GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-05-2013, 17:20   #76
Rabbi
Lifetime Membership
The Bombdiggity
 
Rabbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San AntonioTexas
Posts: 29,873


Quote:
Originally Posted by 2bgop View Post
This reminds me of the threads where the really smart and successful people will all fail miserably when SHTF.
I enjoy those as well. Victory is victory and an alpha is an alpha. If you cant win the easy game, chances are you are not going to win the hard game.
__________________
In the world to come, each of us will be called to account for all the good things G-d put on earth which we refused to enjoy. ~ The Babylonian Talmud

Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
Rabbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 17:23   #77
.264 magnum
CLM Number 121
Charter Lifetime Member
 
.264 magnum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 16,637
Quote:
Originally Posted by aplcr0331 View Post
From: http://www.census.gov/hhes/socdemo/e...12/tables.html

High school graduate - 87.65%
Some college - 57.28%
Associate's and/or Bachelor's degree - 40.58%
Bachelor's degree - 30.94%
Master's degree - 8.05%
Doctorate or professional degree - 3.07%
MDs are about .024%. Or 240 per 100,000 citizens.
__________________
The Gonzales Flag - "Come and Take It!"
.264 magnum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 17:23   #78
CAcop
Senior Member
 
CAcop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: California
Posts: 21,245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
If he knows more things than you, and you call him out for something he doesnt know.....



And without any doubt, the very nature of the medium means the average IQ on GT will be to the right of a normal distribution.
And what do they know? What are they capable of?
__________________
I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
CAcop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 17:24   #79
professorpinki
Bumbling idjit
 
professorpinki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,037
"Never let schooling get in the way of your education." - Mark Twain
And to loosely quote Michel de Montaigne, "I'd rather have a tutor who has a well-formed head than a well-filled head."

These two quotes come to mind as paradigms which we have let fall by the wayside. With the advent of the public education system, we've imposed artificial standards while some have manipulated themselves into position where they choose and influence the education process, thinking that such a process can be figured out and distributed on such a huge level as a state, with millions of residents. How can a state's education board determine what is the best thing to teach an individual at a particular time? It can't. Only the individual teacher can do that, the teacher who is underpaid and is measured based upon artificial standards, who has up to 40 students per class too many in my own personal experience, and so on ad nauseum.

Last edited by professorpinki; 09-05-2013 at 17:27..
professorpinki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 17:25   #80
Rabbi
Lifetime Membership
The Bombdiggity
 
Rabbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San AntonioTexas
Posts: 29,873


Quote:
Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
And what do they know? What are they capable of?
You have missed my point and now you are lumping knowledge and skill sets together in order to...well, I don't know what tangent you are on.
__________________
In the world to come, each of us will be called to account for all the good things G-d put on earth which we refused to enjoy. ~ The Babylonian Talmud

Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
Rabbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 17:27   #81
CAcop
Senior Member
 
CAcop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: California
Posts: 21,245
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2bgop View Post
This reminds me of the threads where the really smart and successful people will all fail miserably when SHTF.
Successful at what?

And what is SHTF?
__________________
I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
CAcop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 17:36   #82
2bgop
Senior Member
 
2bgop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: In the SEC
Posts: 5,679
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
Successful at what?

And what is SHTF?
Crap Hits the Fan
2bgop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 17:41   #83
paynter2
It ain't over
 
paynter2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: upper mid-west
Posts: 8,701


I agree that most highly educated people are very intelligent. As posted earlier - it's just hard to gain access to higher and higher education unless you can perform at higher and higher levels.

But, there are some very, very intelligent people with very little education. I grew up in a small village with small family farms surrounding it. All of the other towns in my area were similar. Each one of them had 'blacksmith' and most of those people were born engineers. Some were genuine geniuses.

One guy, a few years younger than me, built stuff and even got a few patents. Maybe you remember those Harvistor silos from the 70-80s. As bigger farms moved on to more modern tech, this guy came up with a way to dismantle the silo so it could be moved to a new (generally smaller farm) location. I guess it was a big deal because he became very wealthy.

This area was a very big cheese producing area. The same guy came up with some device involved with cheese production. Another patent - he moved this company to AZ I believe.

He started out of high school with a welder and a torch - doing fix-it work. This guys is intelligent - but not formally educated. There are many like him.

My point is that you don't have to be educated to be intelligent. But, you almost have to be intelligent to be highly educated. Does that make sense?
__________________
"Power always has to be kept in check; power exercised in secret, especially under the cloak of national security, is doubly dangerous." ...William Proxmire, US senator, reformer (1915-2005)
paynter2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 17:44   #84
Revvv
Senior Member
 
Revvv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,088
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoadToadBoss View Post
knowledge does not equal wisdom.
Not at all.

Sent from my DROIDX using Ohub Campfire mobile app
Revvv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 17:49   #85
Detectorist
Senior Member
 
Detectorist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Robertsville, MO
Posts: 7,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by paynter2 View Post
I agree that most highly educated people are very intelligent. As posted earlier - it's just hard to gain access to higher and higher education unless you can perform at higher and higher levels.

But, there are some very, very intelligent people with very little education. I grew up in a small village with small family farms surrounding it. All of the other towns in my area were similar. Each one of them had 'blacksmith' and most of those people were born engineers. Some were genuine geniuses.

One guy, a few years younger than me, built stuff and even got a few patents. Maybe you remember those Harvistor silos from the 70-80s. As bigger farms moved on to more modern tech, this guy came up with a way to dismantle the silo so it could be moved to a new (generally smaller farm) location. I guess it was a big deal because he became very wealthy.

This area was a very big cheese producing area. The same guy came up with some device involved with cheese production. Another patent - he moved this company to AZ I believe.

He started out of high school with a welder and a torch - doing fix-it work. This guys is intelligent - but not formally educated. There are many like him.

My point is that you don't have to be educated to be intelligent. But, you almost have to be intelligent to be highly educated. Does that make sense?
I think inventing stuff is more a function of creativity than 'intelligence'.
__________________
NASM-Certified Personal Trainer

The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place. George Bernard Shaw
Detectorist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 17:59   #86
Narkcop
Senior Member
 
Narkcop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 2,679
Syria

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narkcop View Post
In my experience education level does not equate to smart. Look how the mainstream media influences the sheeple who by and large are well educated. One example is how people are buying into this notion of bombing Syria because the media is telling them "It's the right thing to do". That is now the catch phrase of this bunch of KOOKS.
If people aren't buying into bombing Syria, why did the Senate approve military action and the House seems in step to follow?
Narkcop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 18:04   #87
2bgop
Senior Member
 
2bgop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: In the SEC
Posts: 5,679
Quote:
Originally Posted by Narkcop View Post
If people aren't buying into bombing Syria, why did the Senate approve military action and the House seems in step to follow?
The Senate hasn't approved the resolution yet.
2bgop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 18:14   #88
John Galt
Anti-Federalist
 
John Galt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Indy
Posts: 1,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
Steven Hawking does not turn a very good 100 meter dash either.
Maybe not, but this should improve his times somewhat.

http://www.allegromedical.com/wheelc...r-p557073.html
__________________
"The Constitution has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it."-Lysander Spooner

The only person that makes slavery possible... is the slave.
John Galt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 18:29   #89
paynter2
It ain't over
 
paynter2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: upper mid-west
Posts: 8,701


Quote:
Originally Posted by Detectorist View Post
I think inventing stuff is more a function of creativity than 'intelligence'.
Maybe - but in my experience, the more intelligent people are more creative. At least in engineering type pursuits. Art may be a different forum.

The guys I'm talking about not only come up with the idea, but they can fabricate the prototype. Think of bending, welding, 3/4 inch steel plate to make a snowplow mount for a tractor. Beautiful work - no cuts to make the 'U' bend around the nose of the tractor. No extra holes drilled to cover mistakes. The guys I'm talking about would get the respect of any engineer I know. They might not be able to design a bridge, but some bridge engineers can't do that either.

These guys would score very high on IQ tests in high school. They just never continue in education.
__________________
"Power always has to be kept in check; power exercised in secret, especially under the cloak of national security, is doubly dangerous." ...William Proxmire, US senator, reformer (1915-2005)

Last edited by paynter2; 09-05-2013 at 18:38..
paynter2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 18:33   #90
CAcop
Senior Member
 
CAcop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: California
Posts: 21,245
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2bgop View Post
Crap Hits the Fan
I meant the specific situation. End of civilization where you are walking around like Mad Max? Well, you better have done more than read a book about survival. Power out for a few days due to localized disaster or weather? I think most people can get by.

That's why I was asking for definitions of successful and of SHTF.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Ohub Campfire mobile app
__________________
I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
CAcop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 18:46   #91
GVFlyer
Senior Member
 
GVFlyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Somewhere in the air.
Posts: 6,606
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
Your friends conclusions about doctors are empirically wrong.
His conclusions are empirically correct in so far as that they are based on his observations and experience. For him, they are verifiable in that he is cognitively superior to the majority of physicians, is academically accomplished with degrees from MIT, Harvard and Oxford (the later being the result of an international fellowship) and has found a fit with people who are his intellectual equals. Equally important, in his current position, his output has a more global impact than if he were a doctor and thus benefits more people.
__________________
The Truth Only Hurts If It Should.

http://www.specialops.org/
GVFlyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 19:04   #92
.264 magnum
CLM Number 121
Charter Lifetime Member
 
.264 magnum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 16,637
Quote:
Originally Posted by GVFlyer View Post
His conclusions are empirically correct in so far as that they are based on his observations and experience. For him, they are verifiable in that he is cognitively superior to the majority of physicians, is academically accomplished with degrees from MIT, Harvard and Oxford (the later being the result of an international fellowship) and has found a fit with people who are his intellectual equals. Equally important, in his current position, his output has a more global impact than if he were a doctor and thus benefits more people.
That's all well and good as he's a 5n kind of intellect or better. That still does not mean that docs are glorified school children who regurgitate easily learned facts.
__________________
The Gonzales Flag - "Come and Take It!"
.264 magnum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 19:09   #93
GVFlyer
Senior Member
 
GVFlyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Somewhere in the air.
Posts: 6,606
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaSteve View Post
Intelligence is innate, learned. The education system is about money. Very simple
Do you mean to say that "Intelligence is innate, not learned"?

Innate means a quality that is possessed at birth, something that is inherent, produced by the brain and not learned.
__________________
The Truth Only Hurts If It Should.

http://www.specialops.org/
GVFlyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 19:11   #94
GVFlyer
Senior Member
 
GVFlyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Somewhere in the air.
Posts: 6,606
Quote:
Originally Posted by .264 magnum View Post
That's all well and good as he's a 5n kind of intellect or better. That still does not mean that docs are glorified school children who regurgitate easily learned facts.
Viewpoint is important; you may have found it challenging to be in med school. He did not.
__________________
The Truth Only Hurts If It Should.

http://www.specialops.org/
GVFlyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 19:20   #95
sputnik767
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 8,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fear Night View Post
Because our education system revolves around memorization and regurgitating what you memorized on a test. Memorization capability does not equate to intelligence.

It's like the age old question, who is more intelligent, a doctor or an engineer?

I know doctors that wouldn't even know where to begin to change the oil on their car. Even if the engineer didn't know how to do it, they could figure it out.
I am a 4th year med student with a bachelor's and master's degree under my belt, and I will dispute your comment about our education system revolving around memorization. Yes, a lot of things do need to be memorized, but the simple fact of it is that nobody can memorize everything, and actually understanding a concept is much easier than simply memorizing a bunch of seemingly disjointed facts about the same concept. For example, take something relatively complex like the cardiac cycle. Yes, I can try to memorize what every heart murmur sounds like, whether it is stenosis or regurgitation, whether it happens in systole or diastole, whether it increases or decreases with inspiration/expiration or handgrip/valsalva/squatting, etc. But I'll be honest, that's probably way too much to memorize for most people. But let's say I understand how everything relates and why some murmurs happen when they do, or sound like they do. And let's say I understand what handgrip does to pressures inside the ventricles, or valsalva does to venous return. Now I can answer just about every question about murmur diagnoses with minimal rote memorization. Can I get by just on memorizing everything? Probably. But I am not going to be terribly successful on exams and in future practice if I do. If you are a successful medical student, this is your strategy. And it separates those who can barely pass their boards (or take a couple tries to do it), vs those who score 2+ standard deviations above the mean.

As far as changing your own oil, I too know plenty of doctors who don't know the first thing about their cars. And I know plenty who do, including myself. But you are judging those doctors according to your own personal metrics. Sure, you are good with cars, so that's the metric that you use. But that doesn't make somebody else less intelligent or less well-rounded than you. What about the orthopedic surgeon who starts his day at 6 AM and doesn't stop until 8 PM or later? Maybe he just doesn't have the time to deal with his own oil change? But do you really think that the guy who understands the biomechanics of fractures or how muscles pull on the proximal and distal fragment to cause the specific fracture pattern, and knows how to fix them so they heal properly, can't google how to change the oil in his car in about 5 mins? What about the family practice doc who can diagnose a cancer based on a series of non-specific symptoms?
sputnik767 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 19:20   #96
.264 magnum
CLM Number 121
Charter Lifetime Member
 
.264 magnum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 16,637
Quote:
Originally Posted by GVFlyer View Post
Viewpoint is important; you may have found it challenging to be in med school. He did not.
Are you really telling me that this guy entered medical school and dropped out because it was too easy? You need to keep in mind there are more, a lot more, Ph.D holders than MDs in the US.

And if he really did that he is an idiot because every medical school in the country lets inbound MS1 students know exactly what medical school is like.


ETA - the more I think about the more absurd I it seems. As your friend is a maxi-genius why wasn't he smart enough to analyze the academic metrics of inbound students majors, GPA, MCAT all of that stuff is more or less 100% public.
__________________
The Gonzales Flag - "Come and Take It!"

Last edited by .264 magnum; 09-05-2013 at 19:24..
.264 magnum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 19:37   #97
sputnik767
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 8,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by GVFlyer View Post
That depends on the discipline. You are completely right in some areas of study. A close friend thought that he wanted to be a doctor - until he began his studies and found most doctors not to be that intelligent - more like savants with exceptional rote memorization skills.

He gained his Ph.D and now develops high level medical business strategies for a Fortune 50 Company. Such a job requires an agile brain and provides him the opportunity to function in an intellectually challenging area while associating with equally smart guys.

The levels of learning are Rote, Understanding, Application and Correlation. Those functioning at the Correlation level have certainly benefited from their education.
There are very, very few people who could rely solely or primarily on their memorization skills to get through med school and residency. Your friend's conclusions are wrong. That is not to say that memorization is not important, and I have to do a lot of memorizing. I suspect there are other reasons why your friend quit med school.
sputnik767 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 19:41   #98
GVFlyer
Senior Member
 
GVFlyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Somewhere in the air.
Posts: 6,606
Quote:
Originally Posted by sputnik767 View Post
There are very, very few people who could rely solely or primarily on their memorization skills to get through med school and residency. Your friend's conclusions are wrong. That is not to say that memorization is not important, and I have to do a lot of memorizing. I suspect there are other reasons why your friend quit med school.
I'm sure that there were collateral reasons, but the main reason was that he went from a MD/Ph.D program to a Ph.D program at HMS was that he was bored and found research to be more engaging.
__________________
The Truth Only Hurts If It Should.

http://www.specialops.org/

Last edited by GVFlyer; 09-05-2013 at 19:43..
GVFlyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 19:42   #99
sputnik767
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 8,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by GVFlyer View Post
Viewpoint is important; you may have found it challenging to be in med school. He did not.
Garbage. How long was he involved before dropping out? Most people who dropped out of my class, did so in the first couple of weeks. You can't possibly believe that he didn't find it challenging enough. It may not have been what he expected or he quickly realized that it is not for him, but I promise you that med school being too easy was not the reason.

I have a masters in biochemistry. It was 2 years of classes + research. If I wanted a PhD, it would have been about another 2 years of mainly research. Believe me, medical school is more challenging, stressful, and time consuming.

Last edited by sputnik767; 09-05-2013 at 19:45..
sputnik767 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 19:54   #100
GVFlyer
Senior Member
 
GVFlyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Somewhere in the air.
Posts: 6,606
Quote:
Originally Posted by .264 magnum View Post
Are you really telling me that this guy entered medical school and dropped out because it was too easy? You need to keep in mind there are more, a lot more, Ph.D holders than MDs in the US.
At no point did I suggest that he dropped out of medical school. He was in a MD/Ph.D program at Harvard Medical School and elected to continue in a doctorate program alone at HMS that better suited him.

In so doing he Masloved out while not suffering monetarily for his decision.
__________________
The Truth Only Hurts If It Should.

http://www.specialops.org/
GVFlyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:45.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 704
209 Members
495 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42