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Old 09-01-2013, 18:43   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
Now if the 'bullion bank' is, in fact, a national entity like Turkey or China, then you are absolutely correct that they may say "go to hell" to the BIS, and since they have an army to back their refusal up, things could get nasty. I believe that's what Gecko45 was touching on when he said that's how wars get started.
Exactly. If an entity starts playing the "I know you own this, but screw you we're keeping it" game then you can be damn sure the butthurt party is gonna want their gold back.

Of course, Glocksanity will try to suggest that all the big players will be in collusion together such that only little guys get screwed, but that's just nucking futs. Most of these national entities can barely tolerate each other's existence let alone collude on such a massive scale.
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Old 09-01-2013, 18:59   #177
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You guys just don't see that gold at $55,000 solves a huge problem rather than creating one.

You don't understand that Central Banks, Sovereign wealth funds, oil producing nations, and net producers want gold to preserve their wealth. And when they can no longer purchase huge amounts of gold at the current price, the price must re-adjust to get gold flowing again.

Now, if you don't accept that premise, than you will never understand why gold at $55,000 is a solution to a problem.

I agree with that premise. You probably don't simply because you have not heard or learned about it. This is not common knowledge talked about on our MSM.

But China, Russia, India, Brazil, and S. Africa, all have a different idea about storing wealth than you do. They love gold!!! They have come to hate the US dollar.

I keep hearing about how the U.S. dollar is here to stay forever as the world's reserve currency. Why? Oooh, game theory. Nash equilibrium. Ha ha ha. Things change. And they are a changin right now for those that can see it.

You guys are living in the age of Pisces. Welcome to the Age of Aquarius! Different rules man, and gold will be king again!!
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Old 09-01-2013, 19:00   #178
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Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
..Now if the 'bullion bank' is, in fact, a national entity like Turkey or China, then you are absolutely correct that they may say "go to hell" to the BIS, and since they have an army to back their refusal up, things could get nasty. I believe that's what Gecko45 was touching on when he said that's how wars get started. ...

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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Exactly. If an entity starts playing the "I know you own this, but screw you we're keeping it" game then you can be damn sure the butthurt party is gonna want their gold back.

So what did the U.S. and France tell Germany recently when the Germans asked for their gold?

According to news sources it went something like:

"OK... sure.... can we pay you, uh a little now and a little next, uh... sometime between now and uh... 2020 ?"

Germany sure-as-hell has no desire to declare war, but it'll be pretty interesting to see how that plays out.

Was that only an isolated incident?
Can it happen again?

.
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Old 09-01-2013, 19:08   #179
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I keep hearing about how the U.S. dollar is here to stay forever as the world's reserve currency. Why? Oooh, game theory. Nash equilibrium. Ha ha ha. Things change. And they are a changin right now for those that can see it.
Where did I ever say that the US dollar was guaranteed to remain as the world reserve currency indefinitely? All I've ever said is that the scenario laid out in the article is highly unlikely and would be a net lose for all involved.
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Old 09-01-2013, 19:09   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
So what did the U.S. and France tell Germany recently when the Germans asked for their gold?

According to news sources it went something like:

"OK... sure.... can we pay you, uh a little now and a little next, uh... sometime between now and uh... 2020 ?"

Germany sure-as-hell has no desire to declare war, but it'll be pretty interesting to see how that plays out.

Was that only an isolated incident?
Can it happen again?

.
And that is exactly the lack of gold flow that was alluded to in the original article in this thread. The gold isn't flowing among the real big boys and that is bad news. The only way to get it flowing again is to price it way higher so those that do hold it will release it at the higher price.

Gold at $55,000 is a SOLUTION to the biggest problem that our current system has created. Simple concept, but most can't wrap their heads around it.
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Old 09-01-2013, 19:19   #181
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Originally Posted by Glocksanity View Post
And that is exactly the lack of gold flow that was alluded to in the original article in this thread. The gold isn't flowing among the real big boys and that is bad news. The only way to get it flowing again is to price it way higher so those that do hold it will release it at the higher price.

Gold at $55,000 is a SOLUTION to the biggest problem that our current system has created. Simple concept, but most can't wrap their heads around it.
You can't wrap your head around reality.

I'm not sure I've ever met someone so obstinate about a position.
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Old 09-01-2013, 19:29   #182
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You can't wrap your head around reality.

I'm not sure I've ever met someone so obstinate about a position.

What do you think?
Is there a significant possibility that another such default will occur as the one I described above?


What would you say is the probability that such will happen again within the coming year or two?

Could it happen that the next time it may be an entitty which does not have the same sort of relationship the German government has with the U.S. and France..?

And what do you think will happen if such an event triggers a sudden rush to the exits by a number of large/powerful entities holding paper gold promises?



You were paying attention earlier this year when the German government politely asked for the return of their gold and were sandbagged just as politely by the NY Fed, right?

When it was reported by MSNBC and The Wall Street Journal did you just dismiss it as the rantings of "some goldbug" ???

.
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Old 09-01-2013, 19:30   #183
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Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
So what did the U.S. and France tell Germany recently when the Germans asked for their gold?

According to news sources it went something like:

"OK... sure.... can we pay you, uh a little now and a little next, uh... sometime between now and uh... 2020 ?"

Germany sure-as-hell has no desire to declare war, but it'll be pretty interesting to see how that plays out.
I'm sure Germany wasn't happy about waiting, but when it's just you alone, what else are you gonna do? The gold armageddon described in the article would involve telling multiple countries that they would never get their gold. How long do you think it would take for the screwed over parties to start talking amongst one another? They can't tolerate each other in peace time, but give them a common enemy and see how long it takes for them to set aside their differences.
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Old 09-01-2013, 19:33   #184
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Does anyone else think Glocksanity sounds a lot like a Pump-and-Dump stock shill?
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Old 09-01-2013, 19:43   #185
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I'm sure Germany wasn't happy about waiting, but when it's just you alone, what else are you gonna do? The gold armageddon described in the article would involve telling multiple countries that they would never get their gold. How long do you think it would take for the screwed over parties to start talking amongst one another? They can't tolerate each other in peace time, but give them a common enemy and see how long it takes them to set aside their differences.
Again,
I have no opinion about the article cited in the OP.

"Never" is a very long time.
Think about it though... when someone is expected to pay and they can only come up with promises to pay "sometime", what does that usually portend?

The German government asked the U.S. Federal Reserve for a large quantity of gold held for the German people in trust..
Gold the German government expected to be right there, locked in a vault deep under the streets of NYC, with their name on it...

And the respose was "we'll come up with it... by 2012".

Again, would you assume then that this was only an isolated default? When it was OUR central bank holding a huge stash of gold for one of our closest allies and one of our top trading partners?

Do ya think maybe other potentially screwed-over parties are not talking 'mongst themselves already?

.
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Old 09-01-2013, 19:45   #186
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Does anyone else think Glocksanity sounds a lot like a Pump-and-Dump stock shill?
It sounds to me like he has become emotionally invested in his own investment portfolio. He needs it to be true.
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Old 09-01-2013, 19:50   #187
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Again, I have no opinion about the article cited in the OP.
Well, that's the context in which my comments should be taken. Perhaps you should start a new thread for whatever point you are trying to make.
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Old 09-01-2013, 19:55   #188
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Well, that's the context in which my comments should be taken. Perhaps you should start a new thread for whatever point you are trying to make.


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Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
Then the BIS member banks (who ultimately back most of the world's exchanges) get their vaults cleared out of all physical gold that they hold in order to pay off paper gold holders who are the actual legal owners of that physical gold.

Even if there is a 1000X multiplier of paper gold over physical, it is the PAPER gold holders who ultimately own the physical. Once the rush on the exchanges is through, those paper gold holders are the ones who wind up getting paid in physical gold...even if it's at just .01 cent per dollar.

Either way, though, the BIS doesn't get to hang on to their physical gold because the actual legal owners are the paper holders.
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Paper holders hold legally binding paper, and that legally binding paper gives them ownership of the BIS's physical gold.

Unless the BIS is looking to hire a mercenary army to fight off the police around their member bank's physical gold holding areas, the "paper gold" guys WILL get that physical gold.
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Um...NO. When the paper gets payed out, the gold is SEIZED. The central banks don't get to hang onto that gold after defaulting on their reserve obligations.

Hello?



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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
And here is where the conspiracy theory comes into play.

.....
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Old 09-01-2013, 20:16   #189
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.....
Are you suggesting that enforcing contractual obligations is somehow equivalent to a conspiracy? You seem to disagree with something, but you've been very noncommittal with what exactly you disagree with. Help us out here and state clearly what your position is on the OP's article and the scenario it lays out?
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Old 09-01-2013, 20:26   #190
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Are you suggesting that enforcing contractual obligations is somehow equivalent to a conspiracy? You seem to disagree with something, but you've been very noncommittal with what exactly you disagree with. Help us out here and state clearly what your position is on the OP's article and the scenario it lays out?
No, I am not suggesting any conspiracy at all.
The use of "conspiracy" was yours, not mine.


I have stated repeatedly that I have no opinion about the article.

In the post above you suggested that I just go away and that you don't understand the point I was making regarding the recent default.
I quoted for you the posts to which that was directed.

If I'm not being clear enough to satisfy you then please allow me to suggest one of several options open to you:
a) ignore me in this thread.
b) put me on your ignore-list and ignore me permanently.
c) re-read some of my previous posts and try again.


If I've offended you then I apologize for doing so.
It was in no way intended.
.
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Old 09-01-2013, 20:56   #191
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It probably happens by 2020. Well within my lifetime.

But let's be honest. Are you really going to fork over $55,000 to a stranger on the internet? Heck no.
So you're not willing to put your money where your mouth is. Pretty much what I expected.
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Old 09-01-2013, 21:03   #192
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No, I am not suggesting any conspiracy at all. The use of "conspiracy" was yours, not mine.
It was phrased as a question.

Quote:
I have stated repeatedly that I have no opinion about the article.
Then why are you posting in a thread dedicated to discussing it?

Quote:
In the post above you suggested that I just go away and that you don't understand the point I was making regarding the recent default. I quoted for you the posts to which that was directed.
No, I suggested that you either state your position on the thread topic or start a new thread to discuss whatever it is you are trying to say.

Quote:
If I'm not being clear enough to satisfy you then please allow me to suggest one of several options open to you:
a) ignore me in this thread.
b) put me on your ignore-list and ignore me permanently.
c) re-read some of my previous posts and try again.
And my suggestion to you is either stick to the thread topic or start a new thread for your tangential topic.

Quote:
If I've offended you then I apologize for doing so.
It was in no way intended.
Well, stop using CavDoc style debate tactics and say what you mean.
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Old 09-01-2013, 22:45   #193
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Geko...

I apologize if I'm being stubborn.

Think of it this way..
The "allure" of gold, the affinity of humans to gold, has spanned cultures and continents since before recorded history.
For all the assertions that gold is today no more than a "barbarous relic", it's held by governments, central banks, corporations, and even major universities.

Given that, how could you believe that the market would NOT be subject to endless manipulation and a thousand layers of intrigue?

Think of the single fundamental difference between gold and almost every other commodity on earth: Most gold is held, not consumed.
People here have argued at length about whether gold is (or is not) "an investment", or "only speculation", or "a store of value".

My response to all that debate is that gold is.. simply what it is.
The question I've posed in the past here is "of all substances on earth, what is more definitive than gold?".


I post in these threads because so many want to contribute opinions but when you ask, most will reveal that they know no more about the reality of gold in the modern world than they know of politics on the 4th moon of Saturn.
It really is an extremely complex, multi-faceted market around the globe.
I've spent some time in learning something about it, for years.
Even so, what I've learned is that most of us will never be able to know much..


I don't personally predict what the dollar price of gold may be tomorrow or next year.
I have no idea at all, none. Nor do I really care. More so than anything else I know, "it is what it is".



.
It is, in fact, a measurement of wealth. Physically however, it is still only an ounce or pound or ton of gold, whatever weight is involved.

If we go to bed tonight with the price at 1500.00, and we wake up tomorrow to find it is 15,000, or 1.5 million, it is still in the same physical state it was in the day before, and where it will be tomorrow.

As representative wealth, it is the most stable and universally accepted symbol there is.

As far as actual value, it depends. In Stalingrad during the siege, a pound of gold couldn't buy enough food to keep a family well fed for a week while it would fill my pantry to capacity today for several years.

My home is worth more to me than it's fair market value in gold, silver or any other precious metal. It is a necessity for survival and those in the investment business that manipulate housing markets are the worst type of parasite in my opinion.

Most of us on this site invest in lead and brass, and if we have learned nothing else the past year it is a brick of .22lr we bought 5 years ago for 8.99 and sold this past February for 60 bucks was a pretty good investment, even if it never started out from that perspective. Originally it represented a fun day at the range, when supplies depleted it became a valuable commodity.

Nixon's attempt to replace the finite commodity of gold with the fiat commodity of the dollar on the world market (which by the early 1970's was recognized as the de facto world standard) and establish the Federal Reserve as the world's money faucet worked to a point, when the aforementioned balance was upset in the early 1990's when Greenspan allowed the Asian market to slide into stagnation, due in large part to massive defaults primarily in overpriced investments in the U.S.

Up to that point, the dollar had been the most stable, easily quantified measure of wealth. When we did not bail out the Asian market they lost big in dollars against the yen and dried up the flow of capital to the point they still haven't recovered.

While the Chinese came out unscathed due to the massive circulation of 'new' dollars not tied to Japanese and South Korean markets, they took note. They have been the largest purchaser of gold ever since from both the Swiss and Indian markets.

They hold the majority of our debt, and have artificially devalued their own currency to keep the ratio as much in their own favor as possible.

I don't pretend to know either world finance nor military tactics, but I know a flanking maneuver when I see one...
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Old 09-02-2013, 02:54   #194
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So you're not willing to put your money where your mouth is. Pretty much what I expected.
Hardly.

So what, one ounce of gold payable January 1, 2021?

And you are going to come off $55,000 of gold? Okay. Bet on.
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Old 09-02-2013, 02:58   #195
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Does anyone else think Glocksanity sounds a lot like a Pump-and-Dump stock shill?
Stocks come and go. Gold lasts forever.

So much for a pump and dump.
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Old 09-02-2013, 02:59   #196
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It sounds to me like he has become emotionally invested in his own investment portfolio. He needs it to be true.
Actually, I use logic and rational thought.

If you can't see the changing architecture of the world financial system with all the new bi-lateral currency agreements as writing on the wall, then you are blind to the new reality.

Again, how do you like your crow? I will have lots of orders to fill, so I need to get started soon.
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Old 09-02-2013, 12:45   #197
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Again, how do you like your crow? I will have lots of orders to fill, so I need to get started soon.
You know, you've really got to wait for your doomer fantasy to come true before you can start gloating.
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Old 09-02-2013, 14:55   #198
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You know, you've really got to wait for your doomer fantasy to come true before you can start gloating.
This thread is just entertainment. Kind of a Rorschach test for Glock minds.

I would have thought that a bunch of freedom loving gun owners who love to quote the Constitution and most often support conservative principles would have been open minded enough to at least investigate a most conservative monetary principle that would help to put an end to all negative consequences of reckless government spending they so often complain about.

You see, this system would still allow government printing but would protect the average Joe's purchasing power.

I guess I have more hope for an honest monetary system than most here.
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Old 09-02-2013, 15:12   #199
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...help to put an end to all negative consequences of reckless government spending they so often complain about.....


...I guess I have more hope for an honest monetary system than most here.

Constitution of the U.S., Article 1, section 10





It's the law.
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Old 09-02-2013, 15:27   #200
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Originally Posted by Glocksanity View Post
It probably happens by 2020. Well within my lifetime.
Posted on 4-30-2013:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glocksanity View Post
But I would venture to say it will happen by 2018 or so with an outside chance it could happen in the next year or so.
In six months, your prediction has slid backwards two years.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...481711&page=10
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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42