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Old 09-06-2013, 19:36   #126
RussP
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Originally Posted by maxmanta View Post
What is it with cops and that stupid little moustache?
The "cops" with "that stupid little moustache," do you find a common denominator among those sporting them?
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Old 09-06-2013, 20:34   #127
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Honestly Bren I totally agree with you that if I were to point my weapon at a police officer I would be in deep trouble. BUT I do not hold police officers above that same threat. If they were to point their gun at me wouldn't I also be just as justified to shoot first or are regular citizens not afforded the same life expectancies?
Probably not - under Kentucky law, for example (it's the same in many places) you lose the right to self defense if:
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Notwithstanding the provisions of KRS 503.050, the use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is not justifiable when:
(1) The defendant is resisting an arrest by a peace officer, recognized to be acting under color of official authority and using no more force than reasonably necessary to effect the arrest, although the arrest is unlawful; or
The police can use a threat of force to make an arrest, so the only way you'd have a defense is if you couldn't tell he was the police.

However, if someone not identified as a police officer points a gun at you, both you and the police have the same right to shoot him, whether he is a CCWer, a bank robber, or an undercover cop.
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Old 09-06-2013, 20:40   #128
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Wouldn't that be state's rights in a nutshell?

CA is the only state in the union that allows lane splitting by motorcycles. Are they wrong or are they right?

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California is wrong about that, like everything else. When 49 other states do the opposite, odds are your state is wrong - not always, but likely. Lane splitting is a good example of that - it endangers everybody on the road..
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Old 09-06-2013, 21:08   #129
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How are LE supposed to know if you're the good guy or not?


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When we tell you. Or if you have good dispatch they will give you the description so you will know beforehand
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Old 09-06-2013, 21:33   #130
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When we tell you. Or if you have good dispatch they will give you the description so you will know beforehand
You just said the words dispatch and good description in the same sentence....


They'd probably give me the call as a shoplifter.

I'm going home every night. Plain and simple.




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Old 09-06-2013, 21:37   #131
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Aaah, from the mouth of another Chicago thug. What a surprise,..........NOT!
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Old 09-06-2013, 21:39   #132
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You just said the words dispatch and good description in the same sentence....


They'd probably give me the call as a shoplifter.

I'm going home every night. Plain and simple.




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I want you to go home every night too. Not sure what that comment means.
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Old 09-06-2013, 21:44   #133
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I want you to go home every night too. Not sure what that comment means.
It means in a perfect world things will go like that. We live and strive in an imperfect world. I've been dispatched to a shots fired call at a restaurant and the only thing I was told was "units, start heading to such and such, shots fired, gettin further. I was on scene 80 seconds later. My partner was there in less than 20. Had no idea what we were walking into. No doubt if somebody had been standing atop someone else with a gun in their hand, they'd have been proned out for a few minutes until we figure it out.


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Old 09-06-2013, 21:54   #134
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It means in a perfect world things will go like that. We live and strive in an imperfect world. I've been dispatched to a shots fired call at a restaurant and the only thing I was told was "units, start heading to such and such, shots fired, gettin further. I was on scene 80 seconds later. My partner was there in less than 20. Had no idea what we were walking into. No doubt if somebody had been standing atop someone else with a gun in their hand, they'd have been proned out for a few minutes until we figure it out.


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And if it is a good guy you will get an indication that they will cooperate and want to help and have acted in self defense--as soon as they know you are on scene. You will see someone glad you are there.
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Old 09-06-2013, 22:08   #135
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And if it is a good guy you will get an indication that they will cooperate and want to help and have acted in self defense--as soon as they know you are on scene. You will see someone glad you are there.
One would hope so.


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Old 09-06-2013, 22:48   #136
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And if it is a good guy you will get an indication that they will cooperate and want to help and have acted in self defense--as soon as they know you are on scene. You will see someone glad you are there.
Unless you open carry and record yourself for YouTube. Officers can be running into a dispatched call of shots fired - and you could have someone who won't show their hands or won't show their "papers."

You would hope the good guys would be cooperative - especially when it comes to guns.
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Old 09-06-2013, 23:23   #137
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When we tell you. Or if you have good dispatch they will give you the description so you will know beforehand
Forget about whether dispatch passes complete information to responding officers or not. Let's assume they give every detail they've received.

But you're still assuming the dispatcher will know who the good guy is. I'm willing to bet the most common call will be coming from a bystander, someone that probably didn't even see what happened, but the call will be something like:

"We need the police out here! There are two guys, they were fighting, but now one is laying in the street, the other one is pointing a gun at him. The guy with a gun is wearing....."

Based on that, what do you think the first officer on site should assume? "Well, the guy with gun is PROBABLY a good guy, CCW holder, so I'll just stroll up and ask how his night's going......"
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Old 09-06-2013, 23:27   #138
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You would hope the good guys would be cooperative - especially when it comes to guns.
Most, if not all, good guys will be cooperative. It's the other ones Coppers need be wary of and the amount of time they have to determine same when rolling up on the scene.

Much ado about nothing other than one appointed Chief Twit's verbal diarrhea (with some truth contained therein tho). 99% of CCWs will never need to use their weapon, will avoid going to places they do not belong at times they do not belong there. (I made that number up as I haven't a clue how many CCWs get into firefights daily in the US )

Will the wild kids and bad guys get the same message and play by the same rules? Not to date. Never. Unless you, as a CCW shoot one of their buddies. Then I'd expect them to cooperate with the officers and tell the coppers how you ambushed them while they were on a "skittle-n-tea'" run or something else creative)

I'd fear an Al Sharpton/JJackson response to a legit CCW shooting in Chicago before I'd really worry about a single CPD Copper shooting me... myself. But that's just me and I'll avoid Chicago unless I can't (and I think I can make to my dying day without ever going back).
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Old 09-06-2013, 23:36   #139
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When we tell you. Or if you have good dispatch they will give you the description so you will know beforehand
Quote:
Originally Posted by donovan655 View Post
And if it is a good guy you will get an indication that they will cooperate and want to help and have acted in self defense--as soon as they know you are on scene. You will see someone glad you are there.


What is your experience in calling the police in an emergency and having them respond? Have they always arrived with all the knowledge you thought they should have had?

You might be surprised at how weird even the "good guy" can act at a scene. That is one of the reasons for extreme caution.

It never works as well as the perfect scripts on TV.



(none of this is to imply that the official, who is the topic of the thread, isn't a jerk)
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Old 09-07-2013, 04:26   #140
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If person has just been under the stress of a deadly force incident he may or may not be thinking clearly.

That's one of the reasons good guys get shot and it's another good reason for cops to respond with extreme caution.

There is more than ample opportunity for anyone involved to make a mistake or compound someone else's mistake.

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Old 09-07-2013, 06:53   #141
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What is your experience in calling the police in an emergency and having them respond? Have they always arrived with all the knowledge you thought they should have had?

You might be surprised at how weird even the "good guy" can act at a scene. That is one of the reasons for extreme caution.

It never works as well as the perfect scripts on TV.



(none of this is to imply that the official, who is the topic of the thread, isn't a jerk)
What is your suggestion?
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Old 09-07-2013, 06:59   #142
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Forget about whether dispatch passes complete information to responding officers or not. Let's assume they give every detail they've received.

But you're still assuming the dispatcher will know who the good guy is. I'm willing to bet the most common call will be coming from a bystander, someone that probably didn't even see what happened, but the call will be something like:

"We need the police out here! There are two guys, they were fighting, but now one is laying in the street, the other one is pointing a gun at him. The guy with a gun is wearing....."

Based on that, what do you think the first officer on site should assume? "Well, the guy with gun is PROBABLY a good guy, CCW holder, so I'll just stroll up and ask how his night's going......"
Your scenario only leaves the assumption that the person holding the gun is a bad guy. So the responding officer should do what then? mag-dump and call it a night?

Then to remove the risk of this situation happening--ever--then we are what, not supposed to carry?

Sounds like that is the logical conclusion...
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Old 09-07-2013, 07:01   #143
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Your scenario only leaves the assumption that the person holding the gun is a bad guy. So the responding officer should do what then? mag-dump and call it a night?

Then to remove the risk of this situation happening--ever--then we are what, not supposed to carry?

Sounds like that is the logical conclusion...
What he means is good guy, bad guy or indifferent we need to be cautious.

Which means you'll probably get a .40 pointed at you..


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Old 09-07-2013, 07:04   #144
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What a tool
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Old 09-07-2013, 07:14   #145
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What he means is good guy, bad guy or indifferent we need to be cautious.

Which means you'll probably get a .40 pointed at you..


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Pointing...acceptable.
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Old 09-07-2013, 07:53   #146
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The Police Superintendent is an appointed position by the Mayor of Chicago.

What do you really expect Gary "Francis" McCarthy to say about the 2nd Ammendment and those who would excercise those rights?

https://portal.chicagopolice.org/por...#39;s%20Office
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Old 09-07-2013, 08:16   #147
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What is your suggestion?
Get training.

Ayoob would be a good choice.
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Old 09-07-2013, 08:28   #148
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Your scenario only leaves the assumption that the person holding the gun is a bad guy. So the responding officer should do what then? mag-dump and call it a night?

Then to remove the risk of this situation happening--ever--then we are what, not supposed to carry?

Sounds like that is the logical conclusion...
Actually, you completely miss the point (though I think that's intentional).

What I posted doesn't tell you at all whether the guy with the gun is a good guy or a bad guy. And that's likely what the police are going to have to work with when the arrive on a scene.

If you see two guys, one on the ground, one standing over him with a gun, and you don't know who's who, you would never, ever take for granted that the guy with the gun is a good guy. That's a good way to get someone killed. You treat everyone like a bad guy until you get it sorted out. That might mean cuffs, that might mean being planted face-first on the ground.

And that pisses off a lot of people, because they think it's an overreaction by police. It's not. It's common-f'n-sense in a scene where you don't know who is who.

And I firmly believe anyone that thinks police should act differently are just being willfully stupid.
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Old 09-07-2013, 12:15   #149
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Actually, you completely miss the point (though I think that's intentional).

What I posted doesn't tell you at all whether the guy with the gun is a good guy or a bad guy. And that's likely what the police are going to have to work with when the arrive on a scene.

If you see two guys, one on the ground, one standing over him with a gun, and you don't know who's who, you would never, ever take for granted that the guy with the gun is a good guy. That's a good way to get someone killed. You treat everyone like a bad guy until you get it sorted out. That might mean cuffs, that might mean being planted face-first on the ground.

And that pisses off a lot of people, because they think it's an overreaction by police. It's not. It's common-f'n-sense in a scene where you don't know who is who.

And I firmly believe anyone that thinks police should act differently are just being willfully stupid.

Absolutely agree with what you've said here. The police superintendent of Chicago is still a complete, fascist, tool. His remarks weren't about officer safety or good police work. They were about trying to intimidate people who might carry in his city, and the Trayvon Martin line, in particular, was highly offensive and clearly pandering to his (mayor's) base.
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Old 09-07-2013, 13:27   #150
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What is your suggestion?
I will go on the assumption that you answer to my question about experience is "None" then?

Hard to explain to someone who expects solutions to situations they don't have experience with.

Unless you can get the bad guys to wear black hats and the good guys to wear white ones and turn all the cops into "Robocop" you are dealing with very fluid and very inconsistent situations. It is impossible to sit at a computer and create firm and consistent rules for that.

As a society we have fooled ourselves into thinking we can write rules that will take the human element out of life.

There are no "solutions" to some things in life.
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