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Old 10-29-2013, 18:00   #51
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Old 10-29-2013, 18:10   #52
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Not bad...and most certainly better than I thought it would do. At 1119 fps it is about 100 fps faster than the .40 S&W load.

Thanks to Andrew and Intercooler for all their efforts.
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Old 11-06-2013, 23:11   #53
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thanks for posting the test. After seeing this and comparing it to say the 180gr HST .40 I can't really say for sure which one I'd rather have if I really had to choose. Is it out of line with other opinions that I think the 40 HST 180 might be better?
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Old 11-07-2013, 23:21   #54
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Out of just those two, I'd definitely choose the .40 HST.
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Old 11-08-2013, 00:03   #55
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Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin View Post
Out of just those two, I'd definitely choose the .40 HST.
Well sure. Better expansion and a much easier pistol to carry it in (G22 let's assume). The 27 and 23 carry even better.

I carry my department Winchester Ranger T-Series in 180 gr. in my 40s and Underwood 165 gr. Gold Dots in my 29 and 20. I'm pretty confident either will do the job when/if the time comes.
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Old 11-08-2013, 08:06   #56
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Good choices. Ranger T is an outstanding bullet. I really wish it were available as a component. Underwood 165 gr Gold Dot performs well but I honestly think that bullet does a little better about 100 fps slower.

Intercooler is going to pick up some more of that 175 gr CD stuff and if I ever get done with the other tests I have planned, I might pull a few and load them to around 1,200-1,300 fps.
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Old 11-24-2013, 07:55   #57
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I got some of the Hornady 175 Critical Duty.

It was immediately obvious that the 175 gr. Critical Duty produced less recoil than the Hornady 155 gr. XTP.

Same Glock 29 previously got a 1,278 fps average (562# KE) with 155 XTP.
The 175 gr. Critical Duty produced a 1,077 fps average (451# KE)

I thought the 175 gr. CD kicked less than the 155 XTP and the power factor calculation supports my opinion.
175 gr. @ 1,077 fps = PF 188
155 gr. @ 1,278 fps = PF 198

I shot the 175 Critical Duty into water filled gallon jugs, it exited the 3rd jug and hit the 4th jug hard but did not enter. Recovered bullet expanded to about a consistent .64 - .65 at the widest points.
This ^ is good performance, but nothing special.

The 155 gr. XTP (tested into water filled gallon jugs in the past) penetrated into the 4th jug and measured at about .68 expanded diameter.

Thoughts:
I do not want any more recoil than generated by the 155 XTP (PF 198) as 2nd shot follow up time would be adversely affected.

I'm not sure how I feel about carrying a pistol the size (thickness) of the Glock 29 if the ammo is loaded to 40 S&W KE levels.
Sure, the recoil of the Critical Duty felt mild out of the chunky model 29, but I can get that much KE out of a thinner / smaller Glock 27.

Glock 27:
Winchester Ranger T 165 gr. @ 1,116 fps / 456# KE
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr. @ 1,134 fps / 442# KE

Yes, the 27 could be (is) "snappy" with the Ranger T; however, it certainly is not with Hydra-Shok 180 gr. @ 935 fps / 350# KE.

That comparatively mild 180 gr. 40 S&W Hydra-Shok penetrated (on a previous day) to the back of the 3rd jug of water and expanded to about .68 from the short barrel of the model 27. (About the same result as obtained from the 175 gr. 10mm Critical Duty)

Is the model 29 best compared to a model 27 or 23?

My model 23 averaged:
1,125 fps / 464# KE with 165 gr. Ranger T.
1,171 fps / 472# KE with 155 gr. Gold Dot

10 + 1 of .40 caliber 175 gr. @ 1,077 fps
or
13 + 1 of .40 caliber 165 gr. @ 1,125 fps

Another consideration:
Is the potentially faster 2nd shot time of the 175 Critical Duty worth the 100+# loss of KE compared to the 155 XTP?
In my water jug test, the Critical Duty offered no advantage in penetration or expansion against the XTP.

Isn't increased KE the main reason someone would carry a 10mm instead a 40 S&W?

IMO the Critical Duty 175 could use another 55 fps or so of velocity. At 1,130 fps out of a Glock 29 the calculated PF would be about equal to the 155 XTP and KE would be near 500# (a KE increase over the hotter 40 S&W loads)
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Old 11-24-2013, 08:43   #58
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Good analysis, and I think you are right on the money. The 175 grain Critical Duty is not nearly a full power 10mm load.

The only thing I might add, I guess, is that Hornady advertises the Critical Duty for use in full size (duty) guns. So I would think you would get less performance from a G29 sized gun, at least in Hornady's mind. Also, the difference in weight between 155 grain bullets and 175 grain bullets make it difficult to compare kinetic energy levels. All things considered, lighter bullets driven to faster velocities will show higher kinetic energy then the heavier, slower bullets.

But I again agree that Hornady would have done better by boosting the velocity so it would at least be equivalent to their 180 grain XTP load. Like you said, good performance but nothing special.
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Old 11-24-2013, 08:54   #59
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I have to ask why all the hullabaloo about a 40cal powered 10mm round.... don't we have enough watered down stuff in 10mm already to choose from?
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Old 11-24-2013, 10:17   #60
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Quote:
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I have to ask why all the hullabaloo about a 40cal powered 10mm round.... don't we have enough watered down stuff in 10mm already to choose from?
True. I guess when we see something new come out in 10mm we are hoping for the best, and often getting the least.
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Old 11-24-2013, 10:56   #61
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I'm sending Andrew four more to work up to 1300 FPS. Might change things!
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:12   #62
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Quote:
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I'm sending Andrew four more to work up to 1300 FPS. Might change things!
Nice. Next, we have to contact Hornady.
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:34   #63
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Generally speaking, a 155 gr and 175 gr bullet pushed by the same powder charge will have the same energy but lighter (shorter) bullets allow more room in the case and have a shorter bearing surface and are therefore able to take a higher powder charge so a lighter bullet is often loaded to higher energy levels, producing more felt recoil.

I've said it over and over: full power 10mm isn't really necessary for defense against humans. The FBI didn't reduce the power because their agents are pansies; it is because the higher power loads produce excessive recoil, which means less shots on target in a given period of time. Now you can thump your chest about how macho you are, but it's simply a matter of physics. No matter how manly you are, *you* can shoot lighter recoiling ammunition faster than *you* can shoot heavily recoiling ammunition.

I love the 10mm and I like full power 10mm ammo but I think the real strength of 10mm is its versatility. The full power stuff is better suited to hunting and woods defense where a flat trajectory and/or deep penetration is required.

My EDC gun is a G23 loaded with 180 gr Gold Dot. When I carry the 10mm it is usually loaded with 165 gr Gold Dot at about 1,300 fps, which is faster than .40 S&W but not exactly nuclear. The 175 gr Critical Duty would be a very good choice for defense against humans.

I'd also like to point out that Hydrashok is a very old and obsolete design that often has trouble with heavy clothing and fails to expand.
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:57   #64
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I wish we could do a pull down of the 155 grain Hornady XTP in 10mm. Then we could make some comparisons. It looks like Hornady continues to load the 155 grain XTP in .40, but has suspended it in 10mm.

I like the 165 or 170 grain bullet at 1300 fps for personal defense (or duty) situations. I just would like to see somebody load it at that level. It probably would be just about perfect.
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Old 11-24-2013, 12:06   #65
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I wish we could do a pull down of the 155 grain Hornady XTP in 10mm. Then we could make some comparisons. It looks like Hornady continues to load the 155 grain XTP in .40, but has suspended it in 10mm.

I like the 165 or 170 grain bullet at 1300 fps for personal defense (or duty) situations. I just would like to see somebody load it at that level. It probably would be just about perfect.
Yeah, there are companies loading "FBI lite" type loads and there are companies that load nookular 10mm manbearpig loads but not too many that make just plain regular middle of the road real 10mm ammo. Underwood's Delta Elite loads probably come closest but it looks like they aren't offering them for sale anymore. Maybe I missed it but I can't find them on the UW website.
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Old 11-24-2013, 12:19   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin View Post
Yeah, there are companies loading "FBI lite" type loads and there are companies that load nookular 10mm manbearpig loads but not too many that make just plain regular middle of the road real 10mm ammo. Underwood's Delta Elite loads probably come closest but it looks like they aren't offering them for sale anymore. Maybe I missed it but I can't find them on the UW website.
I have been checking for the last six months and haven't found them. I guess the 1300 fps 180 grain stuff is a big seller for him. Though I think if Kevin made a substantial supply of the Delta Elite load he would see how well it would sell. Me thinks there are plenty of other 10mm shooters who think like we do.
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Old 11-25-2013, 11:45   #67
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I asked Kevin to load the delta-elite 180gr bonded gold dot before he does a run of the nuclear 180gr gold dot load as the delta-elite crowd will need that load, and it is a better load for self defense in any 10mm gun than the faster load.
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Old 11-25-2013, 11:56   #68
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Winchester says their 175gr. STHP gets 1290 fps, which is right were I'd want a 10mm for self defense. the problem is we don't know what rifle barrel they used to get that number.
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Old 11-25-2013, 21:18   #69
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Winchester says their 175gr. STHP gets 1290 fps, which is right were I'd want a 10mm for self defense. the problem is we don't know what rifle barrel they used to get that number.
that's funny, according to ballistics by the inch it would be about an 8.5" barrel to hit the boxflap 1290fps rating. I'm ok with where the silvertip is at, they move pretty good I just wish they were 200gr at 1150.
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Old 11-25-2013, 23:36   #70
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Winchester says their 175gr. STHP gets 1290 fps, which is right were I'd want a 10mm for self defense. the problem is we don't know what rifle barrel they used to get that number.
Certainly not from a 4.6" barrel. They chrony about 1150 through my G20. That is Double Tap-like exaggeration of box flap velocities.

Even still, that is my everyday carry round.
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Old 11-26-2013, 08:53   #71
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Despite their wildly inaccurate claims, I agree, the STs are pretty decent.
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Old 11-26-2013, 15:59   #72
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I have been checking for the last six months and haven't found them. I guess the 1300 fps 180 grain stuff is a big seller for him. Though I think if Kevin made a substantial supply of the Delta Elite load he would see how well it would sell. Me thinks there are plenty of other 10mm shooters who think like we do.
I bought a good amount of the DE load and have 350 rds on hand. That is what I load my glock 20 with. Still a full power load with lower recoil.

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Old 11-27-2013, 11:42   #73
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I thought about this further, I think the Critical Duty 10mm would make a good carry round for my Glock 29 especially in winter. The polymer tip should eliminate the ability heavy clothing to clog the hollow point preventing expansion.

The Hornady 155 XTP with a PF of 198 is pushing my limit for a quick* (about 1/3 second) 2nd shot out of the 29.
* My 2nd shot average time is based on both the 1st and 2nd shot hitting a 6'' circle placed at 6 - 7 yards; hitting out of the 6'' circle or simply inside a silhouette doesn't meet my criteria.

Most comparable alternative:
My Glock 30 (45 acp) is very controllable with either of these loads:
Federal Hydra-Shok 230 gr. @ 807 fps = PF 186
Hornady 185 gr. XTP @ 970 fps = PF 179

The Critical Duty 10mm produced a comparatively controllable PF of 188

Not saying the Critical Duty is a "better" load for SD than either of those 45 acp loads, but the recoil is comparable and capacity is increased; my flush fitting Glock 30 magazines hold 8 rounds versus 10 rounds in the model 29 magazines.
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Old 12-08-2013, 22:26   #74
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I have my Glock 20SF loaded with 16 rounds of the 175 grain Hornady Critical Duty, but that is because I can't find any 10mm Winchester Silvertip ammo to buy.
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