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Old 10-02-2013, 05:37   #41
mag360
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I'd really like to put real 10mm in my gun! still have hst 180 40s&w and my conversion barrel in as my bedside gun next to my edc g26. Its such a great bullet imo that I don't mind since the g20 platform is so flexible and I can easily switch to full power if I want.
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Old 10-02-2013, 09:18   #42
Andrew Wiggin
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The HST is a great bullet. Did you see my 10mm HST test? I think the versatility of the 10mm is its greatest strength. There are a lot of great defense loads for 10mm. Why not try Underwood 165 gr Gold Dot?

For the record, a rifle or shotgun make a far better home defense weapon than any pistol. Even 10mm
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Old 10-02-2013, 15:48   #43
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yeah I saw your 10mm HST handload test, that was pretty awesome. I don't like underwood for inside the home because they don't use flash suppressed powders. I'd use a shotgun but I only have a saiga 12 ( well and my great great grandfathers 1909 Remington A5) and I can't reload it since in California im required to have a magazine lock on it as a mag-fed shotgun. Looking to get an 870P here very soon. probably within the next two weeks. Although the saiga 12 with 10 rounds and no reload is probably just as much as an 870 with a side saddle could hold anyways LOL.
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Old 10-02-2013, 17:23   #44
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How would anyone ever find out that the lock was just laying on the nightstand next to the Saiga?
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Old 10-02-2013, 19:48   #45
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The risk would be getting charged with illegal assault weapon possession after defending my life from a home invasion. It is insane I know but DA's here would paint me as an illegal assault weapons horder that deserved to get robbed likely because I must be a gang member or worse because normal people don't own guns like this while holding up the "machine gun" shotgun in front of news cameras. Long sentence lol. I need to leave this mind numbingly absurd state for free america. Have a rwally good job though but not being treated like a damn criminal would feel amazing. Cant even sell a gun to my brother without a $35 background check and 10 day wait.
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Old 10-03-2013, 15:15   #46
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If the gun is legal, he can't charge you with it being illegal. If a shooting is justified, the weapon used is irrelevant. If it's not justified, you have bigger problems. I'd like to punch Mas Ayoob in the nose for perpetuating this belief that you're gonna go to jail because of the weapon you chose. He pointed to a couple of very extreme circumstances with complicating factors as "evidence" like the Harold Fish case or the one where the guy shot some bikers with an AC556 but no one has ever been able to show me a case where a regular guy was convicted in a clear cut case of defense solely because of the gun used, especially in their own home.

More importantly, you must survive the encounter to be convicted. Use the most effective LEGAL tool you have at your disposal and act in a legal manner. Create as much evidence as possible by calling 911 and putting them on speaker phone if you have the time and you might even think about putting up a couple cheap wireless IP cameras like the Foscam.
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Old 10-03-2013, 23:15   #47
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my response implied I would be removing the magazine lock thereby creating an "assault weapon" like you said. It would no longer be in legal configuration. I don't really have a problem using the gun for self defense with the magazine lock on, I just choose not too because it can't be reloaded.

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Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin View Post
If the gun is legal, he can't charge you with it being illegal. If a shooting is justified, the weapon used is irrelevant. If it's not justified, you have bigger problems. I'd like to punch Mas Ayoob in the nose for perpetuating this belief that you're gonna go to jail because of the weapon you chose. He pointed to a couple of very extreme circumstances with complicating factors as "evidence" like the Harold Fish case or the one where the guy shot some bikers with an AC556 but no one has ever been able to show me a case where a regular guy was convicted in a clear cut case of defense solely because of the gun used, especially in their own home.

More importantly, you must survive the encounter to be convicted. Use the most effective LEGAL tool you have at your disposal and act in a legal manner. Create as much evidence as possible by calling 911 and putting them on speaker phone if you have the time and you might even think about putting up a couple cheap wireless IP cameras like the Foscam.
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Old 10-04-2013, 22:08   #48
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I'm sorry. I totally misunderstood. I was thinking of a cable lock threaded through the magazine well. Derp. I get you now. I feel like a dumbass.
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Old 10-11-2013, 16:08   #49
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Sorry, I'm late to the party--finally got a chance to get down to Cabela's today to grab some CD. Had to laugh to myself when I was buying that, along with some reloading stuff, because I went there fully-armed with my trusty LCP! I'll be switching over to G29 for the next firearm in my rotation.

Thank you for testing them out and reporting, intercooler
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Old 10-11-2013, 20:01   #50
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JMO

I don't care what LEO's and DA's think about ammo! I live in Oklahoma! And what comes off my reloading bench is near prefect.

I'm a XTP shooter. The bullets are cheap enough for me to practice with in my loads. And honestly I have never had one fail on me. Yeah they can shed some weight. But they always open up to spec or better. I have done a tad of gel testing and ran some of my loads over a crono. I load XTP's max or above published Hornady 7th and 3rd editions. I have not found away to make a bad round. Be it .380, .38, .357, 9mm, 10mm or .45. And I will soon be loading .357 Sig for my G31.

XTP's have always been accurate for me. Regardless of load. They have a great bearing surface. SD may be less than others and ogive can be a issue in some folks mind. But I like how they grab the lands and grooves and gas seal. I like shooting my rounds and seeing clean brass with no leakage. No black or bluing of the brass. Basically hard hitting ammo.

As for HD and SD use. In the public domain I'm all for running before I draw and fire. I will yell scream and run before I draw and fire. In HD use? I don't care. I have my shooting lanes, thus my points of engagement and angles/elevation of fire.

I'm so glad I don't have to count on over priced retail ammo. And worry about leo's and da's here.

Last edited by blastfact; 10-11-2013 at 20:03..
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Old 10-29-2013, 18:00   #51
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Old 10-29-2013, 18:10   #52
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Not bad...and most certainly better than I thought it would do. At 1119 fps it is about 100 fps faster than the .40 S&W load.

Thanks to Andrew and Intercooler for all their efforts.
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Old 11-07-2013, 00:11   #53
mag360
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thanks for posting the test. After seeing this and comparing it to say the 180gr HST .40 I can't really say for sure which one I'd rather have if I really had to choose. Is it out of line with other opinions that I think the 40 HST 180 might be better?
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Old 11-08-2013, 00:21   #54
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Out of just those two, I'd definitely choose the .40 HST.
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Old 11-08-2013, 01:03   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin View Post
Out of just those two, I'd definitely choose the .40 HST.
Well sure. Better expansion and a much easier pistol to carry it in (G22 let's assume). The 27 and 23 carry even better.

I carry my department Winchester Ranger T-Series in 180 gr. in my 40s and Underwood 165 gr. Gold Dots in my 29 and 20. I'm pretty confident either will do the job when/if the time comes.
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Old 11-08-2013, 09:06   #56
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Good choices. Ranger T is an outstanding bullet. I really wish it were available as a component. Underwood 165 gr Gold Dot performs well but I honestly think that bullet does a little better about 100 fps slower.

Intercooler is going to pick up some more of that 175 gr CD stuff and if I ever get done with the other tests I have planned, I might pull a few and load them to around 1,200-1,300 fps.
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Old 11-24-2013, 08:55   #57
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I got some of the Hornady 175 Critical Duty.

It was immediately obvious that the 175 gr. Critical Duty produced less recoil than the Hornady 155 gr. XTP.

Same Glock 29 previously got a 1,278 fps average (562# KE) with 155 XTP.
The 175 gr. Critical Duty produced a 1,077 fps average (451# KE)

I thought the 175 gr. CD kicked less than the 155 XTP and the power factor calculation supports my opinion.
175 gr. @ 1,077 fps = PF 188
155 gr. @ 1,278 fps = PF 198

I shot the 175 Critical Duty into water filled gallon jugs, it exited the 3rd jug and hit the 4th jug hard but did not enter. Recovered bullet expanded to about a consistent .64 - .65 at the widest points.
This ^ is good performance, but nothing special.

The 155 gr. XTP (tested into water filled gallon jugs in the past) penetrated into the 4th jug and measured at about .68 expanded diameter.

Thoughts:
I do not want any more recoil than generated by the 155 XTP (PF 198) as 2nd shot follow up time would be adversely affected.

I'm not sure how I feel about carrying a pistol the size (thickness) of the Glock 29 if the ammo is loaded to 40 S&W KE levels.
Sure, the recoil of the Critical Duty felt mild out of the chunky model 29, but I can get that much KE out of a thinner / smaller Glock 27.

Glock 27:
Winchester Ranger T 165 gr. @ 1,116 fps / 456# KE
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr. @ 1,134 fps / 442# KE

Yes, the 27 could be (is) "snappy" with the Ranger T; however, it certainly is not with Hydra-Shok 180 gr. @ 935 fps / 350# KE.

That comparatively mild 180 gr. 40 S&W Hydra-Shok penetrated (on a previous day) to the back of the 3rd jug of water and expanded to about .68 from the short barrel of the model 27. (About the same result as obtained from the 175 gr. 10mm Critical Duty)

Is the model 29 best compared to a model 27 or 23?

My model 23 averaged:
1,125 fps / 464# KE with 165 gr. Ranger T.
1,171 fps / 472# KE with 155 gr. Gold Dot

10 + 1 of .40 caliber 175 gr. @ 1,077 fps
or
13 + 1 of .40 caliber 165 gr. @ 1,125 fps

Another consideration:
Is the potentially faster 2nd shot time of the 175 Critical Duty worth the 100+# loss of KE compared to the 155 XTP?
In my water jug test, the Critical Duty offered no advantage in penetration or expansion against the XTP.

Isn't increased KE the main reason someone would carry a 10mm instead a 40 S&W?

IMO the Critical Duty 175 could use another 55 fps or so of velocity. At 1,130 fps out of a Glock 29 the calculated PF would be about equal to the 155 XTP and KE would be near 500# (a KE increase over the hotter 40 S&W loads)
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Last edited by CDW4ME; 11-24-2013 at 08:57..
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Old 11-24-2013, 09:43   #58
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Good analysis, and I think you are right on the money. The 175 grain Critical Duty is not nearly a full power 10mm load.

The only thing I might add, I guess, is that Hornady advertises the Critical Duty for use in full size (duty) guns. So I would think you would get less performance from a G29 sized gun, at least in Hornady's mind. Also, the difference in weight between 155 grain bullets and 175 grain bullets make it difficult to compare kinetic energy levels. All things considered, lighter bullets driven to faster velocities will show higher kinetic energy then the heavier, slower bullets.

But I again agree that Hornady would have done better by boosting the velocity so it would at least be equivalent to their 180 grain XTP load. Like you said, good performance but nothing special.
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Old 11-24-2013, 09:54   #59
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I have to ask why all the hullabaloo about a 40cal powered 10mm round.... don't we have enough watered down stuff in 10mm already to choose from?
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:17   #60
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Quote:
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I have to ask why all the hullabaloo about a 40cal powered 10mm round.... don't we have enough watered down stuff in 10mm already to choose from?
True. I guess when we see something new come out in 10mm we are hoping for the best, and often getting the least.
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