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Old 09-07-2013, 06:53   #141
donovan655
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Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
What is your experience in calling the police in an emergency and having them respond? Have they always arrived with all the knowledge you thought they should have had?

You might be surprised at how weird even the "good guy" can act at a scene. That is one of the reasons for extreme caution.

It never works as well as the perfect scripts on TV.



(none of this is to imply that the official, who is the topic of the thread, isn't a jerk)
What is your suggestion?
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Old 09-07-2013, 06:59   #142
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Forget about whether dispatch passes complete information to responding officers or not. Let's assume they give every detail they've received.

But you're still assuming the dispatcher will know who the good guy is. I'm willing to bet the most common call will be coming from a bystander, someone that probably didn't even see what happened, but the call will be something like:

"We need the police out here! There are two guys, they were fighting, but now one is laying in the street, the other one is pointing a gun at him. The guy with a gun is wearing....."

Based on that, what do you think the first officer on site should assume? "Well, the guy with gun is PROBABLY a good guy, CCW holder, so I'll just stroll up and ask how his night's going......"
Your scenario only leaves the assumption that the person holding the gun is a bad guy. So the responding officer should do what then? mag-dump and call it a night?

Then to remove the risk of this situation happening--ever--then we are what, not supposed to carry?

Sounds like that is the logical conclusion...
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Old 09-07-2013, 07:01   #143
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Originally Posted by donovan655 View Post
Your scenario only leaves the assumption that the person holding the gun is a bad guy. So the responding officer should do what then? mag-dump and call it a night?

Then to remove the risk of this situation happening--ever--then we are what, not supposed to carry?

Sounds like that is the logical conclusion...
What he means is good guy, bad guy or indifferent we need to be cautious.

Which means you'll probably get a .40 pointed at you..


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Old 09-07-2013, 07:04   #144
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What a tool
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Old 09-07-2013, 07:14   #145
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What he means is good guy, bad guy or indifferent we need to be cautious.

Which means you'll probably get a .40 pointed at you..


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Pointing...acceptable.
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Old 09-07-2013, 07:53   #146
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The Police Superintendent is an appointed position by the Mayor of Chicago.

What do you really expect Gary "Francis" McCarthy to say about the 2nd Ammendment and those who would excercise those rights?

https://portal.chicagopolice.org/por...#39;s%20Office
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Old 09-07-2013, 08:16   #147
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Originally Posted by donovan655 View Post
What is your suggestion?
Get training.

Ayoob would be a good choice.
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Old 09-07-2013, 08:28   #148
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Originally Posted by donovan655 View Post
Your scenario only leaves the assumption that the person holding the gun is a bad guy. So the responding officer should do what then? mag-dump and call it a night?

Then to remove the risk of this situation happening--ever--then we are what, not supposed to carry?

Sounds like that is the logical conclusion...
Actually, you completely miss the point (though I think that's intentional).

What I posted doesn't tell you at all whether the guy with the gun is a good guy or a bad guy. And that's likely what the police are going to have to work with when the arrive on a scene.

If you see two guys, one on the ground, one standing over him with a gun, and you don't know who's who, you would never, ever take for granted that the guy with the gun is a good guy. That's a good way to get someone killed. You treat everyone like a bad guy until you get it sorted out. That might mean cuffs, that might mean being planted face-first on the ground.

And that pisses off a lot of people, because they think it's an overreaction by police. It's not. It's common-f'n-sense in a scene where you don't know who is who.

And I firmly believe anyone that thinks police should act differently are just being willfully stupid.
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Old 09-07-2013, 12:15   #149
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
Actually, you completely miss the point (though I think that's intentional).

What I posted doesn't tell you at all whether the guy with the gun is a good guy or a bad guy. And that's likely what the police are going to have to work with when the arrive on a scene.

If you see two guys, one on the ground, one standing over him with a gun, and you don't know who's who, you would never, ever take for granted that the guy with the gun is a good guy. That's a good way to get someone killed. You treat everyone like a bad guy until you get it sorted out. That might mean cuffs, that might mean being planted face-first on the ground.

And that pisses off a lot of people, because they think it's an overreaction by police. It's not. It's common-f'n-sense in a scene where you don't know who is who.

And I firmly believe anyone that thinks police should act differently are just being willfully stupid.

Absolutely agree with what you've said here. The police superintendent of Chicago is still a complete, fascist, tool. His remarks weren't about officer safety or good police work. They were about trying to intimidate people who might carry in his city, and the Trayvon Martin line, in particular, was highly offensive and clearly pandering to his (mayor's) base.
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Old 09-07-2013, 13:27   #150
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Originally Posted by donovan655 View Post
What is your suggestion?
I will go on the assumption that you answer to my question about experience is "None" then?

Hard to explain to someone who expects solutions to situations they don't have experience with.

Unless you can get the bad guys to wear black hats and the good guys to wear white ones and turn all the cops into "Robocop" you are dealing with very fluid and very inconsistent situations. It is impossible to sit at a computer and create firm and consistent rules for that.

As a society we have fooled ourselves into thinking we can write rules that will take the human element out of life.

There are no "solutions" to some things in life.
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Old 09-07-2013, 13:58   #151
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
Actually, you completely miss the point (though I think that's intentional).
Another assumption...to go along with this one..

Quote:
Based on that, what do you think the first officer on site should assume? "Well, the guy with gun is PROBABLY a good guy, CCW holder, so I'll just stroll up and ask how his night's going......"
I think you are simply trying to over-argue something that we both agree on.

You made the initial assumption that I was being ridiculous.

I shot one back at you...reductio ad absurdum...

We can keep playing your stupid shell game, or we can both understand that we both agree.

Lord have mercy...


Quote:
What I posted doesn't tell you at all whether the guy with the gun is a good guy or a bad guy. And that's likely what the police are going to have to work with when the arrive on a scene.

If you see two guys, one on the ground, one standing over him with a gun, and you don't know who's who, you would never, ever take for granted that the guy with the gun is a good guy. That's a good way to get someone killed. You treat everyone like a bad guy until you get it sorted out. That might mean cuffs, that might mean being planted face-first on the ground.
I totally agree with this.

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And I firmly believe anyone that thinks police should act differently are just being willfully stupid.
Never said I did.
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Old 09-07-2013, 14:00   #152
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I will go on the assumption that you answer to my question about experience is "None" then?

Hard to explain to someone who expects solutions to situations they don't have experience with.

Unless you can get the bad guys to wear black hats and the good guys to wear white ones and turn all the cops into "Robocop" you are dealing with very fluid and very inconsistent situations. It is impossible to sit at a computer and create firm and consistent rules for that.

As a society we have fooled ourselves into thinking we can write rules that will take the human element out of life.

There are no "solutions" to some things in life.


ok.
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Old 09-08-2013, 09:13   #153
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So the training for a CHL (in the eyes of Mr. McCarthy) is designed and meant to give the candidate the same level of LAW ENFORCEMENT training that Police officers undergo? Because an officer's training covers a whole lot more than safe firearm handling and such... It's not "6 weeks of training and go be a cop", it's 6 weeks of constant drilling safety rules into the candidates head until they become second nature; in that respect, IL's CHL program seems to offer the most comprehensive training out of any state and therefore I feel that Mr. McCarthy should be VERY glad about that specific fact if he's so worried about his citizens' ability to posses and carry firearms.

Now take PA for example; no training required in order to obtain a CHL, yet we don't see what Mr. McCarthy predicts will happen in IL in large cities like Pittsburgh.

I guess Mr. McCarthy just has a lot of unfounded fears, perhaps the way he was raised.
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Old 09-08-2013, 11:59   #154
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Another one bit the dust here in the west coast of Florida. Drunk, stupid and shooting his guns in his back yard. Past midnight playing music loud. Cops called. Guy steps out on porch with 44mag revolver. Cops tell him to put it down. He did and reached in the door for a lever action rifle and aimed it at the cops. Now if it were you, would you aerate the guy or stand there and plead with him to not shoot you with his rifle? I kinda doubt the latter. Cops shouldn't be expected to get shot first either.
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Old 09-08-2013, 12:15   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donovan655 View Post


ok.
Plenty of people are giving you opinions based on real life experience. Bottom line, it is rare for a situation involving a fluid life threatening event to come out with clear and concise details so that everyone "knows" what is going on before they get there. It is a fact.
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Old 09-08-2013, 12:18   #156
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It happens, but it doesn't happen very often. Even in States where they've had "shall issue" for years it has happened only rarely.

But the fact that it happens at all should make every CCW think and act carefully anytime they have a gun in their hand in public.

OTOH, I expect there have been numerous instances where an off-duty cop or CCW has successfully followed the commands of the responding officers they weren't so bloodthirsty as to shoot him for the fun of it. [/SARCASM]

Regards,
Happyguy
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Old 09-08-2013, 17:06   #157
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I think he was just saying that CCW holders are going to have to use extreme caution if the gun is visible to a police officer. Right now the cops just assume that everyone with a gun is a criminal cause they are (pre CCW law).
I just hope for the sake of CCW holders that if they are defending themselves and a police officer sees the gun they ask for them to put it down rather than shooting first. Also the CCW holder realizes its a cop and doesnt point it at him if confronted immediately after a self defense situation.
I guess this wouldnt be any different than in other states that have had the CCW law for decades...as long as the cops dont get trigger happy we all win

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Old 09-08-2013, 17:10   #158
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Now wait a minute, janitors I might trust with a gun, this dummy needs a job befitting his ability to think. Do they have Colonels in the Chicago Police force? He could maybe attain the position of Colonel of the Urinal. Thus he could be supervised by a janitor and help keep Chicago safe and clean at the same time.
I wouldn't trust him running a Kentucky Fried Chicken
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Old 09-08-2013, 18:23   #159
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Originally Posted by boose88 View Post
I think he was just saying that CCW holders are going to have to use extreme caution if the gun is visible to a police officer. Right now the cops just assume that everyone with a gun is a criminal cause they are (pre CCW law).
I just hope for the sake of CCW holders that if they are defending themselves and a police officer sees the gun they ask for them to put it down rather than shooting first. Also the CCW holder realizes its a cop and doesnt point it at him if confronted immediately after a self defense situation.
I guess this wouldnt be any different than in other states that have had the CCW law for decades...as long as the cops dont get trigger happy we all win

You think that's all he was saying? Did you read this part?

Quote:
You say concealed carry I say Trayvon Martin. Police officers make mistakes all the time,” McCarthy said. “We spend six months in the police academy, six months of field training and ongoing training on a regular basis and the fact is once in a while we’re going to shoot someone with a cellphone; we’re going to shoot somebody with a flashlight and none of that is okay. But now you take John Q. Civilian, you give them six weeks or 10 weeks of training and you say ‘have at it?’ The fact is more guns are not the solution to the firearm gun violence problem in this country. Less guns and reasonable gun laws are. And just because it’s 49 states to one doesn’t mean the state of Illinois is wrong on that one.” - See more at: http://gunsnfreedom.com/chicago-poli....oAOrid6s.dpuf
This guy doesn't want anyone carrying except gov employees. His agenda has nothing to do with protecting CCW holders.
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Old 09-08-2013, 20:59   #160
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The fact is more guns if history out side of Chicago which by the way has some of the most draconian gun laws on the books will equal less crime. John Lott has done extensive research on this. Also when we as the general public stop putting all cops up on some special pedestal and hold bad cops to account. We hear about Ohio cop Daniel Harless rant and find he has a history of rants yet get's his job back. We have a Texas DPS trooper do a road side body cavity search on not one but two women fired, criminal charges filed but the senior trooper accused of stealing pharmaceuticals and called for and allowed the road side probe keeps his job. We need civilian oversight on all complaints not an in-house Eric Holder well investigate ourselves approach.
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