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Old 09-07-2013, 00:54   #176
RagnarDanneskjold
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Only genetics can make you smart. Education does not, never has, and never will make anyone smarter than they were when they were born. Education (at its best) is about giving you information and teaching skills, especially the skills of researching a subject, critical thinking, and how to educate yourself. Education, at its worst, is pure social/political modification, indoctrination, etc.

No amount of education can make a stupid man smart. No matter how smart you are, you will never change the world without an education. The two are inextricably linked, but totally unrelated.
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Old 09-07-2013, 01:19   #177
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Because most are taught WHAT to think. Relatively few are taught HOW to think.
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Old 09-07-2013, 02:06   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GVFlyer View Post
I resent your allegations, Rabbi. If I had integrity issues I would not have accomplished a 25 year career as an Army officer with two below the zone promotions.

While I'm not sure why you are concerned with my friend's academic credential when what is central to this conversation are his words, what I can do is provide context for my association with him while attempting to protect everyone's privacy.

What I have stated here is what's on his curriculum vitae.

I met him while my daughter was at Harvard Business School. Parental visits and the auditing of classes are encouraged there.

Due to my daughters healthcare expertise (she was sponsored at Harvard and is currently the COO of a $40B healthcare company), she was assigned a special project for Reggie Herzlinger. My friend to be was an associate of Ms. Herzlinger (and Ray Kursweil and his son Ethan for that matter). On one of my visits, my daughter found time on her calendar to invite me to lunch with him thinking that it would make for an interesting meal. She was right and we became friends.

This document is as far as I am willing to go for the sake of verification.

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Not one bit of that changes or even addresses anything that is factually incorrect with the story as you told it.
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Old 09-07-2013, 06:20   #179
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Money is what makes you smart. Period.
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Old 09-07-2013, 06:25   #180
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Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
You need to understand how professors operate. They have 3 duties.

1) Teach
2) Publish
3) Bring in research projects. By bring in research projects, this means bring in projects that bring in money.

The projects are what get published.

No projects, no publishing. No publishing, no credibility and not wanted to teach.

So, when a "student" comes with a funded project that the professor can be in charge of (and get publishing credits on) it is a win-win.

A non-funded student, the university (professors) must find funded projects from them to work on.

When you try and find funded projects, you understand why bringing funding makes for a very good student.
Slightly modified list LOL:

1. Publish peer-reviewed journal papers.
2. Acquire funded projects.
23. (LOL) Publish other stuff, like conference papers.
24. Teach well
25. Professional service

What you've typed in this post is about right. If a student shows up and is self-funded (occasionally happens), or if he has his own funded project (very rare in my experience, but possible), that's HUGE for me. Grant proposals are very difficult to write, take a lot of time, and are very very often declined.

Your previous post didn't match my experience and observations, though. By "study at the university," I assume you meant take classes and be in town during the bulk of his program. While what you typed is possible, I've never seen anything like it happen. People always seem to end up taking classes and need lots of direct supervision. A committee of professors must sign the line also.

As an aside, I don't think people (not you necessarily) give the dissertation as much credit as it deserves. Writing a dissertation is extremely difficult. Research itself is extremely difficult. There's also the lack of writing skills. The gap from good writer at the MS level to PhD is not like a crack in the sidewalk. Probably closer to Grand Canyon LOL. It's fairly common for a guy to have extremely high undergrad grades, cruise through his MS program, cruise through coursework in his PhD program, and get totally bogged down at the dissertation, and end up quitting. If a guy gets a dissertation past a committee of professors, he's almost certainly done something impressive.
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Old 09-07-2013, 08:48   #181
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Originally Posted by BradD View Post
Slightly modified list LOL:

1. Publish peer-reviewed journal papers.
2. Acquire funded projects.
23. (LOL) Publish other stuff, like conference papers.
24. Teach well
25. Professional service

What you've typed in this post is about right. If a student shows up and is self-funded (occasionally happens), or if he has his own funded project (very rare in my experience, but possible), that's HUGE for me. Grant proposals are very difficult to write, take a lot of time, and are very very often declined.
The previous company I worked (A Swiss company) for came with a research project and funding in the 8 digit range to a university. One "stipulation" was three employees of the company worked on the research and were able to write their dissertations. Where the employees did their "research" was chosen by the company; not the university. Basically, they worked their job and showed up occasionally to meet with the Prof and other grad students on the project. Much of the "research" was managing the project.



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Your previous post didn't match my experience and observations, though. By "study at the university," I assume you meant take classes and be in town during the bulk of his program. While what you typed is possible, I've never seen anything like it happen. People always seem to end up taking classes and need lots of direct supervision. A committee of professors must sign the line also.
See the above.

My current employer (German) basically funds the program (about 80% of all funding for the program) in a medical university for the market we are in. The branch of the medical for this is actually named after our company (hence, why I dont tell you what this university is..google fu will quickly tell you where I work). It is considered the premier European university for this indication. We always have 4 to 5 grad student interns at the company. Right now the guy I work closest with is "attending" the university and "working" on his PhD. In reality, he isnt putting any effort into his dissertation and wont get his degree until it is done.
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Old 09-07-2013, 08:50   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BradD View Post
As an aside, I don't think people (not you necessarily) give the dissertation as much credit as it deserves. Writing a dissertation is extremely difficult. Research itself is extremely difficult. There's also the lack of writing skills. The gap from good writer at the MS level to PhD is not like a crack in the sidewalk. Probably closer to Grand Canyon LOL. It's fairly common for a guy to have extremely high undergrad grades, cruise through his MS program, cruise through coursework in his PhD program, and get totally bogged down at the dissertation, and end up quitting. If a guy gets a dissertation past a committee of professors, he's almost certainly done something impressive.
I work with Europeans that are ESL... That makes dealing with writing in English even more interesting. Many many research papers are written in english in Europe and not in their native language.
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Old 09-07-2013, 10:15   #183
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Interesting stuff. I'm guessing your experience is probably pretty unique. I don't know how non-engineering PhD programs and funding work, however.
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Old 09-07-2013, 10:37   #184
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I work with Europeans that are ESL... That makes dealing with writing in English even more interesting. Many many research papers are written in english in Europe and not in their native language.
I bet.

Based on my experience at two reputable universities, even US-born writers almost always reek coming out of their BS or even MS program. All of them can use good grammar, but they almost universally struggle with organization, logical flow, deciding what to emphasize more or less, and being precise and specific enough. Some have issues with word economy also, but that's a lesser problem. Editing technical writing is the hardest and most frustrating part of my job.

We've been trying to think of ways to improve the situation in the undergrad curriculum, but nobody has come up with a promising idea. To develop a good writer, one has to give good instructions, then bleed dry a red pen marking up attempt after attempt until the student gets it. MS and PhD student TAs aren't good enough writers to do this. English profs don't know what we're looking for (logical flow, data presentation, etc.) well enough to teach that stuff, so they can't. It falls on engineering professors, but we literally do not have time to do this for the number of undergrads we have. We're still thinking...
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Old 09-07-2013, 10:53   #185
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I bet.

Based on my experience at two reputable universities, even US-born writers almost always reek coming out of their BS or even MS program. All of them can use good grammar, but they almost universally struggle with organization, logical flow, deciding what to emphasize more or less, and being precise and specific enough. Some have issues with word economy also, but that's a lesser problem. Editing technical writing is the hardest and most frustrating part of my job.

We've been trying to think of ways to improve the situation in the undergrad curriculum, but nobody has come up with a promising idea. To develop a good writer, one has to give good instructions, then bleed dry a red pen marking up attempt after attempt until the student gets it. MS and PhD student TAs aren't good enough writers to do this. English profs don't know what we're looking for (logical flow, data presentation, etc.) well enough to teach that stuff, so they can't. It falls on engineering professors, but we literally do not have time to do this for the number of undergrads we have. We're still thinking...
What you are dealing with, making general statements, is more math/science based people. They typically arent as "good" at writing as more "touchy feely" programs. Add to this that English (grammar, writing, etc) in High school, even the AP level, are taught by English majors. They think good writing is copying shakespear and being able to write a "literary work." They put no stock in technical writing. It is boring to them.

Why say in 4 words, what you can ramble on for 3 pages of colorful writing using a thesaurus as your main reference to say?

You are trying in one (or two) semesters to un-program how they have been taught.
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Old 09-07-2013, 10:54   #186
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Interesting stuff. I'm guessing your experience is probably pretty unique. I don't know how non-engineering PhD programs and funding work, however.
The programs that the companies I have worked for sponsor are engineering / medical based.

It is hard to separate the engineering and medical from medical devices.

I am not sure which is stranger, teaching engineers biology/anatomy or medical people engineering.
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Old 09-07-2013, 11:24   #187
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I resent your allegations, Rabbi. If I had integrity issues I would not have accomplished a 25 year career as an Army officer with two below the zone promotions.

While I'm not sure why you are concerned with my friend's academic credential when what is central to this conversation are his words, what I can do is provide context for my association with him while attempting to protect everyone's privacy.

What I have stated here is what's on his curriculum vitae.

I met him while my daughter was at Harvard Business School. Parental visits and the auditing of classes are encouraged there.

Due to my daughters healthcare expertise (she was sponsored at Harvard and is currently the COO of a $40B healthcare company), she was assigned a special project for Reggie Herzlinger. My friend to be was an associate of Ms. Herzlinger (and Ray Kursweil and his son Ethan for that matter). On one of my visits, my daughter found time on her calendar to invite me to lunch with him thinking that it would make for an interesting meal. She was right and we became friends.

This document is as far as I am willing to go for the sake of verification.

The Okie Corral
Sweet, this has the potential to rival the receipt for the suit from a few years back.
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Old 09-07-2013, 11:58   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
...I am not sure which is stranger, teaching engineers biology/anatomy or medical people engineering.
Good question. We have a biomedical engineering program. Your company probably employs folks in that discipline. Sounds like you're into some neat stuff!

I do research on vibrations, specifically human-structure interaction. I know just a little about how humans perceive whole-body vibrations, but that's about as deep as I've gotten into the human side.
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Old 09-07-2013, 12:00   #189
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You say he never dropped out of Medical School but was accepted to an MD/PhD program and decided to do the PhD part. It doest work that way. You do two years of Medical School first. So, he must have made the choice to only do the PhD before he ever started Medical School....but you say he wanted to be a Doctor before he began his studies.

<<SNIP>>

That is not quibbling.
It is quibbling.

If I simply look at this page:
http://www.hms.harvard.edu/md_phd/gr...lass_2012.html

Ph.D., Harvard University in BBS-BCMP (2010)
DISSERTATION: Adaptor proteins regulate cellular functions in the context of a dynamic membrane interface
Advisor: Dr. David Golan
M.D., Harvard Medical School (2012)

Ph.D., Harvard University in BPH (2009)
DISSERTATION: Epigenetic regulation of virulence gene expression in Plasmodium falciparum
Advisor: Dr. Manoj Duraisingh
M.D., Harvard Medical School (2012)

There are more....

Maybe you have different math than me

But the statement...

"You do two years of Medical School first. "

Doesnt seem quite right.

I see PhD in 2010 THEN MD in 2012

The next one PhD in 2009 and then MD in 2012.

So, is you statement correct or those dates correct?
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Old 09-07-2013, 12:18   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
It is quibbling.

If I simply look at this page:
http://www.hms.harvard.edu/md_phd/gr...lass_2012.html

Ph.D., Harvard University in BBS-BCMP (2010)
DISSERTATION: Adaptor proteins regulate cellular functions in the context of a dynamic membrane interface
Advisor: Dr. David Golan
M.D., Harvard Medical School (2012)

Ph.D., Harvard University in BPH (2009)
DISSERTATION: Epigenetic regulation of virulence gene expression in Plasmodium falciparum
Advisor: Dr. Manoj Duraisingh
M.D., Harvard Medical School (2012)

There are more....

Maybe you have different math than me

But the statement...

"You do two years of Medical School first. "

Doesnt seem quite right.

I see PhD in 2010 THEN MD in 2012

The next one PhD in 2009 and then MD in 2012.

So, is you statement correct or those dates correct?
You are correct.
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Old 09-07-2013, 12:22   #191
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Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
The programs that the companies I have worked for sponsor are engineering / medical based.

It is hard to separate the engineering and medical from medical devices.

I am not sure which is stranger, teaching engineers biology/anatomy or medical people engineering.
Two of my dorm mates in college got degrees in mechanical engineering. One was planning on becoming a doctor but changed his mind and got an advanced engineering degree and worked for NASA. The other got his MD and became a general practitioner.
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Old 09-07-2013, 12:46   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
It is quibbling.

If I simply look at this page:
http://www.hms.harvard.edu/md_phd/gr...lass_2012.html

Ph.D., Harvard University in BBS-BCMP (2010)
DISSERTATION: Adaptor proteins regulate cellular functions in the context of a dynamic membrane interface
Advisor: Dr. David Golan
M.D., Harvard Medical School (2012)

Ph.D., Harvard University in BPH (2009)
DISSERTATION: Epigenetic regulation of virulence gene expression in Plasmodium falciparum
Advisor: Dr. Manoj Duraisingh
M.D., Harvard Medical School (2012)

There are more....

Maybe you have different math than me

But the statement...

"You do two years of Medical School first. "

Doesnt seem quite right.

I see PhD in 2010 THEN MD in 2012

The next one PhD in 2009 and then MD in 2012.

So, is you statement correct or those dates correct?
I really dont understand what is so hard to understand about this.

Here are the claims Made:

He was in an MD/PhD program

He has a PhD from Harvard Medical School.

He wanted to be a doctor until he started his studies and found that doctors at Harvard where not that Intelligent.

So he only Continued in the PhD program.


It has been proven that Harvard Medical School does not grant PhD's. He as never addressed this claim.

It has been shown that people do their first two years of medical school first, with the exception of a summer program before anything starts. So the question is raised, in this summer program, is this were this person decided Harvard doctors are not that smart...before he ever took a single class at Harvard Medical school? In general you also dont even formally apply to your PhD program untill your second year (after a year of Medical School)....none of this has even been addressed.


The story is demonstrably false as it was told. He has never addressed the flaws in the story. He talks about how honest he is. He talks about how he knows the guy and he talks about his Daughters own degree at Harvard....but he has not touched the flaws in the story he tells.


Your post does nothing to address the flaws in his story either. It stengthens my case in the fact that at least a year or two of medical school was already done at some point prior. Your post also proves my point in that you will see the MD is granted from Harvard Medical School and the PhD is granted from Harvard University.

This explains it perfectly. You do 2 years of Medical School first. Get your PhD in year 6 and then your last 2 years of Med School.

http://www.hms.harvard.edu/md_phd/pr..._sequence.html

The conclusions you have drawn are demonstrably false and proves my case.
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Old 09-07-2013, 12:56   #193
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I haven't read the entire thread, but I'm sure others have posted my belief which is....education just makes you more educated, not necessarily smarter. Humans have a range of how bright their candle burns. Also, "smart" means different things to different people. To me, it isn't how much knowledge you can remember, but the better ability to figure things out along with a high level of reasoning abilities.
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Old 09-07-2013, 13:44   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
It is quibbling.

If I simply look at this page:
http://www.hms.harvard.edu/md_phd/gr...lass_2012.html

Ph.D., Harvard University in BBS-BCMP (2010)
DISSERTATION: Adaptor proteins regulate cellular functions in the context of a dynamic membrane interface
Advisor: Dr. David Golan
M.D., Harvard Medical School (2012)

Ph.D., Harvard University in BPH (2009)
DISSERTATION: Epigenetic regulation of virulence gene expression in Plasmodium falciparum
Advisor: Dr. Manoj Duraisingh
M.D., Harvard Medical School (2012)

There are more....

Maybe you have different math than me

But the statement...

"You do two years of Medical School first. "

Doesnt seem quite right.

I see PhD in 2010 THEN MD in 2012

The next one PhD in 2009 and then MD in 2012.

So, is you statement correct or those dates correct?
The statement was that the guy/genius in question was in Harvard's MD/Ph.D program.
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Old 09-07-2013, 15:48   #195
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Our Country is run by highly educated people. Enough said!
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Old 09-07-2013, 18:49   #196
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Our Country is run by highly educated people. Enough said!
Would you rather have a bunch of high school dropouts?
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Old 09-07-2013, 20:19   #197
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Education can only fix ignorance. There is no cure for stupid.
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Old 09-07-2013, 20:26   #198
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Our Country is run by highly educated people. Enough said!
This thread was fascinating until just now. HH
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Old 09-07-2013, 20:50   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .264 magnum View Post
The statement was that the guy/genius in question was in Harvard's MD/Ph.D program.
DanaT obviously doesn't know how the MD/PhD program works. His statement proves not only my math but exactly what the Harvard Website says...not anything against my claims.
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Old 09-07-2013, 22:55   #200
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There are credentials and there are educations.


A BS followed by a MS followed by a PhD is a credential.


An education is gotten in various ways and never ends.
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