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Old 09-04-2013, 20:12   #81
JBerk
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Originally Posted by Ohio Copper View Post
How are LE supposed to know if you're the good guy or not?


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I would really hope that the training the Chicago police go through is to not shoot everyone with a gun and we'll call it justified
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Old 09-04-2013, 20:18   #82
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It may not be just Chicago PD. If there is a call regarding a shooting and when police arrive someone is holding a gun, at when is the appropriate time for the police to shoot?
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Old 09-04-2013, 20:18   #83
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I would really hope that the training the Chicago police go through is to not shoot everyone with a gun and we'll call it justified
So, if a person you have never seen before, who just shot another person you don't know, turns and points a gun at you (yes, that's what he said) you would not shoot him?

If that's your strategy, YOU had better take another look at your training.
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Old 09-04-2013, 20:27   #84
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Cool, so in Illinois, you have a choice! You can get shot by a criminal or one of McCarthy's officers. For my family's sake, I'll choose the cops, they have deeper pockets.
Are you being redundant here?
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Old 09-04-2013, 20:34   #85
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What he said was, if you face a cop with a gun in your hand, you'll get shot. I would expect that to happen anywhere.
Indeed...but if you read between the lines, it seems clear to me that the implication is that the CPD will harrass citizens lawfully carrying concealed weapons at every opportunity.

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It sounded to me like a veiled threat. "If yous guys wanna carry a concealed weapon, you may end up getting shot by the police." It was meant to intimidate the citizenry to think twice about arming themselves in public.
Agreed.
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Old 09-04-2013, 20:42   #86
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I honestly think some posters missed the second half of the quote. I'm including it here, it was lower down in the article.

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You say concealed carry I say Trayvon Martin. Police officers make mistakes all the time,” McCarthy said. “We spend six months in the police academy, six months of field training and ongoing training on a regular basis and the fact is once in a while we’re going to shoot someone with a cellphone; we’re going to shoot somebody with a flashlight and none of that is okay. But now you take John Q. Civilian, you give them six weeks or 10 weeks of training and you say ‘have at it?’ The fact is more guns are not the solution to the firearm gun violence problem in this country. Less guns and reasonable gun laws are. And just because it’s 49 states to one doesn’t mean the state of Illinois is wrong on that one.” - See more at: http://gunsnfreedom.com/chicago-poli....GQ9m8GIw.dpuf

If the bolded sentences above, in and of themselves, don't tell you this guy's agenda couldn't be more hostile, I don't know how to have further dialogue with you. I think his clear bias makes the implications of his words obvious.

ETA: Will CC cause an uptick in shootings? Probably. I certainly hope so. The thing about this guy is, he doesn't care who is getting shot. A live civilian standing over a dead badguy is every bit as tragic to him as a dead civilian with LEOs hunting the badguy.
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Old 09-04-2013, 20:42   #87
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Originally Posted by Ohio Copper View Post
How are LE supposed to know if you're the good guy or not?


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This is a serious question that i have often thought about.

ive always thought, like i posted earlier, if possible, let dispatch know your description, and also if possible, have your sidearm holstered.

lets assume, just like OP posted recently, that the bad guy is still a threat after you have shot him. (yeah i know, get more range time, right?) What should you do, knowing that LEO are arriving, but you dont want to re-holster due to a still-relevant threat laying on the ground bleeding?

i would assume LEO wouldnt just shoot you dead on sight, but who knows. scary situation for both parties.

would you drop your gun and be vulnerable to the BG?

would you keep your weapon trained on BG and be vulnerable to LEO?

i have no sort of training so these are serious questions.
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Old 09-04-2013, 20:46   #88
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By the way plainclothes and detectives have to deal with sort of thing. An officer in Roseville was killed this way.

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Old 09-04-2013, 20:52   #89
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By the way plainclothes and detectives have to deal with sort of thing. An officer in Roseville was killed this way.

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Maybe we should take UC's guns away to keep them safe from other officers?

(Yes, that was facetious. Meant to illustrate the absurdity of this politician's speech.)
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Old 09-04-2013, 20:53   #90
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Originally Posted by Ohio Copper View Post
How are LE supposed to know if you're the good guy or not?
With a CCW sash...duh.

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Old 09-04-2013, 20:55   #91
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Originally Posted by Dubble-Tapper View Post
This is a serious question that i have often thought about.

ive always thought, like i posted earlier, if possible, let dispatch know your description, and also if possible, have your sidearm holstered.

lets assume, just like OP posted recently, that the bad guy is still a threat after you have shot him. (yeah i know, get more range time, right?) What should you do, knowing that LEO are arriving, but you dont want to re-holster due to a still-relevant threat laying on the ground bleeding?

i would assume LEO wouldnt just shoot you dead on sight, but who knows. scary situation for both parties.

would you drop your gun and be vulnerable to the BG?

would you keep your weapon trained on BG and be vulnerable to LEO?

i have no sort of training so these are serious questions.
I'm not a LEO, I cannot remotely claim to understand what they deal with. One common theme I have noticed, though, in Officer involved shootings, is a fundamental failure to follow the officers' instructions, and or a sudden and potentially hostile move toward the officers. Barring that, I think I'll get an opportunity to drop my gun and tell my side, unless very unlucky.
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Old 09-04-2013, 21:00   #92
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Can't I just wear a flak jacket emblazoned with "ARMED SECURITY"?


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Old 09-04-2013, 21:05   #93
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So, if a person you have never seen before, who just shot another person you don't know, turns and points a gun at you (yes, that's what he said) you would not shoot him?

If that's your strategy, YOU had better take another look at your training.
Honestly Bren I totally agree with you that if I were to point my weapon at a police officer I would be in deep trouble. BUT I do not hold police officers above that same threat. If they were to point their gun at me wouldn't I also be just as justified to shoot first or are regular citizens not afforded the same life expectancies?
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Old 09-04-2013, 21:09   #94
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Honestly Bren I totally agree with you that if I were to point my weapon at a police officer I would be in deep trouble. BUT I do not hold police officers above that same threat. If they were to point their gun at me wouldn't I also be just as justified to shoot first or are regular citizens not afforded the same life expectancies?
Against a uniformed peace officer?


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Old 09-04-2013, 21:09   #95
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Originally Posted by JBerk View Post
Honestly Bren I totally agree with you that if I were to point my weapon at a police officer I would be in deep trouble. BUT I do not hold police officers above that same threat. If they were to point their gun at me wouldn't I also be just as justified to shoot first or are regular citizens not afforded the same life expectancies?
You don't know what you don't know.

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Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?

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Old 09-04-2013, 21:16   #96
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I would never point my weapon at a police officer! The officer in the original story just gave me the impression that any encounter with a civilian with a weapon was fair game. To me he is obviously against CCW and I fear that his department is run in a manner that puts CCW holders in even more danger. I mean no disrespect but do enjoy the discussing.
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Old 09-04-2013, 21:16   #97
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With a threat like this the first time a Chicago cop kills a legal CCW holder a good case could be made for conspiracy to commit murder.
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Old 09-04-2013, 21:19   #98
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With a threat like this the first time a Chicago cop kills a legal CCW holder a good case could be made for conspiracy to commit murder.
Really?


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Old 09-04-2013, 21:27   #99
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Originally Posted by RagnarDanneskjold View Post
Maybe we should take UC's guns away to keep them safe from other officers?

(Yes, that was facetious. Meant to illustrate the absurdity of this politician's speech.)
Not funny...There have been a number of non-uniformed officers shot by other officers. It is a topic discussed constantly in training and briefings. Like I said, not funny, some might consider it very inappropriate.
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Old 09-04-2013, 21:39   #100
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Don't forget he may not represent the views of the rank and file. Didn't the CPD Lieutenants Association come out in favor of concealed carry a couple years back?
There's no "may" about it. Both the CPD Sgts and Lts professional organization both signed on in support of state-wide CCW. The Chief (or Superintendent, whatever they call him there) can say whatever he wants, but the boots on the street know what they're doing FAR more than he does, and more than he thinks they do.


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Okay, I'm the OP. What I got out of his statements are that if I'm in a justifiable shooting and the bad guy is still able to still move and I've got my weapon at the ready or by some miracle the bad guy gives up, when the police show up there is a high probability of me getting shot.
You're a cop.

You get a dispatch call of a guy with a gun, and when you get on scene, you see a guy on the ground, hands up, and another standing over him with a gun in his hand. That's all the information you have. Make a decision, right now, based on that. Who's the bad guy? Who's the threat, and who's the victim?

What's your answer? Who's who?

If you're the guy with the gun, you know you're the good guy, but the cop doesn't know that. If I'm the guy on the ground, being threatened or robbed at gunpoint, I really don't think I want to the cop to wait and start checking IDs. Action is faster than reaction, and if the guy with the gun decides to shoot me, the cops might kill him immediately after, but that's not going to save me, is it?

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Originally Posted by Dubble-Tapper View Post
This is a serious question that i have often thought about.

ive always thought, like i posted earlier, if possible, let dispatch know your description, and also if possible, have your sidearm holstered.
The problem here is you're postulating that YOU called the cops. That's great, but in a real-word situation, odds are it's going to be the little old lady in the house across the street, or the guy walking his dog, or the mom running away, pushing a stroller and glancing over her shoulder.

To answer the rest of your questions, once the cops are on the scene, if you're not ACTIVELY fighting with the bad guy, it probably mean you're out of arms reach. So, yes, once the cops are there, drop your gun and keep your hands in clear sight. If the bad guy charges you, get the hell out of the way any way you can and let the cops deal with it.

And before anyone jumps on me, I said ONCE THE COPS ARE THERE, not that you should lay your gun down and call the cops, waiting for them to save the day.
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