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Old 09-08-2013, 07:29   #1
WT
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NYPD to Replace Revolvers with Semiautomatics



For you NYPD history buffs, here is a link to a 20 year old article from The New York Times dealing with the change.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/08/21/ny...utomatics.html

A blast from the past. The retired NYPD coppers here on GT should get a kick out of the article. Famous names - Phil Caruso, Mayor Dingbat, Giuliani and of course, Popeye.

Last edited by WT; 09-08-2013 at 08:04..
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Old 09-08-2013, 07:54   #2
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In my academy class (1995), their entire firearms policy, manual of arms and such was used. Magazines restricted to 10, only ball ammo, 12 pound trigger pulls.

Still, much of it made good sense such as having several options to choose from which is still pretty rare amongst large agencies, BUG's...
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Old 09-08-2013, 08:53   #3
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WT thanks for posting that. Brought back a lot of bad memories. Ray Kelly (Popeye) the miserable prick that he is did everything he could to prevent the transition to 9mm's within the NYPD. Thank God he was booted out by Giuliani prior to the transition commencement. Those 10 round magazines never hit the street.

Here is something I wrote about the transition;

NYPD Transition to 9MM Pistols


NYPD's transition to auto pistols took over seven years. It commenced after Police Commissioner Ben Ward and the Chief of Department were found to be carrying Glock pistols during the time frame when all uniformed Members of the Service (MOS) were restricted to a short list of revolvers as duty weapons and civilian licensees were forbidden from listing Glock pistols on their licenses. As a result of this embarrassment, a pilot program involving the distribution of less than 200 Glock pistols to specialized units was commenced in 1986-87. They went to Narcotics, Homicide, TARU. the PC's detail, Major Case Squad and a few others. None went to patrol.

ESU was given the Beretta M-9. They were truck guns, meaning the E-men carried their revolvers on their gun belts and were allowed to take the Berettas out on "special occasions". The long and the short of the Beretta issue was that they were not sturdy enough, being prone to breakage at the locking block. They were utilized by ESU for a few years and were removed once Patrol was given access to the 9mm program.

Move on a couple of years to 1991 and intense pressure from the PBA forced the job to institute a patrol testing phase. In that phase ONLY Sergeant's chauffers were given 9 mm's to field test with the theory being that the boss would keep them under control and prevent unnecessary high-round count shootings. The Sergeants, however were still relegated to revolvers. Logical, no?

Weapons tested in this phase included the Glock 19, Sigs-Sauer P 226 DAO, Ruger P-89, and Smith & Wesson 5946. The Glock 19 was chosen so that all issued pistols had the same magazine capacity. The Rugers got dropped first. They proved to be too fragile and just too damn big. During this phase the Firearms and Tactics section began to provide separate data for revolvers and semi-auto’s in their yearly SOP-9 evaluation of MOS involved shootings.

By this time, the tide was turning and it was obvious to MOS that the job was going to eventually transition to the 9mm sem-auto pistol, but that it would drag its’ feet mercilessly on the road to doing so.

This brings us up to the job-wide transition in '93. The first class of open applicants from patrol was in March of '94 (I was in it). The guns were still the Glock, Sig, and Smith. That first class went to the equipment section and got their guns and accessories only to find that the guns all had neutered 10 round magazines issued with them. Outgoing Police Commissioner Ray Kelly had stipulated the smaller capacity mags for the 9mm’s once the patrol transition program began. He did everything he could to prevent the transition to sem-auto’s from ever taking place. Those limited capacity magazines were his last spiteful swipe at the transition program. It was due to overwhelming pressure applied by the PBA that the changeover to semi-auto's came about in spite of his obstructionist behavior.

Sometimes the fates intervene in a good way. In this instance fate took the form of a female PO who was in a beauty salon shootout. This happened the month before our transition class was to begin. She was up in Brooklyn North getting her hair done with one of those plastic drop cloths hanging off her neck when three mutts armed with nines came in and announced a stickup. Using the drop cloth as concealment for her movements she drew her five shot .38 and engaged them. One DOA and the others were deterred from their criminal enterprise. However, after running her gun dry she was attacked and pistol whipped by one of the mutts prior to him making his escape.


In the intervening time frame Ray Kelly departed and Rudolph Giuliani appointed William Bratton as the new Police Commissioner. That incident in the beauty parlor caused Bratton to decide that enough was enough. He was tired of the "outgunned" NYPD situation and the first thing that happened on the first day of transition training was that all of the ten-round magazines were collected by the Range Officers and replaced with 15 round units. The 10 round magazines NEVER made it to the street. From that time on, the transition proceeded quickly, with the original ammo being 115 gr. Winchester ball. Years later, after the Amadou Diallo episode the Department transitioned to the current load, a Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. +P hollowpoint round.

Now as to the NY trigger. It was not designed nor requested by NYPD. The NY 1 trigger was designed by Glock at the request of the NY State (NYSP) Police for their transition to semi-autos. It was supposed to provide a more revolver-like feel to the trigger as an aid to those MOS who had spent years carrying and qualifying with revolvers. It brought the stock trigger break up from about 5 lbs. to about 8 lbs. After an ND incident that was blamed on the gun rather than the shooter in a Long Island department (somewhere in Suffolk County I believe) another modification request was presented to Glock by that department and lo and behold they gave birth to the abortion known as the NY 2 trigger. It brought the trigger break up to a lovely 12 lbs.. THAT is the trigger that NYPD uses, however, our Department had nothing to do with the development of it. Many people assume that it was brought forth by our Department because of the nomenclature but that is a myth that will not die.

ALL of the weapons approved for duty use are modified to provide the same approximate weight of trigger release, which is approximately 12 lbs.
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Last edited by seanmac45; 09-08-2013 at 09:15..
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Old 09-08-2013, 09:12   #4
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Great write-up!!!
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Old 09-08-2013, 09:15   #5
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Thanks!
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Old 09-08-2013, 09:22   #6
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Those autos are just a fad.

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Old 09-08-2013, 09:52   #7
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I knew NYPD had heavier triggers, but didn't know it was 12 lbs! Is there some easy way I can approximate that with my G17, just to see what it is like out of curiosity?
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Old 09-08-2013, 09:53   #8
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Seanmac45, thanks Brother......Nice recap of the good ole days.... I believe it was P.O Arlene Beckles that was involved in the off duty shootout in Brooklyn North. She became Detective Beckles a short time later......
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Old 09-08-2013, 10:28   #9
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Agree. Great write up and read seanmac45.
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Old 09-08-2013, 10:43   #10
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I had to chuckle every time it was mentioned that the semi automatics with their 15 round magazines were "too dangerous for urban and subway use"..
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Old 09-08-2013, 10:49   #11
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Holy Jamoley...... 12lbs for a trigger pull...... I can't fathom that.... Thats 3x heaver than the 4lb pull on my 1911.....

Great write up though, it's always cool to hear how thing were back then.
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Old 09-08-2013, 10:57   #12
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Just amazing that people who are that ignorant about firearms are allowed to run police departments.
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Old 09-08-2013, 11:04   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajon412 View Post
Seanmac45, thanks Brother......Nice recap of the good ole days.... I believe it was P.O Arlene Beckles that was involved in the off duty shootout in Brooklyn North. She became Detective Beckles a short time later......
You are, indeed, correct sir. I left her name out of the article for very specific reasons.

Thanks,

Sean
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Old 09-08-2013, 11:06   #14
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While I agree that 12 lbs. is egregious in a semi-auto, the reality is that the same weight trigger pull is what is found on most double action revolvers.

Those of us who started our careers as wheelgun coppers don't have too much of a hard time with it. But that doesn't make it smart.
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Old 09-08-2013, 11:12   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tvov View Post
I knew NYPD had heavier triggers, but didn't know it was 12 lbs! Is there some easy way I can approximate that with my G17, just to see what it is like out of curiosity?
Any Glock armorer should be able to install the + connector and the orange trigger spring. Voila! 12 lb. trigger.
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Old 09-08-2013, 11:19   #16
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I remember sitting at the office reading an article in a magazine about the 9mm adoption by NYPD and the magazine limitation. Something to the effect high capacity magazines cause fear in minorities or so such insane thing.
I just shook my head and couldn't believe it. Political PC BS at its finest. I felt truly bad for every NYPD officer immediately just from that one glance into their environment.

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Old 09-08-2013, 11:56   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tvov View Post
Is there some easy way I can approximate that with my G17, just to see what it is like out of curiosity?
Try pulling the trigger on your G17 with your pinky finger. Of your weak hand!
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Old 09-08-2013, 12:03   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanmac45 View Post
Any Glock armorer should be able to install the + connector and the orange trigger spring. Voila! 12 lb. trigger.
Yep. Takes maybe a whole minute if you go slowly and waste time with idle chatter.
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Old 09-08-2013, 12:21   #19
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Any Glock armorer should be able to install the + connector and the orange trigger spring. Voila! 12 lb. trigger.
lol, I didn't say I wanted my Glock to have a 12lb trigger pull, just wanted to see what it was like.

If it is like my 357 revolver shooting double action... that's a lot of trigger pull!
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Old 09-08-2013, 12:26   #20
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Much shorter travel than a revolver.

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Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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