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Old 08-30-2013, 12:39   #76
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Originally Posted by Glocksanity View Post
How did all that paper silver work for the Hunts? It didn't. The Hunts cornered the market with paper and were told to pound sand.
Ironically, the Hunts were brought down due to their attempts at market manipulation and yet you don't seem to understand that if BIS tries to manipulate the gold market as described then they too would suffer the same fate.
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Old 08-30-2013, 12:40   #77
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Gold is down $10.90 so far today, which makes it that much further from $55,000.
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Old 08-30-2013, 12:51   #78
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...It doesn't work that way. "Paper Gold" (ie. a gold futures certificate), is a legally binding document that obligates the seller to provide the listed amount of physical gold at the listed price. Should the seller forfeit, they will eventually be declared insolvent by the courts and their assets divided up to those whom they owe obligations to.
....

And if the quantity of paper is a significant multiple of the quantity of actual physical metal?
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Old 08-30-2013, 12:52   #79
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And if the quantity of paper is a significant multiple of the quantity of actual physical metal?
Everybody loses, including BIS, and gold re-revaluates to a sustainable level.
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Old 08-30-2013, 12:53   #80
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Ironically, the Hunts were brought down due to their attempts at market manipulation and yet you don't seem to understand that if BIS tries to manipulate the gold market as described then they too would suffer the same fate.

The Hunts were "brought down" under U.S. law.

What portion of the world gold market is under U.S. law?
What is the U.S. jurisdiction over the BIS?
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Old 08-30-2013, 13:00   #81
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What portion of the world gold market is under U.S. law?
What is the U.S. jurisdiction over the BIS?
It would not be the U.S. alone that would be hurt by this. BIS would make an enemy out of most of the modern world. Not a good business plan for long term survival. BIS would suffer a death by a thousand cuts in every jurisdiction in which they operate.
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Old 08-30-2013, 13:17   #82
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Originally Posted by Glocksanity View Post
Putting my money where my mouth is means that I stack gold.

As to when? Well like FOFOA says, can you predict an earthquake? Nope. But we do know they come. And if big ones come every 70 years and it has been 90 years since the last one, we are due. Can't predict the exact date, but we are due.
TRANSLATION: I'm a blowhard with no real answers.

Thank you for clearing that up.
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Old 08-30-2013, 13:19   #83
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Everybody loses, including BIS, and gold re-revaluates to a sustainable level.

Clarify please, in this context-

a) "everybody loses"
b) "a sustainable level"
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Old 08-30-2013, 13:32   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
Clarify please, in this context-

a) "everybody loses"
It goes down pretty much as tsmo described where the big guys get liquidated to fufill the paper holders and if there isn't enough physical to fufill the paper holders then they get pennies on the dollar and lose too. BIS at best becomes irrelevant and at worst ceases to exist. Everybody loses, BIS knows this and that is why they would never make the move described in the article.

A Nash equilibrium exists when each player knows the best equilbrium strategy of every other player and no player can benefit from an unilateral change in strategy. That is what currently exists in the gold market. For BIS to do as described in the article would force all other market players to change their strategy which would eventually arrive at a new equlibrium that is not beneficial to BIS. BIS is not dumb, they've thought this through and therefore keep the more desirable status quo.

The entire scenario laid out in the article relies on the tinfoilish presumption that BIS can act unilaterally without consequences. This is not the case.

Quote:
b) "a sustainable level"
A level at which a Nash equilibrium exists. The exact dollar value is irrelevant.
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Old 08-30-2013, 13:35   #85
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
It would not be the U.S. alone that would be hurt by this. BIS would make an enemy out of most of the modern world. Not a good business plan for long term survival. BIS would suffer a death by a thousand cuts in every jurisdiction in which they operate.

I'm not at all certain that long-term sustainability or survival is expected for the BIS in the face of such events...


The BIS is not IBM, or Apple, or Volkswagen.
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Old 08-30-2013, 13:38   #86
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A Nash equilibrium exists when each player knows the best equilbrium strategy of every other player and no player can benefit from an unilateral change in strategy. That is what currently exists in the gold market.

Perhaps you should do a little research into the gold market internationally...

Forget BIS for a moment.

I would suggest perhaps you should start with the LBMA and the COMEX.



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Old 08-30-2013, 13:41   #87
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The BIS is not IBM, or Apple, or Volkswagen.
No, but survival as an entity can be safely considered to be a desirable quality for any organization. The "customers" of BIS are national central banks and international financial entities. One must consider how their displeasure at the actions of BIS would affect its future.
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Old 08-30-2013, 13:47   #88
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I would suggest perhaps you should start with the LBMA and the COMEX.
When I talk of players in the market, I'm not necessarily talking about traders on a specific exchange. The global marketplace is bigger than that.
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Old 08-30-2013, 13:48   #89
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Ironically, the Hunts were brought down due to their attempts at market manipulation and yet you don't seem to understand that if BIS tries to manipulate the gold market as described then they too would suffer the same fate.
The Hunts just bought paper silver like the rules allowed them and then when they demanded delivery, the exchange changed the rules. So, your argument holds no water.

You also neglect to understand that the BIS is the Central Bank of all other Central Banks. So, if the BIS does something, it is because its member Central Banks want it.
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Old 08-30-2013, 13:51   #90
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You also neglect to understand that the BIS is the Central Bank of all other Central Banks. So, if the BIS does something, it is because its member Central Banks want it.
And this goes right back to your tinfoilish belief that the central banks are all colluding against the little guy and can somehow act with impunity. That is not the case. I won't pretend that they aren't acting according to their own rational self-interest, but a big part of that reasoning is realizing that if you push to hard, you will get pushed back.

You aren't thinking big enough.
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Old 08-30-2013, 13:54   #91
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It would not be the U.S. alone that would be hurt by this. BIS would make an enemy out of most of the modern world. Not a good business plan for long term survival. BIS would suffer a death by a thousand cuts in every jurisdiction in which they operate.
Banks are in the business of lending money. They would not be hurt by this in the long run. They would just go back to doing what they do.

What you fail to understand is the net producers on this planet would welcome this event. All the BRICS would rejoice. They are sick and tired of holding U.S. dollars and this gives their reserves true value.

As a matter of fact, most of the world's population would benefit from this. We would actually be separating the store of value and the medium of exchange functions of money and savers would no longer be punished.

You must think endless printing of US dollars is a good thing.
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Old 08-30-2013, 14:01   #92
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And this goes right back to your tinfoilish belief that the central banks are all colluding against the little guy and can somehow act with impunity. That is not the case. I won't pretend that they aren't acting according to their own rational self-interest, but a big part of that reasoning is realizing that if you push to hard, you will get pushed back.

You aren't thinking big enough.
It has nothing to do with collusion and everything to do with reality.

Inflation kills the little guy.

Artificially low interest rates kill the little guy and savers.

Bailing out reckless bank behavior kills the little guy.

Federal Reserve Banking does kill the little guy.

But, when gold becomes a store of value rather than paper in a Freegold scenario, you actually would have an honest money system that does not punish the saver and the little guy.

But you wouldn't know anything about that because you have not studied it.
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Old 08-30-2013, 14:13   #93
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Originally Posted by Glocksanity View Post
You must think endless printing of US dollars is a good thing.
I am not thinking in terms of "good" or "bad". I am merely recognizing that each player knows what everyones else's best strategy is and is acting accordingly. Nash equilibriums often don't bring about the best result. It is simply a way of predicting the most likely and most stable result.
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Old 08-30-2013, 14:19   #94
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But you wouldn't know anything about that because you have not studied it.
How would you know what I have and have not studied? Have I given you an autobiography that I don't recall? This is just a thinly veiled ad hom attack.

Since you've brought it up, I studied business administration in undergrad which included economcs and finance and am currently studying for my MBA.

To what extent have you studied financial markets? Does it go any deeper than Infowars.com?
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Old 08-30-2013, 14:37   #95
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
...A level at which a Nash equilibrium exists. The exact dollar value is irrelevant.
With this I can easily agree.
I suggest though that you give some thought to the reason that this is the exact literal truth.



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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
No, but survival as an entity can be safely considered to be a desirable quality for any organization. The "customers" of BIS are national central banks and international financial entities. One must consider how their displeasure at the actions of BIS would affect its future.


"Safely assumed"..
I think this discussion is centered on the intentions and goals of those same banks and international financial entities.

You are assuming to understand their priorities and goals within the context of an international fiscal crises created by the ongoing devaluation of those same entities' paper.


Devaluation of all national currencies is present-day fact.
I ask again: what defines the limit of currency devaluation?
If we are not assuming complete devaluation to zero (and I do not make such assumption myself), then what defines the limit to prevent a fall to zero?



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I am not thinking in terms of "good" or "bad". I am merely recognizing that each player knows what everyones else's best strategy is and is acting accordingly. Nash equilibriums often don't bring about the best result. It is simply a way of predicting the most likely and most stable result.



On what do you base this, within the global gold market?

I suggest that a study of the LBMA and the Comex is essential to any real understanding of the international gold markets.




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Old 08-30-2013, 15:02   #96
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Dude, you are a 5150 candidate.
^^ yup
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Old 08-30-2013, 15:09   #97
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Originally Posted by Glocksanity View Post
It has nothing to do with collusion and everything to do with reality.

Inflation kills the little guy.

Artificially low interest rates kill the little guy and savers.

Bailing out reckless bank behavior kills the little guy.

Federal Reserve Banking does kill the little guy.

But, when gold becomes a store of value rather than paper in a Freegold scenario, you actually would have an honest money system that does not punish the saver and the little guy.

But you wouldn't know anything about that because you have not studied it.
Almost all of that is rambling. But the part about inflation and savers is the worst. If you had any idea what you were talking about you'd know that savers, except for precious few snippets of time, don't beat inflation.
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Old 08-30-2013, 15:53   #98
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If you had any idea what you were talking about you'd know that savers, except for precious few snippets of time, don't beat inflation.
That is exactly my point. Savers get killed by inflation. And they get killed because the store of value function and medium of exchange functions are both US dollar based.

Under a Freegold system, they are bifurcated. Paper gold is eliminated and when currencies inflate, gold rises in value to keep up with inflation. That is the beauty of that system. It actually rewards savers. Investors still get to invest, banks still get to lend, debtors still get to borrow, but savers are rewarded rather than punished for saving. That is a fair system. Any system that punishes savers is not fair.

So it is you that don't know what you are talking about. Our current system forces everyone to become a speculator to keep up with inflation and Wall Street is the Casino. Risk is mis-priced and capital is mis-allocated and you end up with the mess we now. And if you don't think we have a mess, you are clueless.
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Old 08-30-2013, 15:53   #99
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Dude, you are a 5150 candidate.
Just because I'm crazy, doesn't mean I'm wrong.
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Old 08-30-2013, 16:04   #100
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Which happens first -

Houston Astros win the world series or gold goes above $50K? Its a toss up!

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