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Old 09-18-2013, 01:20   #1
vart
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The elephant in the room; mental health system.

It is arguably a dismal failure based on how many murders and mass shootings are committed by mentally ill people in this country.

I admittedly know very little about the system or how it works; I just know what I've seen my brother go through as a cop due to the failure of the system.

He and I had a little too much scotch the other night and he admitted that he was carrying enormous guilt around due to two specific cases he worked.

In both cases, he was the responding officer involving domestic abuse by a mentally ill male.

In both cases, the suspect was clearly displaying psychotic behavior due to statements they made.

Both suspects were arrested, jailed, and released after a psych evaluation.

One suspect returned immediately to his home and murdered his wife, her parents, and a friend before killing himself.

The other did this:

http://voices.yahoo.com/sniper-kills...ho-358222.html

From the article:

Quote:
Hamilton did however try and commit suicide on February 16th of this year, by over dosing on anxiety medicine. Once evaluated, Hamilton allegedly told mental health professionals that if he were really try to commit suicide, he would do it through a mass shooting in which others would die as well.
Why are we allowing mentally ill people with violent tendencies to roam our streets??

I thought for sure the Sandy Hook shooting would result in some changes, but it didn't.

I don't hold out much hope for this latest shooting to effect any sort of change, either...
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Old 09-18-2013, 01:34   #2
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Originally Posted by vart View Post
...Why are we allowing mentally ill people with violent tendencies to roam our streets??...

I'll make it short & sweet. Back starting under Nixon there was a huge push to deinstitutionalize as there was rampant abuse, i.e., "warehousing" the mentally ill and basically sedating them. This grew in coming years and then the Liberal hand wringing "do gooders" got on board and went way overboard to the point that today you actually have to practically commit a heinous act to be committed. The pendulum has swung too far, as it always does in America.

Then came the HIPAA Laws that made things even more difficult. HIPAA is a double edged sword when it comes to mentally ill people. HIPAA was a result of the huge lobbying by the Gay Community as in the mid-80's there was a hue & cry to segregate those who were HIV positive to contain what many believed at the time to possibly be a pandemic and which was medical protocol. Naturally, the gays and their political "cross bearer", i.e., the DemoRats, defeated that.

That's the Cliff Notes version.
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Old 09-18-2013, 04:58   #3
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1. There isn't enough money to treat all of the tens of millions of Americans with severe mental illness. A great many people who are seen by a local mental health agency only see a doctor every 3 months for a few minutes for a new prescription and maybe see an MSW therapist once a month if they're lucky. If they even go.

2. Even if we had the funds, the medications usually only help a little. The degree of effectiveness varies from zero to pretty good. But they don't cure, they only help manage the symptoms.

3. You can't force folks to keep apppointments or take their meds. It's a free country.

Seen it all and retired last year.
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Old 09-18-2013, 05:06   #4
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This thread is spot on, the other elephant in the room is gangs. Instead they continually pass laws that only affect the law abiding citizenry which is why nothing will ever change.
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Old 09-18-2013, 05:07   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
I'll make it short & sweet. Back starting under Nixon there was a huge push to deinstitutionalize as there was rampant abuse, i.e., "warehousing" the mentally ill and basically sedating them. This grew in coming years and then the Liberal hand wringing "do gooders" got on board and went way overboard to the point that today you actually have to practically commit a heinous act to be committed. The pendulum has swung too far, as it always does in America.

Then came the HIPAA Laws that made things even more difficult. HIPAA is a double edged sword when it comes to mentally ill people. HIPAA was a result of the huge lobbying by the Gay Community as in the mid-80's there was a hue & cry to segregate those who were HIV positive to contain what many believed at the time to possibly be a pandemic and which was medical protocol. Naturally, the gays and their political "cross bearer", i.e., the DemoRats, defeated that.

That's the Cliff Notes version.
Please provide a credible source for this.
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Old 09-18-2013, 05:11   #6
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Are you sure you want to share what your brother told you about his personal feelings (while drinking and likely assuming confidentiality) and link those personal thoughts to 2 very tragic events? And do so on the w.w.w. in a public forum? Might I suggest you delete and restart thread leaving out other's personal info.
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Old 09-18-2013, 05:50   #7
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This thread is spot on, the other elephant in the room is gangs. Instead they continually pass laws that only affect the law abiding citizenry which is why nothing will ever change.
While the mass shootings by nut jobs get all the media attention they comprise less the one percent of all the murders in this country. Most of the murders are inter-city gang related. A majority of the murders in the country can be connected to 9 or 10 major cities. Remove those murders (numbers) from the statistics and one would find this country is pretty peaceful. The big elephant is inter-city gang killings.
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Old 09-18-2013, 05:50   #8
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Originally Posted by Cmacc View Post
Are you sure you want to share what your brother told you about his personal feelings (while drinking and likely assuming confidentiality) and link those personal thoughts to 2 very tragic events? And do so on the w.w.w. in a public forum? Might I suggest you delete and restart thread leaving out other's personal info.
Oh relax. To late anyhow. Once it's in the World Wide Web there are no "do-overs".
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Old 09-18-2013, 09:29   #9
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Speaking of root issues and "causes" for the increase in "mass shootings", I have another one. In fact, while I agree with the mental health issues hypothesis in this thread, I think the REAL root cause for the increase:

Media sensationalism.

These nutjobs see the guy before them commit the "mass shooting" all over the news for weeks and months. Then ... in some form or fashion (I'm not a psychiatrist, so can't attribute a scientific term to it) ... whether it is consciously done or not ... have the desire / need emulate the act, or feel that it will "solve" their psychosis induced "problem".

If we want to stop it, the solution is simple. The media needs to quit giving these guys their post-killing spree "air time". Unfortunately, I don't know how it can be accomplished in this day of a constant news cycle / overload, with every news outlet competing for your attention (i.e., dollars) and as result, ethics and true journalism taking a back seat.

If a story such as this gets nothing more than a 2nd page blurb in the newspaper, and a quick mention in the evening TV news (with never a mention of the criminal's name or identity) ... the mass shootings would stop.

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Old 09-18-2013, 09:50   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
I'll make it short & sweet. Back starting under Nixon there was a huge push to deinstitutionalize as there was rampant abuse, i.e., "warehousing" the mentally ill and basically sedating them. This grew in coming years and then the Liberal hand wringing "do gooders" got on board and went way overboard to the point that today you actually have to practically commit a heinous act to be committed. The pendulum has swung too far, as it always does in America.

:
This. You can probably thank a liberal for all of the mass shootings in recent years.
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Old 09-18-2013, 10:05   #11
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This country does not have the money or resources to even attempt it. There are probably more seriously mentally ill people in this country right now than incarcerated criminals. On top of that these people have Constitutional rights just like everyone else so we can't just lock them up without very strong reason, the 4th amendment protects them just as much as it does with any other seizure where you are taking someones freedom.

Just like gun owners point out you shouldn't punish the whole group every time someone commits a crime with a gun, it works the same with the mentally ill.

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Old 09-18-2013, 10:10   #12
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I thought this thread was about Rosie O'Donnell.

Anyway, some people just need to be institutionalized. We do not fully understand mental illness and cannot always accurately predict or control behavior. We can be humane about it but the fact is some people need to be institutionalized.

Vart, the stuff your brother saw is a result of $$. Who is going to pay for institutionalizing patients? That's the real elephant (and Rosie).
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Old 09-18-2013, 10:32   #13
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A few years ago, the progressives thought it was uncivilized to lock up the mentally ill for treatment before they hurt themselves or others. The alternative they gave us is what we have now - we lock up the mentally ill in prisons, with minimal treatment, after they hurt somebody. It's very progressive and now we are civilized.
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Old 09-18-2013, 11:14   #14
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Will never happen. Who is going to pay for it? Who is going to put their livelihood on the line to start locking up people.

Mental health today consists of seeing a DR and getting a prescription. You want anything else, comes out of your own pocket.
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Old 09-18-2013, 11:40   #15
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THIS!!!! Just as in the Tylenol poisoning 30 years ago, copycats are inspired by the media coverage. The next nutcase sees the worldwide infamy garnered by the rampage and decides "If I kill (more, younger, whatever) people, *I'll* be famous too!", and away we go with the next one.

I heard a report (that quickly faded away) that the Newtown kid had an extensive spreadsheet tallying previous mass murders. I don't know if it went away because it was a rumor that proved to be untrue, or if it went away because it would show part of what led to his inspiration to carry it out, but would be unsurprised if it was the latter. I do recall hearing one of the psych doctors that was being interviewed BY THE MEDIA specifically say that it was thought that media coverage could well be an inspiration to those inclined towards this sort of thing. I was hoarse from yelling at the TV that they were giving the dead kid EXACTLY what he wanted, and lo and behold, one of their talking heads came right out and said it. So, of course after basically being told they shared in the responsibility for the tragedy, they carried on doing exactly what they were told by their own expert was a contributing factor.

I think a good way to reduce these crimes would be to make the perpetrator an unperson. No mention of his name, no delving into his troubled past to see what may have led to this horrible act, no picture on Time or Newsweek or Rolling Stone, no nothing. Call him the Newtown Shooter, or the Aurora shooter, or something similar, but nothing to tie the name and image of the perpetrator to the act. Remove the (in their sick mind) 'reward', and my bet is you'd see a decline in mass shootings. It wouldn't end them completely, because there would still be whack jobs out there, but I am pretty certain there would be fewer.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by douggmc View Post
Speaking of root issues and "causes" for the increase in "mass shootings", I have another one. In fact, while I agree with the mental health issues hypothesis in this thread, I think the REAL root cause for the increase:

Media sensationalism.

These nutjobs see the guy before them commit the "mass shooting" all over the news for weeks and months. Then ... in some form or fashion (I'm not a psychiatrist, so can't attribute a scientific term to it) ... whether it is consciously done or not ... have the desire / need emulate the act, or feel that it will "solve" their psychosis induced "problem".

If we want to stop it, the solution is simple. The media needs to quit giving these guys their post-killing spree "air time". Unfortunately, I don't know how it can be accomplished in this day of a constant news cycle / overload, with every news outlet competing for your attention (i.e., dollars) and as result, ethics and true journalism taking a back seat.

If a story such as this gets nothing more than a 2nd page blurb in the newspaper, and a quick mention in the evening TV news (with never a mention of the criminal's name or identity) ... the mass shootings would stop.
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Old 09-18-2013, 11:58   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubdriver View Post
Remove the (in their sick mind) 'reward', and my bet is you'd see a decline in mass shootings. It wouldn't end them completely, because there would still be whack jobs out there, but I am pretty certain there would be fewer.

-Pat
Nonsense, if that had any validity there would be mass shootings every day.
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Old 09-18-2013, 12:02   #17
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As much as I love blaming the liberals for everything bad, didn't Reagan make some pretty massive cuts to mental health facilities? I remember him being blamed, in the mid-80s, for the rise in homeless crazies on the street...

The flip side of the mental health argument is a lady I know, she had a bout with severe depression and dependence on prescription meds a few years ago. No danger to anyone but herself, but she voluntarily committed herself and sought treatment. She got on some meds that worked, got with a counselor, and got better. This was over four years ago. She recently tried to buy a target pistol and her DROS was denied because of it. No criminal history whatsoever. It's absurd.

The unfortunate truth is, there will always be dangerous crazy people, and they will always be able to get weapons. Anyone who thinks the right set of laws can prevent it is kidding themself. Personally, I'm waiting to see how the left/media will spin it the first time some whack-job fails to acquire an AR and goes all Oklahoma City instead.
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Old 09-18-2013, 12:08   #18
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Let's not forget the Soviet practice of locking up the opposition in mental hospitals ... because anyone who opposed the regime is obviously 'nuts' ...

It's all about who counts the votes and who decides "what is 'nuts'" ...

.
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Old 09-18-2013, 12:18   #19
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more knee jerk crap. ofcourse some mass killing are mentally ill, alot are not . if you ask the question on glocktalk how many folks with guns here take meds such as ssri , antidepressants the number would be higher then you think

doctors, lawyers, cops, emt , fireman . and all kinds of folks take meds and they are not crazy .

wanna guess how many folks in this country had surgery from a doctor taking meds ? ofcourse you wont ever know it .



you start with denying people rights based on junk science then you are stepping in to bad territory .
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Old 09-18-2013, 12:25   #20
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oh no, involuntary court ordered mental health evaluations (available to anyone with an open records request) cannot be accessed by NCIC when buying a gun for some reason. not that it matters when the security folks knew about the nut bags problems and cleared him anyway.
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Old 09-18-2013, 14:00   #21
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Years ago, the ACLU got involved in the mental health care system
in the U.S. arguing that states were holding people in psychiatric
hospitals AGAINST THEIR WILL. They determined that these people
have the right to have a voice in their own treatment. They don't
want to be there, you have to let them out.

They finally did get a ruling in their favor which put a lot of
mentally ill people on the street.

You can't do anything with these people until they become an
immediate and imminent threat to themselves or others.

Since states were suddenly relieved of these people they cut
budgets for treatment centers.

Until we can grab these people off the street and force them
into hospitals we're going to have these problems. However,
grabbing people off the street presents it's own set of problems.

The way the media treats these events, they self propagate.
Someone out there somewhere is seeing all the press this guy
is getting and thinking, "Man, I could do that!".

All the Best,
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Old 09-18-2013, 14:24   #22
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Until we can grab these people off the street and force them into hospitals we're going to have these problems.
You're a Libertarian?
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Old 09-18-2013, 17:19   #23
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A large part of the problem is the mental health technology itself. Or rather the lack of it.

Look at it this way. As an electrician, when the job I was doing was done it meant that the electrical system worked 100%. Not 89, or even 99, no, it was 100%.

We here (and not just in America, it's all over) just don't have the technology of how a human being works.

I don't mean this as criticism of mental health professionals, many of them are doing their best and doing under tough conditions and tiny budgets too. But the real tech just isn't there yet.


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Old 09-18-2013, 17:48   #24
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The flip side of the mental health argument is a lady I know, she had a bout with severe depression and dependence on prescription meds a few years ago. No danger to anyone but herself, but she voluntarily committed herself and sought treatment. She got on some meds that worked, got with a counselor, and got better. This was over four years ago. She recently tried to buy a target pistol and her DROS was denied because of it. No criminal history whatsoever. It's absurd.
Similar story here. A friend of mine was having a rough time at work, and was personally going through tough times. She talked to a shrink and admitted she'd occasionally had suicidal thoughts. Shrink suggested a couple of days in a self-admitted inpatient service, which she did. For about 4 hours. Then she realized it wasn't what she needed and - being self-admitted - she checked herself out.

Because she had admitted for inpatient (even though she didn't stay), the state pulled her FOID card. She's fighting to get that back since she didn't commit any crime, wasn't admitted on medical orders, and didn't actually stay.

What will happen is, much like the mother's alleged thinking in Newtown, people simply won't seek help because they don't want to deal with the stigma or other repercussions of seeking that help. That's not exactly a solution to the problem.
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Old 09-18-2013, 18:24   #25
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Quote:
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Let's not forget the Soviet practice of locking up the opposition in mental hospitals ... because anyone who opposed the regime is obviously 'nuts' ...

It's all about who counts the votes and who decides "what is 'nuts'" ...

.
Oppositional Defiance Disorder.

The mental health profession is setting up criteria to go after the Tea Party.
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