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Old 09-05-2013, 15:39   #51
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How smart is it to post a premise that is completely in left field?

Most in the US oppose getting involved in Syria.
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Old 09-05-2013, 16:01   #52
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I also disagree with the idea.

From a statistical standpoint, there isn't a feeling in the world that can overcome the fact that on average, better educated people are not only better educated (which is what the term better educated means)but also smarter. It pretty much cant work any other way. There comes a point on the educational ladder that you have to be smarter and smarter to keep going. What you end up with is simply something that is statistically inevitable. Better educated people, on average are smarter than a random sample of non educated people.

The other issue here is, this is really no different than classism. To call out the accomplished because of your observations of a few or your belief that in spite of your deficiency you are smarter is ironic....even if true in your particular case.

Someone in this country is the dumbest brain surgeon....but that doesn't make him dumb and if you fill a room full of ditch diggers you may very well find one that is smarter than the average brain surgeon....but on average, a given sample of brain surgeons is going to be much smarter than a given sample of ditch diggers.

To be fair, education has been very diluted in this county. Statistically speaking, a bachelors holder is still going to be smarter than a non bachelors holder (and again, the bachelors holder is going to be, if nothing else, better educated)...but...the gap is closing a bit. However, as you get into higher levels of education, the gap is still pretty discernible.
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Old 09-05-2013, 16:06   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigpoppie50 View Post
I once had interest in a young lady that was a counselor at the school that we both worked. She supposedly had a masters degree in something but anyway she asked me did I have a masters and I told her no I do not. She thought somehow having a masters made her a step above me and at that time I had a half million sitting in the bank collecting interest. Everything she did she had to pray about and everything was church church church. I kick her arse to the curb and never looked back. These are some of the people that are in the school system counseling children/students.
So her achievement that she held over you was a flaw she had...but your achievement that you held over her was your justification for actually being better than her?

You cant play it both ways.
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Old 09-05-2013, 16:08   #54
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Originally Posted by Bruce M View Post
I also think it just because someone has come to a different conclusion about a political issue does not mean he is not intelligent or not educated.
This. Radical and crazy ideas have produced the most powerful and advanced civilization the world has ever known and many of us would have disagreed with at least some of them every step of the way.
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Old 09-05-2013, 16:11   #55
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I work in a college town. You would be amazed at what people with advanced degrees do. I think it has to do with the fact they become very educated in one area and think that translates to other areas just as easily without having to put in the work.

My first exposure to it was in college when a physics grad student fell flat on his face trying to catch a bus. Good running shoes. Flat, level ground. Did not know to make sure he picks up his feet when running fast.
A man trips (or tells a joke about tripping, such as "working on a PhD in Physics and I aint smart enough to run in a straight line...." )and this proves a grand point about how many educated people are not smart?
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Old 09-05-2013, 16:13   #56
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Originally Posted by DeltaSteve View Post
Intelligence is innate, learned. The education system is about money. Very simple
Just about money?

So how about all those doctors and engineers who cure disease and build space craft?

The education system hones talent....and there is a price for this.
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I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
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Old 09-05-2013, 16:19   #57
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I think there is a much more simple explanation today.

One used to have to be intelligent, to a certain amount, to get an education. Today we have decided that was unfair to the less intelligent so education is available to everyone and since failure for lack of intelligence is also unfair, one has to look a lot harder in the haystack to find the needle of "intelligent and educated" amidst the hay and chaff.
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Old 09-05-2013, 16:22   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fear Night View Post
Because our education system revolves around memorization and regurgitating what you memorized on a test. Memorization capability does not equate to intelligence.

It's like the age old question, who is more intelligent, a doctor or an engineer?

I know doctors that wouldn't even know where to begin to change the oil on their car. Even if the engineer didn't know how to do it, they could figure it out.
That is not what education is at all. That is not how it works in most places of higher learning.

To be an engineer or a scientist of any weight you need to understand concepts, not just be able to repeat them. Anyone in a STEM field knows this.

It is just as important in liberal arts and social science. You can teach someone to write but you cant make them a great poet by memorizing words...and yet education can give people tools to expand on their own talents.

BTW, you have confused a task (changing oil) with talent. (ability to perform a task and how well) It is a horrid example.
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Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
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Old 09-05-2013, 16:28   #59
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Originally Posted by Dennis in MA View Post
Yeah. I deal with you guys all the time. "Just give me the manual and I can do it." An engineer with a manual and no experience can't see the real problems they are about to walk into. LOL

The good news with Engineers is: Once you show them the first landmine that isn't even hinted at in the manual, they back right off and just let you do your thing.

Maybe Massachusetts engineers .




Off-topic: how did we ever adopt the word "manual" for describing a document intended to describe useage and application of some device or system?
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Old 09-05-2013, 16:28   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fear Night View Post
That's completely not the point. The point is, with any problem thrown at them, the intelligent person should be able to work to solve the problem on their own, with little to no training involved. Changing oil is just a very simple example of thousands that could be used.

Yes, with training even a chimp or the dumbest in our society could do most tasks, but that does not make them an intelligent problem solver.
If I told you in a language you don't understand to perform a task on a system you knew nothing about. You wouldn't even know you were supposed to try and figure something out. Your example is horrid.

If I tell someone to change the oil on the car and they cant, the only thing that proves is they don't know how to change the oil on a car. Every other conclusion drawn from that situation is erroneous.
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Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon

Last edited by Rabbi; 09-05-2013 at 16:44..
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Old 09-05-2013, 16:31   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Tiger View Post
Intelligence is the limit on how much you can be taught. Education is teaching you the stuff.

Think of it like this - intelligence is the size of the glass, and with education you fill the glass.

However, I believe there are several different types of intelligence. There are probably doctors who could describe every aspect of the human heart, and diagnose and (within current technology) cure any disease or condition affecting it. However, they probably could not change their own oil or wire a house. Likewise, there are probably very brilliant automotive engineers out there that do not change their own oil or even work on their own car. My own brother-in-law is a controls electrician, but doesn't like to mess with house wiring.

But that begs the question - is it because they cannot figure it out, or is it because they are wealthy enough to pay someone else to do it, too busy to have time to do it, and don't have any interest in doing it themselves? Mechanical things (for the doctor example) just don't interest everybody. And perhaps the engineer just doesn't want to do it.

There are a few things I pay to have done that I could do myself, just because I don't want to do it.
You are describing skill sets. Again, it doesn't really prove much of anything other than a person does or does not have a particular skill set.
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Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
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Old 09-05-2013, 16:31   #62
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We don't teach our children how to learn we teach them what to learn.
this is the problem of public schools, which the majority of the voting public attended.
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Old 09-05-2013, 16:34   #63
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Quote:
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That depends on the discipline. You are completely right in some areas of study. A close friend thought that he wanted to be a doctor - until he began his studies and found most doctors not to be that intelligent - more like savants with exceptional rote memorization skills.

He gained his Ph.D and now develops high level medical business strategies for a Fortune 50 Company. Such a job requires an agile brain and provides him the opportunity to function in an intellectually challenging area while associating with equally smart guys.

The levels of learning are Rote, Understanding, Application and Correlation. Those functioning at the Correlation level have certainly benefited from their education.
Your friends conclusions about doctors are empirically wrong.
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Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
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Old 09-05-2013, 16:37   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obi-Wan Kenobi View Post
Curiosity makes people smart.
No it doesn't. Granted most smart people are curious but not all curious people are smart.
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Old 09-05-2013, 16:58   #65
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Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
A man trips (or tells a joke about tripping, such as "working on a PhD in Physics and I aint smart enough to run in a straight line...." )and this proves a grand point about how many educated people are not smart?
He didn't know enough to pick up his feet.

Or I could go with the guy who gave an ex-con his tools and several hundred dollars to fix his car when he walked up to him offering to fix a MBZ for a screaming price. For some reason "Old Red" needed to take the tools and cash home before finishing the car. We are talking about a clearly shady guy. This was not a trick question.

The engineering professor let him walk off with tools and cash with no idea where he lived or how to get ahold of him.

Sorry if I burst your bubble. "Smart" people can be "stupid."

The thing to remember is if you are a "smart guy" is to remember you don't know everything.
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Old 09-05-2013, 17:03   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
He didn't know enough to pick up his feet.
And how can you possible know that?

Quote:
Or I could go with the guy who gave an ex-con his tools and several hundred dollars to fix his car when he walked up to him offering to fix a MBZ for a screaming price. For some reason "Old Red" needed to take the tools and cash home before finishing the car. We are talking about a clearly shady guy. This was not a trick question.

The engineering professor let him walk off with tools and cash with no idea where he lived or how to get ahold of him.

Sorry if I burst your bubble. "Smart" people can be "stupid."

The thing to remember is if you are a "smart guy" is to remember you don't know everything.
This is what is known as an anecdote. It doesn't prove what you are trying to prove. It simply illustrates one data point viewed through the lens of how you think it happened. You also moderate your initial claim here....a lot. You have gone from an insane and broad statement (the title of this thread, ") to a relative truth that being smart is not about knowing everything. There is no conceivable way you have "burst" my bubble any more than if you had said fire is hot.

BTW, calling out a smart guy for what he doesn't know might mean you win the battle but if he is the smarter guy, he wins the war. If the game is knowledge, how else could it possibly work?
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I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon

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Old 09-05-2013, 17:05   #67
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Originally Posted by Fear Night View Post
That's completely not the point. The point is, with any problem thrown at them, the intelligent person should be able to work to solve the problem on their own, with little to no training involved. Changing oil is just a very simple example of thousands that could be used.

Yes, with training even a chimp or the dumbest in our society could do most tasks, but that does not make them an intelligent problem solver.
OK staying with your example I'm guessing most any doc who wanted to - remember they take multiple physics and math courses as undergrads - could cypher through an oil change in a few minutes.
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Old 09-05-2013, 17:06   #68
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Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
He didn't know enough to pick up his feet.

Or I could go with the guy who gave an ex-con his tools and several hundred dollars to fix his car when he walked up to him offering to fix a MBZ for a screaming price. For some reason "Old Red" needed to take the tools and cash home before finishing the car. We are talking about a clearly shady guy. This was not a trick question.

The engineering professor let him walk off with tools and cash with no idea where he lived or how to get ahold of him.

Sorry if I burst your bubble. "Smart" people can be "stupid."

The thing to remember is if you are a "smart guy" is to remember you don't know everything.
You can't possibly believe that is true. A PhD student didn't know how to walk

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Old 09-05-2013, 17:09   #69
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You can't possibly believe that is true. A PhD student didn't know how to walk
Not only that but it is beyond ridiculous to bring up motor skills when we are on the topic of intellect.

Steven Hawking does not turn a very good 100 meter dash either.
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Old 09-05-2013, 17:11   #70
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You can't possibly believe that is true. A PhD student didn't know how to walk
He was running. I watched him. I knew the guy. Very brilliant at what he preferred. Physics. Everything else not so much.
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Old 09-05-2013, 17:13   #71
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Not only that but it is beyond ridiculous to bring up motor skills when we are on the topic of intellect.

Steven Hawking does not turn a very good 100 meter dash either.
This reminds me of the threads where the really smart and successful people will all fail miserably when SHTF.
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Old 09-05-2013, 17:14   #72
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BTW, calling out a smart guy for what he doesn't know might mean you win the battle but if he is the smarter guy, he wins the war. If the game is knowledge, how else could it possibly work?
What war? Does he know everything?

If you think about this collection of people on GT, where do they fall on the curve of IQ?
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I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
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Old 09-05-2013, 17:14   #73
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He was running. I watched him. I knew the guy. Very brilliant at what he preferred. Physics. Everything else not so much.
So he was running at some point, then forgot mid-process how to run?

Sounds like me a lot like a person who was running to catch a bus and fell in the process.

Last edited by 2bgop; 09-05-2013 at 17:20..
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Old 09-05-2013, 17:16   #74
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He was running. I watched him. I knew the guy. Very brilliant at what he preferred. Physics. Everything else not so much.
You are making a very specific claim. Your observations do not support your claim. You cant possibly know if your interpretation of a one time event gives rise to your extrapolation being correct.

BTW, you cant possible know that he was only good at Physics and not anything else.

...and again, you are bringing motor skills into a conversation about intellect. That is ridiculous.
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Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
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Old 09-05-2013, 17:17   #75
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What war? Does he know everything?

If you think about this collection of people on GT, where do they fall on the curve of IQ?
If he knows more things than you, and you call him out for something he doesnt know.....



And without any doubt, the very nature of the medium means the average IQ on GT will be to the right of a normal distribution.
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In the world to come, each of us will be called to account for all the good things G-d put on earth which we refused to enjoy. ~ The Babylonian Talmud

Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon

Last edited by Rabbi; 09-05-2013 at 17:21..
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