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Old 09-05-2013, 22:40   #126
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Yes, those are indeed joint programs....and if you look through each of them you will discover exactly what I have said is true. Harvard Medical School does not grant PhDs (or MBA's or whatever)

If you are in an MD/PhD program. Harvard Medical School will grant you your MD and (in most cases) The School of Arts and Sciences or MIT will grant you the PhD.

That is generally how it is done at most schools and not just medical school. For example again at Harvard. (Mitt Romney has this combo) a JD/MBA. Harvard Law does not give you an MBA. They award you a JD, and Harvard Business awards you the MBA.
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Old 09-05-2013, 22:45   #127
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Although we have experienced considerable thread drift from the OP's original question, which my friend's views in part supported, I believe that we have had a meaning dialog.

I further content that although my friend chose not to be a physician, he is still making an important contribution to healthcare. One of his current initiatives is implementing international clinical protocols that efectively standardize away any variation in care, moving the practice of medicine from an art into a repeatable science.
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Old 09-05-2013, 22:58   #128
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My point exactly; the rest is quibbling.
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Old 09-05-2013, 23:02   #129
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Viewpoint is important; you may have found it challenging to be in med school. He did not.
Med school not hard, full of ****!!!

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius.

My brother in law, near 4.0 gpa, 38-39 mcat (!!!!), 99 percentile on exit exams, at mayo right now doing neurology residency says it's hard.

He told me the type of test he took (at least the ones near the end). I even took him to his in person test in Houston, where they grade you with patient/actors, and from his explanation, it definitely did not sound like raw memorization would have been enough to pass.

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Old 09-05-2013, 23:11   #130
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My point exactly; the rest is quibbling.
Negative.

You made claims. I factually disproved those claims. You dismiss it as quibbling.

Your friend does not have a PhD from Harvard Medical School. (you flat out said he does)

You say he never dropped out of Medical School but was accepted to an MD/PhD program and decided to do the PhD part. It doest work that way. You do two years of Medical School first. So, he must have made the choice to only do the PhD before he ever started Medical School....but you say he wanted to be a Doctor before he began his studies.

And this friend, said this
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"A close friend thought that he wanted to be a doctor - until he began his studies and found most doctors not to be that intelligent - more like savants with exceptional rote memorization skills."
So this friend of yours claims that the Doctors at Harvard, (among the smartest professions at arguably the most prestigious school in the world) are "not that intelligent"....which is, from a quantifiable level, a factually false statement. As a matter of fact, we are talking about a group of of people who are comparatively among the smartest people on the planet. As I said, there is no detail about your friend that can change the fact about the intelligence level of doctors/med student at Harvard.

Your friends statement is like a guy saying "i want to be a golfer" then playing half a hole of golf with Tiger Woods and then claiming "he isnt that good, he is just very well practiced, this isnt that hard at all" and then quit golf forever to become a golf course manager. To pick on the best...when you didnt become one, doesnt prove the point you think it does.

Listen, you are among one of my favorite posters here but you are just flat out wrong, factually wrong about a lot of things here and your story doesnt add up as you tell it. That is not quibbling.
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Old 09-05-2013, 23:30   #131
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Med school not hard, full of ****!!!

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius.

My brother in law, near 4.0 gpa, 38-39 mcat (!!!!), 99 percentile on exit exams, at mayo right now doing neurology residency says it's hard.

He told me the type of test he took (at least the ones near the end). I even took him to his in person test in Houston, where they grade you with patient/actors, and from his explanation, it definitely did not sound like raw memorization would have been enough to pass.
It's not. That raw memorization claim is idiotic.
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Old 09-05-2013, 23:42   #132
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This debate reminds me a little of the book Outliers where they talk about opportunity and practice as being the two drivers of success. I would add a third, interest.

Pegleg Morgan didn't get to where he was without all three.
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Old 09-06-2013, 03:42   #133
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Being able to defend yourself and your family. And that means being healthy, not depending on medications to live. I'm happy this does not apply to your family members, but it is a fact of life for a lot of people. Your skills and stockpiles are useless if you are not physically fit enough to defend them.
We all know when the famine comes, the skinny ones die first.

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Old 09-06-2013, 05:32   #134
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That is not what education is at all. That is not how it works in most places of higher learning.

To be an engineer or a scientist of any weight you need to understand concepts, not just be able to repeat them. Anyone in a STEM field knows this.

It is just as important in liberal arts and social science. You can teach someone to write but you cant make them a great poet by memorizing words...and yet education can give people tools to expand on their own talents.

BTW, you have confused a task (changing oil) with talent. (ability to perform a task and how well) It is a horrid example.
I understand that's not how it works for graduate programs or STEM. But for K-12, and the majority of bachelor degrees people go after, memorization and regurgitation is what the "education" involves.

Applying concepts in a lab environment or on a project, or creating artwork/poetry is obviously not necessarily memorization driven. I'm referring to how the grades in so many classes revolve around standardized exams, which require a large amount of memorization to be able to recall the answers.

The talent in my example is being able to solve problems with limited guidance. I agree changing oil is a poor example.

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Old 09-06-2013, 07:19   #135
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You are describing skill sets. Again, it doesn't really prove much of anything other than a person does or does not have a particular skill set.
That is what I was getting at - quite often the reason a person does not have a specific skill set is not because they aren't smart enough to do it, but because they have no interest in learning to do it. They would rather pay someone else to do it and do something they enjoy.
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Old 09-06-2013, 07:32   #136
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Knowledge≠Intelligence
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Old 09-06-2013, 09:15   #137
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In my experience education level does not equate to smart. Look how the mainstream media influences the sheeple who by and large are well educated. One example is how people are buying into this notion of bombing Syria because the media is telling them "It's the right thing to do". That is now the catch phrase of this bunch of KOOKS.

It's not education itself; it's what TYPE of education.

The elite aren't "educated"; they are indoctrinated, brainwashed. I have zero respect for the ivy leagues and other "elite" schools as they are little more than communist gulags and that's a fact.


It's kind of like saying, "why isn't this big mac making me healthy? It's food!" Well, yes it's food, but not terribly nutritious.
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Old 09-06-2013, 09:33   #138
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It's not education itself; it's what TYPE of education.

The elite aren't "educated"; they are indoctrinated, brainwashed. I have zero respect for the ivy leagues and other "elite" schools as they are little more than communist gulags and that's a fact.


It's kind of like saying, "why isn't this big mac making me healthy? It's food!" Well, yes it's food, but not terribly nutritious.
Here is a list of just current Republican US Senators who attended Ivy League schools.

Mike Crapo
John Hoeven
Rob Portman
Pat Toomey
Ted Cruz
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Old 09-06-2013, 09:34   #139
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It's not education itself; it's what TYPE of education.

The elite aren't "educated"; they are indoctrinated, brainwashed. I have zero respect for the ivy leagues and other "elite" schools as they are little more than communist gulags and that's a fact.


It's kind of like saying, "why isn't this big mac making me healthy? It's food!" Well, yes it's food, but not terribly nutritious.
Considering the entrance criterion (accepts top candidates who, in most cases earn their spot) and the results (graduates of said schools, on average are more successful) Your statements are from a comparative standpoint, quantifiably false.

To be blunt, your statements fall apart in the face of the facts that on average, one must be the best to get in and the results produced are, on average, among the best.

Harvard Business school is not turning out Communists. Nor are the various elite engineering schools, medical schools, dental schools, technology school.... What you will find is a liberal leaning in a lot of the liberal arts and social science fields. That is a long way from "communist gulag."

The last two presidents are both Harvard men, one a Republican and one a Liberal. As a Matter of fact, the last 4 Presidents were Ivy league men and it is still 50/50. Bush 1 and 2.....Republicans. Clinton and Obama, Democrats. Such finite data doesnt say much about people at large but it does prove that conservatives from such places can be just as successful as liberals. Ted Cruz is a Harvard grad.

Your Big Mac comment doesnt work either because again, the Ivys take in the best and produce among the best results. They are not "Big Macs"...they are among the best and most nutritious of meals.
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Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

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Old 09-06-2013, 09:46   #140
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I am a 4th year med student with a bachelor's and master's degree under my belt, and I will dispute your comment about our education system revolving around memorization. Yes, a lot of things do need to be memorized, but the simple fact of it is that nobody can memorize everything, and actually understanding a concept is much easier than simply memorizing a bunch of seemingly disjointed facts about the same concept. For example, take something relatively complex like the cardiac cycle. Yes, I can try to memorize what every heart murmur sounds like, whether it is stenosis or regurgitation, whether it happens in systole or diastole, whether it increases or decreases with inspiration/expiration or handgrip/valsalva/squatting, etc. But I'll be honest, that's probably way too much to memorize for most people. But let's say I understand how everything relates and why some murmurs happen when they do, or sound like they do. And let's say I understand what handgrip does to pressures inside the ventricles, or valsalva does to venous return. Now I can answer just about every question about murmur diagnoses with minimal rote memorization. Can I get by just on memorizing everything? Probably. But I am not going to be terribly successful on exams and in future practice if I do. If you are a successful medical student, this is your strategy. And it separates those who can barely pass their boards (or take a couple tries to do it), vs those who score 2+ standard deviations above the mean.

As far as changing your own oil, I too know plenty of doctors who don't know the first thing about their cars. And I know plenty who do, including myself. But you are judging those doctors according to your own personal metrics. Sure, you are good with cars, so that's the metric that you use. But that doesn't make somebody else less intelligent or less well-rounded than you. What about the orthopedic surgeon who starts his day at 6 AM and doesn't stop until 8 PM or later? Maybe he just doesn't have the time to deal with his own oil change? But do you really think that the guy who understands the biomechanics of fractures or how muscles pull on the proximal and distal fragment to cause the specific fracture pattern, and knows how to fix them so they heal properly, can't google how to change the oil in his car in about 5 mins? What about the family practice doc who can diagnose a cancer based on a series of non-specific symptoms?
I feel like Ben Afleck here. LOL


Ah boi is wickit-smahh! WOW!
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Old 09-06-2013, 10:15   #141
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I heart Rabbi's comments. I have learned a great deal from him, and I've learned to learn from him.

I hold a doctorate of pharmacology. I spent years researching and compounding medicines. My memorization skills are terrible (relatively). I had a girlfriend in school that would study three times less than me and make three times better grades. Her memorization skills were amazing (this made arguments in our relationship very difficult for me). That said, she was foolish and stupid. She had few logical skills, and no life skills. She drank herself to the point of vomiting every weekend and never learned better. She was very good at some logical things, and very bad at others... while I considered myself simply "decent" at many things. This seemed to be the norm in school. I was surrounded by a group of people whom I considered fools--that got better grades than me. To be fair, I did not know them intimately. Some were geniuses on many levels who surpassed my expectations of what the human mind is capable of. Most were not. I still try to figure out what type of intelligence this is. Maybe it was my field, maybe my perception. Regardless, I can't figure how a person capable of getting into a school admits less than 2% of qualified applicants, mostly based on grades, can harbor such illogical fools.
I don't think that one can overstate the role good memory has in being successful in the science disciplines. However, persistence, discipline, and practice are also important and can go far in ensuring success.
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Old 09-06-2013, 10:19   #142
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Discerent can't be taught. You have it or you don't. It can be improved or honed with learning. Wisdom can be aquired but is not as valuable without discernment.

A good teacher is wise.

A good doctor is discerning.
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Old 09-06-2013, 10:23   #143
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It's not education itself; it's what TYPE of education.

The elite aren't "educated"; they are indoctrinated, brainwashed. I have zero respect for the ivy leagues and other "elite" schools as they are little more than communist gulags and that's a fact.


It's kind of like saying, "why isn't this big mac making me healthy? It's food!" Well, yes it's food, but not terribly nutritious.
If you have kids or a close family member you care about with kids, senior year in hs,who could could get a full ride anywhere in the world, and have the talent and drive to succeed.... Where would you recommend they go instead?

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Old 09-06-2013, 11:43   #144
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Seems clear enough, the guy got a doctorate from Harvard Medical School - which they offer. It doesn't make any difference what building he had to go to to apply to graduate.
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Old 09-06-2013, 11:46   #145
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It's not education itself; it's what TYPE of education.

The elite aren't "educated"; they are indoctrinated, brainwashed. I have zero respect for the ivy leagues and other "elite" schools as they are little more than communist gulags and that's a fact.


It's kind of like saying, "why isn't this big mac making me healthy? It's food!" Well, yes it's food, but not terribly nutritious.
OK, we all get carried away from time to time. But that's borderline nuts.
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Old 09-06-2013, 11:52   #146
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Because most College Professors are pretty dumb and Liberal. I taught part time for 5 years and it was eye opening! I pushed students to take business courses and work for themselves. Little did I know I would be starting my own business years later. That was a good thing!
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Old 09-06-2013, 13:13   #147
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I have a masters in biochemistry. It was 2 years of classes + research. If I wanted a PhD, it would have been about another 2 years of mainly research. Believe me, medical school is more challenging, stressful, and time consuming.
From someone who actually knows - the classes are the easy part:

http://mudphudadventures.blogspot.co...smackdown.html
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Old 09-06-2013, 13:46   #148
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I am a 4th year med student with a bachelor's and master's degree under my belt, and I will dispute your comment about our education system revolving around memorization. Yes, a lot of things do need to be memorized, but the simple fact of it is that nobody can memorize everything, and actually understanding a concept is much easier than simply memorizing a bunch of seemingly disjointed facts about the same concept. For example, take something relatively complex like the cardiac cycle. Yes, I can try to memorize what every heart murmur sounds like, whether it is stenosis or regurgitation, whether it happens in systole or diastole, whether it increases or decreases with inspiration/expiration or handgrip/valsalva/squatting, etc. But I'll be honest, that's probably way too much to memorize for most people. But let's say I understand how everything relates and why some murmurs happen when they do, or sound like they do. And let's say I understand what handgrip does to pressures inside the ventricles, or valsalva does to venous return. Now I can answer just about every question about murmur diagnoses with minimal rote memorization. Can I get by just on memorizing everything? Probably. But I am not going to be terribly successful on exams and in future practice if I do. If you are a successful medical student, this is your strategy. And it separates those who can barely pass their boards (or take a couple tries to do it), vs those who score 2+ standard deviations above the mean.

As far as changing your own oil, I too know plenty of doctors who don't know the first thing about their cars. And I know plenty who do, including myself. But you are judging those doctors according to your own personal metrics. Sure, you are good with cars, so that's the metric that you use. But that doesn't make somebody else less intelligent or less well-rounded than you. What about the orthopedic surgeon who starts his day at 6 AM and doesn't stop until 8 PM or later? Maybe he just doesn't have the time to deal with his own oil change? But do you really think that the guy who understands the biomechanics of fractures or how muscles pull on the proximal and distal fragment to cause the specific fracture pattern, and knows how to fix them so they heal properly, can't google how to change the oil in his car in about 5 mins? What about the family practice doc who can diagnose a cancer based on a series of non-specific symptoms?
1. My son is an MS 1 at an excellent medical school equally attuned to the clinical and research. Several of his fellow MS 1s are Ph.D biochemical guys who want the clinical education to dive full into research. They take biochem in the morning and anatomy lab in the afternoon. One of the four in his anatomy group - the four share a table and a cadaver - is one of the bio-chem Ph.D holders. This guy says MS-1 biochem is hard because the pace is so fast. My son says it is difficult because there is a mountain of material and the test questions are derived from the material not directly about the material. That's not memorization.

2. The Ph.D crowd is great at analyzing data and making graphs and conducting studies. The MD has to take some of that and save the non compliant IV drug user. The deal is both have thier place.
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Old 09-06-2013, 13:50   #149
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Seems clear enough, the guy got a doctorate from Harvard Medical School - which they offer. It doesn't make any difference what building he had to go to to apply to graduate.
That is not how it works at all. Harvard even makes it clear. You are (and he) are demonstrably wrong.

If you do an MD/PhD program and the MD is from Harvard and the PhD is from MIT.....did Harvard Grant you a PhD? Nope. You wont have a lot of luck getting your transcript unless you know where you earned it. It is an important detail.

You also dont know how the various schools at Harvard (and many universities) work.

Harvard Medical School does not grant PhD's. To make such a claim is similar to saying "Army SEAL" or how the media calls every gun "an assault rifle." Sure, most people dont know, most people dont care, and what is worse, is most people can be persuaded by an emotional argument to disregard the facts. However, the facts are still the facts, no matter how much someone believes otherwise.
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I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon

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Old 09-06-2013, 13:50   #150
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knowledge does not equal wisdom.
No but its a pretty fundamental building block
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