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Old 10-11-2013, 09:15   #81
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I don't know how many (in general, not so much on here) really understand how insurance works...

What most insurance companies (the big ones that acutally pay from their on coffers instead of just managing) do is they take in the premiums and invest them. The idea is that they want to make more money through the investments than they pay out in claims. That is how they make money. The incoming cash plus the amount made on investments must be more than the outflow of cash.

What amazes me is how some think an insurance company should be expected to knowingly take on a case that will cost them $5000 a month and only charge a $500/month premium (round numbers but you get the idea). No insurance company has a money printing machine.

Unfortunately with health insurance it is an assumed gamble, and some regulation is necessary. There has to be a mechanism to stop an insurance company from dropping coverage on someone when they get a serious - and expensive - disease. The free market will only prevent this to a certain extent as a health insurance company needs a LOT of cash flow to stay open, and that limits the number of companies that will be in existance.

The system isn't perfect. Mostly it is the fault of government regulation (ERs can't turn people away) and the nature of health care - if someone comes into the ER with a sucking chest wound, you don't have time to verify coverage before you start patching them up. Therefore you will wind up with patients that don't pay, and you can't get the stitches back. Not to mention probably 75-80% of health care costs are labor-related or regulatory-related. Once labor costs are spent, you don't get that time back.

It is a ship with holes in it. Uninsured patients are the holes. The increased costs for the premiums are the bilge pumps, pumping the water out. The bilge pumps are keeping up for now (pre-ACA).

What Obamacare did was take that ship that was barely afloat and steered it straight into an iceberg at full throttle.

From a sheer cost standpoint, the only way to really get health care costs down would be to turn away non-insured people who cannot pay. But that is pretty #### heartless in truth.

I do question whether the ACA is the health insurance industry's "Exxon Valdez" moment, where they have an excuse to run up prices.

EDIT TO ADD - the "Hospitals can't turn people away" part is more referring to people who go to the ER every time they get the sniffles or something minor. Obviously if you have chest pain or a sucking chest wound then you need a hospital and you should not ever be turned away.
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Last edited by SC Tiger; 10-11-2013 at 13:42..
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Old 10-11-2013, 09:34   #82
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I'm amazed that so many people who voted for Obama and supported Obamacare didn't see this coming.

How dumb can you be?
yep!! I have neighbor like that, came complaining to me the other day, all I said to him, but you voted for Obama right?
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Old 10-11-2013, 09:41   #83
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Forget about the medical part for a minute -

What you have is a giant redistribution of income - designed to get VOTES - and political power -

Just imagine if you have 50 million people that are either 100% dependent on the government for health care - or are at least getting fat subsidies.

It is like a SS program for everyone - and once it gets going it will not be able to be stopped.

I will never accept that America will be better off with greater numbers of people dependent on the government.

But this is where we are heading - and the ACA is a big step in that direction.

If you support this law then you also support greater dependency on the government.

Last edited by Z71bill; 10-11-2013 at 09:43..
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:00   #84
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Originally Posted by Mr981 View Post
Let's put it this way, this is one koolaid drinker whose eyes have been opened. Better late than never.
FWIW, this little episode illustrated to me why it made sense to let Obamacare proceed rather than make a futile effort to stop it; once
the general population of working stiffs see how they have been screwed
over by the pelosi/reid brain trust we'll have a better chance of taking
control of the senate.
Letting it proceed is a BAD idea. The Rs continue to underestimate the Ds and overestimate the intelligence of the voters. It WILL get run into single payer, that is what it was designed to do.

We have to hold the line and point out what they are doing, what is going to happen, and what the Ds are going to suggest and why it will fail. At least then we have a chance of pulling the least stupid voters to our side and getting it stopped. We have to work on the path to turn it around now or it won't be possible. You will be hearing the conservatives who are now saying "let it fail" saying "I never wanted single payer but now we have no choice." The Rs are the stupid ones if they do not see that coming.

D voters are stupid, D politicians are not and the media is a powerful force.

Last edited by RenoF250; 10-11-2013 at 10:01..
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:03   #85
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Letting it proceed is a BAD idea. The Rs continue to underestimate the Ds and overestimate the intelligence of the voters. It WILL get run into single payer, that is what it was designed to do.

We have to hold the line and point out what they are doing, what is going to happen, and what the Ds are going to suggest and why it will fail. At least then we have a chance of pulling the least stupid voters to our side and getting it stopped. We have to work on the path to turn it around now or it won't be possible. You will be hearing the conservatives who are now saying "let it fail" saying "I never wanted single payer but now we have no choice." The Rs are the stupid ones if they do not see that coming.

D voters are stupid, D politicians are not and the media is a powerful force.
Never underestimate either side's ability to point the finger at the other side, or the public's inability to see past the smokescreen.
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:20   #86
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I'm reminded of the saying, "Government, if you think the problems we create are bad, wait until you hear our solutions."

I'm in a similar boat, got a letter from my insurance company saying at the end of 2014, my rates are going to double. The joys of being young and healthy right?

A good adjunct to that would be Ronald Reagan's quote, "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"


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Old 10-11-2013, 10:20   #87
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I'm amazed that so many people who voted for Obama and supported Obamacare didn't see this coming.

How dumb can you be?
I feel the same way.

What also amazes me is that people I considered pretty smart turned around and voted for this joker. Some of them twice.
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:38   #88
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Bingo--it's all about buying votes and tying the electorate to the party that hands out the most goodies.

The other indicator about what the true goal here--IMHO--is the complete lack of WH activity to promote the growth of jobs in the private sector. Without job growth, there will be no tax base to pay for these increased medical benefits, but then again our something for nothing culture doesn't look any farther than the promise of a freebie. Working for a living? Please--just give me my phone, food stamps, section 8 housing and the promise of free health care when I need it.


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Originally Posted by Z71bill View Post
Forget about the medical part for a minute -

What you have is a giant redistribution of income - designed to get VOTES - and political power -

Just imagine if you have 50 million people that are either 100% dependent on the government for health care - or are at least getting fat subsidies.

It is like a SS program for everyone - and once it gets going it will not be able to be stopped.

I will never accept that America will be better off with greater numbers of people dependent on the government.

But this is where we are heading - and the ACA is a big step in that direction.

If you support this law then you also support greater dependency on the government.
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Old 10-11-2013, 12:26   #89
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Welcome to Massachusetts. Lol
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Old 10-11-2013, 13:21   #90
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Originally Posted by SC Tiger View Post
I don't know how many (in general, not so much on here) really understand how insurance works...

What most insurance companies (the big ones that actually pay from their on coffers instead of just managing) do is they take in the premiums and invest them. The idea is that they want to make more money through the investments than they pay out in claims. That is how they make money. The incoming cash plus the amount made on investments must be more than the outflow of cash.

What amazes me is how some think an insurance company should be expected to knowingly take on a case that will cost them $5000 a month and only charge a $500/month premium (round numbers but you get the idea). No insurance company has a money printing machine.

Unfortunately with health insurance it is an assumed gamble, and some regulation is necessary. There has to be a mechanism to stop an insurance company from dropping coverage on someone when they get a serious - and expensive - disease. The free market will only prevent this to a certain extent as a health insurance company needs a LOT of cash flow to stay open, and that limits the number of companies that will be in existence.
The problem is that the insurance companies have purposely stacked the deck in their favor for so long, and acted in such bad faith that this was an inevitable result. Many insurance companies would deny claims or delay long enough so that the policy holder would die BEFORE they had to pay out, delay or decline on basic, petty, stupid things that don't cost all that much (below $100 labs, misc supply fees to name by a small few) just to make paying out so hard that the patient either paid for it themselves or died before the issue was forced by a ruling of law. Insurers would rescind or 'recision' policies if major problems arose to avoid paying, even when no fraud was committed - in essence, committing fraud themselves to avoid payment.

If the policyholder paid their premiums faithfully then found themselves in need of expensive medical care, that is the risk the insurance company wrote the policy against - it does not give them the right to simply abandon their responsibility simply because its too expensive to maintain given the premiums paid. If that were the case, why not simply finance medical care and totally do away with insurance - since it does nothing to mitigate risk?

The old saying about the bad apples spoiling the entire basic rings true with health insurance - thank the bad faith actors for ruining the way it worked (or didn't) before.

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The system isn't perfect. Mostly it is the fault of government regulation (ERs can't turn people away) and the nature of health care - if someone comes into the ER with a sucking chest wound, you don't have time to verify coverage before you start patching them up. Therefore you will wind up with patients that don't pay, and you can't get the stitches back. Not to mention probably 75-80% of health care costs are labor-related or regulatory-related. Once labor costs are spent, you don't get that time back.
I really fail to see how requiring Emergency Rooms to treat all life-threateningly ill and injured without prior knowledge of financial ability to pay for that care a *fault* in the health care system. I don't want to live in a world where people who are in such situations need to collect their financial assets before they can treated. I don't want to step over dead bodies on my way to the doctor, or when going to work. I don't want to part-time as a funeral director to properly dispose of the dead who die where-ever they are because they, financially, can't afford to die anywhere but at work, at home, at church, or whatnot.

I'd even suspect that doctors don't want a world where they cannot help those who truly need it, except if their AMEX or VISA is any good - of course, I get proved painfully and sadly wrong everyday.

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It is a ship with holes in it. Uninsured patients are the holes. The increased costs for the premiums are the bilge pumps, pumping the water out. The bilge pumps are keeping up for now (pre-ACA).

What Obamacare did was take that ship that was barely afloat and steered it straight into an iceberg at full throttle.

From a sheer cost standpoint, the only way to really get health care costs down would be to turn away non-insured people who cannot pay. But that is pretty #### heartless in truth.

I do question whether the ACA is the health insurance industry's "Exxon Valdez" moment, where they have an excuse to run up prices.
The problem is that too many people are certainly willing to sacrifice the 'surplus population' - as long as its not them and their's - in order to feel like they aren't paying for someone else (even though the social contract is built on the principle of the affordability of scale - you are ALREADY paying for someone who can't or won't) A solution cannot simply be 'turn away everyone who cannot pay, too bad - so sad'.
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Old 10-11-2013, 13:52   #91
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Just so you know, OMFS stands for oral and maxillofacial surgeon.
He may or may not return to this thread. He may also sti be googling
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Old 10-11-2013, 17:27   #92
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Warcry, you speak with some authority on insurance. Do I remember correctly that you are in the business? If yes here is a bit of friendly advice in all seriousness and sincerity, look for another way to make a living, NOW. Kathleen sebileous stated that single payer is the goal, the end game. The insurance companies are being given a golden parachute because when single payer hit, y'all are out. To take the POTUS's stance, I'm not debating this with you, this isn't a discussion. This is friendly advice. I truly hope you have something to fall back on because you are seeing the beginning of the end of your industry. Sorry for your luck.

If you are not in the insurance, and by this I mean the health insurance, business, kindly disregard the aforementioned advice. TTFN.
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Old 10-11-2013, 18:14   #93
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This week has been bad news for me from my HR Director.

She has been dealing with the fallout from Obamacare.

This just warms my heart....I'm so happy to hear of all the good news!

I almost cried tears of joy reading your post.

Your employees must be thrilled!

They can keep their health plans, keep seeing their same doctor, they get FREE preventative care, FREE birth control...can't be denied for pre-existing conditions...and their costs have gone down too!

Without the democrats decreeing free health care for all, what would we have done?

My personal insurance just increased over $1500.00 per year and I'm just so happy about it....really I am....Heil obama, this is so great I just don't know what to do with myself!
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Old 10-11-2013, 18:17   #94
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So, you're saying "I got mine, and I'll make sure I continue to get mine, and blame the government for all those under me that I have to strip away from."?
For someone who stated in his original post that your intent was to clarify and not to argue, your tone here sounds...well...... argumentative. If you have to work so hard to sound as if you are just an innocent observer, why don't you just man up and state your point of view rather than dancing around. Here, let me help you...Obamacare is going to SUCK. This statement is based on the number of people who are having their hours cut already and/or receiving notice that their insurance is going to 1) double in price or, 2) be cancelled. Now let us all know how it is just because we are with the wrong insurance company or this corporate move would have been made even if Obamacare did not exist. I guess it's just a massive conspiracy by all US companies designed to embarrass his Royal Highness and avoid paying any kind of benefits to employees.
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Old 10-11-2013, 18:41   #95
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I feel the same way.

What also amazes me is that people I considered pretty smart turned around and voted for this joker. Some of them twice.
What amazes me as the Republicans couldn't offer up a candidate who could beat freakin' O. Twice. Just keep telling voters that $7.25 an hour is too much pay. Maybe they'll vote for you.

My BCBS was over $1400 a month before Obamacare. Haven't heard of any changes coming.

2016 is coming. We'll have another opportunity.
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Old 10-11-2013, 18:46   #96
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Warcry, you speak with some authority on insurance. Do I remember correctly that you are in the business? If yes here is a bit of friendly advice in all seriousness and sincerity, look for another way to make a living, NOW. Kathleen sebileous stated that single payer is the goal, the end game. The insurance companies are being given a golden parachute because when single payer hit, y'all are out. To take the POTUS's stance, I'm not debating this with you, this isn't a discussion. This is friendly advice. I truly hope you have something to fall back on because you are seeing the beginning of the end of your industry. Sorry for your luck.

If you are not in the insurance, and by this I mean the health insurance, business, kindly disregard the aforementioned advice. TTFN.
I actually am not any longer. I worked for BCBS IL for 6 years, but I've been gone a little more than a year now.

I think you may end up being right, but it'll be further down the road than currently projected.

But, yes, I did work for them, from 2006-2012, so I've seen all the things that insurance companies vs the things they get blamed (and willingly take blame) for. I was there when the bill was in Congress, I was there when it passed, and I was there for hours and hours and HOURS of training about the provisions in the new law.

And for anyone that thinks all insurance company management was pushing for anything in this, my site-manager (who's actually the head of 3 or 4 pretty large divisions, including all Small Business operations for BCBS IL, BCBS NM, and BCBS TX) stood in front of us all in Oct 2010 and said the hope of the company was that the "upcoming elections" would change the course of the ACA - obviously suggesting they wanted the law killed.



(which has no bearing, really, on this conversation, just an interesting anecdote.)
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Old 10-11-2013, 19:04   #97
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Basically the only thing the government does really well is blow stuff up.
Yup, and it's VERY expensive!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-11-2013, 20:31   #98
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He may or may not return to this thread. He may also sti be googling
Guys. Is this supposed to be something? You and Rabbi seem to be upset? I don't recall using hard to understand medical terms. Was one needed after you put your food in mouth?


I posted a reply

"In the past that was almost true. Under Ocare you will be fined if you do not. My insurance is also going up. Was notified months ago. More job offers as places (like OP) wanting to find part time folks who can do work, don't want many hrs.
Over two yrs ago I met a ER Dr. who really impressed me. Guy was smart, good with pts/staff, willing to listen. So I chatted with him on break. He was looking/planning on going to law school. He LOVED medicine. Loved the ER, GP type work. Was NOT going to work under Ocare.
He had decided where he was going, just not nailed down start date.
If he had been halfway close to where I live I would have wanted to get him as a GP. He is NOT the first Dr. I have PERSONALLY talked to who said they will NOT practice long if Ocare happens. Two I can recall right now that i had situation to evaluate them. They appeared dang good Dr.s"

This was a reply to this post.

"Originally Posted by TX OMFS

Insurance companies provide a service - they allow you to transfer risk. Don't like the service? Take the risk yourself"

Not sure what I posted that got your panties in wadd. I am sorry I offended you both.
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Old 10-11-2013, 20:35   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larry_minn View Post
Guys. Is this supposed to be something? You and Rabbi seem to be upset? I don't recall using hard to understand medical terms. Was one needed after you put your food in mouth?


I posted a reply

"In the past that was almost true. Under Ocare you will be fined if you do not. My insurance is also going up. Was notified months ago. More job offers as places (like OP) wanting to find part time folks who can do work, don't want many hrs.
Over two yrs ago I met a ER Dr. who really impressed me. Guy was smart, good with pts/staff, willing to listen. So I chatted with him on break. He was looking/planning on going to law school. He LOVED medicine. Loved the ER, GP type work. Was NOT going to work under Ocare.
He had decided where he was going, just not nailed down start date.
If he had been halfway close to where I live I would have wanted to get him as a GP. He is NOT the first Dr. I have PERSONALLY talked to who said they will NOT practice long if Ocare happens. Two I can recall right now that i had situation to evaluate them. They appeared dang good Dr.s"

This was a reply to this post.

"Originally Posted by TX OMFS

Insurance companies provide a service - they allow you to transfer risk. Don't like the service? Take the risk yourself"

Not sure what I posted that got your panties in wadd. I am sorry I offended you both.
I am not upset at all, I was just warning you of the fact that you were playing a very weak hand. You played the "I know a few doctors" card... to a doctor.
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Old 10-11-2013, 21:49   #100
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Originally Posted by larry_minn View Post
In the past that was almost true. Under Ocare you will be fined if you do not.
You're correct. Everything changes w/ Ocare.

I just get tired of people moaning about insurance companies. People incorrectly look at insurance companies as a free pass for limitless healthcare. Insurance co's are a business that you, at one time, could choose to do business with or not. Complaints about insurance companies often sound entitlement minded.
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