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Old 08-28-2013, 15:51   #151
Panzergrenadier1979
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Kind of exactly my point. Of course the LEOs took him down -- and good on them. But they did so only because a plain old ordinary citizen tipped them off.

My broader point is that herding the populace into their homes and telling them to stay there until otherwise authorized is a LOUSY way to find a bad guy. Indeed, in the case of Boston, it was NOT the technique that lead to the guy's arrest. I posted in direct response to Kilo's heated defense of a tactic that was not only an offense to liberty (yeah, I know, who cares) but also DOES NOT WORK WELL.

No less person than Robert Peel, founder of London's Metro Police, (they were called Peelers before they were called Bobbies) understood this: "The police are the people and the people are the police."

But this is a notion that is being handily rejected in a new wave of statist authoritarianism -- and all to the bad for all of us. (Radley Balko makes good reading on this topic.)
Ok.

What I hear (read) you saying is this:

Since we know, after the fact, that a citizen would make the discovery of where the surviving bomber was hiding, the police should have done nothing after:

(A) the bombing of the Boston Marathon and

(B) after the murder of MIT Police Officer Sean Collier.

LE should have just carried on with their normal routine; like nothing ever happened???


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Old 08-28-2013, 16:11   #152
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Is that why they fired into the boat over 100 times when the suspect was unarmed? To set off his bombs?
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Old 08-28-2013, 16:20   #153
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Which, again, goes to my point in response to Kilo's defense of the tactics used.

My position isn't anti-cop -- in fact, suggesting I'm anti-cop would be insane to anyone who knows me, my family, my history. The cops didn't screw up by not finding someone who wasn't there. And "cops" didn't set this policy or issue these orders, anyway. But no matter how many cops you send in, there are still going be hundreds of times more average citizens with eyes and ears and a sense of when something isn't where it ought to be -- or when their precious boat has been disturbed.

My point is a simple one -- the lockdown, psuedo-martial law approach, besides being offense to liberty (yeah, I know, who cares) is not effective if the goal is to find a particular suspect. And, in point of fact, was NOT effective in Boston. Honestly, I don't see how that's even up for debate.


(Now, if your purpose is something OTHER than to find the at-large suspect, then lockdown might make some sense.)
The suspect was captured wasn't he? So how wasn't it effective to have the citizens on alert and the area flooded with cops? And it is nice with the comfort of hindsight to say that he had no further bombs or a suicide vest on, but was anyone so sure of that BEFORE he was captured? How many of the critics would have risked their lives to find out for sure?

There is absolutely no way in a situation like this that one individuals rights should take precedent of his neighbor's right to safety. Not in that location and in those circumstances. The people of Boston are simply OK with it because that is their choice. In my neighborhood the likely response would be Sheriff's Deputies driving the roads with the loudspeakers on extolling the residents not to shoot him in the face and make a positive ID difficult if they found him.

Boston is a different kettle of clams and they are conditioned to expect Big Brother to fix things. That is one of the reasons the Founders set up different States for different people. The people that were affected by this have full recourse to seek correction and amend the rules for their local LEAs if they see fit. Let's see if they do it, shall we?
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Old 08-28-2013, 16:26   #154
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Originally Posted by Panzergrenadier1979 View Post
Ok.

What I hear (read) you saying is this:

Since we know, after the fact, that a citizen would make the discovery of where the surviving bomber was hiding, the police should have done nothing after:

(A) the bombing of the Boston Marathon and

(B) after the murder of MIT Police Officer Sean Collier.

LE should have just carried on with their normal routine; like nothing ever happened???


Panzer are you an idiot? Or are you being an ass? Or is that an ill-starred attempt at humor? Those would seem to be the only two choices since your snarky little "summary" of my position is obviously not what I'm saying.

Either way, what you clearly aren't is willing (or perhaps able) to have any sort of intellectually honest discussion like grown-ups have.

So please, carry on without me.
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Old 08-28-2013, 16:31   #155
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. . .
Boston is a different kettle of clams and they are conditioned to expect Big Brother to fix things. That is one of the reasons the Founders set up different States for different people. The people that were affected by this have full recourse to seek correction and amend the rules for their local LEAs if they see fit. Let's see if they do it, shall we?
Well, I dunno. Maybe Bostonians (in what would be the saddest of historical ironies) are now less inclined toward the protection of their civil liberties than are other Americans. Perhaps that's so. I'd submit that those liberties ought to have the same currency everywhere the US Constitution reaches, and that states rights mean only that a state can allow for greater liberty, never that it can impose less. (So indeed, would the 14thA seem to suggest.)

But I certainly won't disagree that people, ultimately and everywhere throughout history, only get to enjoy those rights they are willing to defend from the ever present depredations of tyrants. If you suggest Bostonians are willing to defend less than others, I haven't the data necessary to dispute you.
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Old 08-28-2013, 16:35   #156
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Well, I dunno. Maybe Bostonians (in what would be the saddest of historical ironies) are now less inclined toward the protection of their civil liberties than are other Americans. Perhaps that's so. I'd submit that those liberties ought to have the same currency everywhere the US Constitution reaches, and that states rights mean only that a state can allow for greater liberty, never that it can impose less. (So indeed, would the 14thA seem to suggest.)

But I certainly won't disagree that people, ultimately and everywhere throughout history, only get to enjoy those rights they are willing to defend from the ever present depredations of tyrants. If you suggest Bostonians are willing to defend less than others, I haven't the data necessary to dispute you.
Countrygun is indeed correct, the Nanny State mentality runs deep and wide here.

By my guestimation watching election results over the past 27 some odd years, MA as a whole is about 2/3 lefty and 1/3 conservative.

But Boston houses the highest concentration of Nanny State adherents. I suspect they are remnants of British colony loyalists who still view the state as the supreme being.
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Old 08-28-2013, 16:38   #157
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Countrygun is indeed correct, the Nanny State mentality runs deep and wide here.

By my guestimation watching election results over the past 27 some odd years, MA as a whole is about 2/3 lefty and 1/3 conservative.

But Boston houses the highest concentration of Nanny State adherents. I suspect they are remnants of British colony loyalists who still view the state as the supreme being.

I blame it all on not moving west with expansion and thereby not deepening the gene pool.








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Old 08-28-2013, 16:50   #158
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If you watch the Nova special on PBS about the Boston Bombing you will see early on why the authorities wanted as few people as possible out and about.

How do you find a needle in a haystack?

Would reducing the amount of hay help find it easier?

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Old 08-28-2013, 16:56   #159
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I tried to read through this thread to see if any Bostonians answered, but simply couldn't do it.

Do we have any Bostonians?


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Old 08-28-2013, 17:34   #160
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Well, I dunno. Maybe Bostonians (in what would be the saddest of historical ironies) are now less inclined toward the protection of their civil liberties than are other Americans. Perhaps that's so. I'd submit that those liberties ought to have the same currency everywhere the US Constitution reaches, and that states rights mean only that a state can allow for greater liberty, never that it can impose less. (So indeed, would the 14thA seem to suggest.)

But I certainly won't disagree that people, ultimately and everywhere throughout history, only get to enjoy those rights they are willing to defend from the ever present depredations of tyrants. If you suggest Bostonians are willing to defend less than others, I haven't the data necessary to dispute you.
I must disagree with you on that.

Have you never hear of a "Dry State" or a 'Dry County" ?

States can impose regulations harsher that then Federal Government. They do it all the time.

We see it in various gun control legislation as well.

The Founders were well aware of this and it is why, for instance, in the 1st Amendment, they clearly spelled out Congress specifically and not the Governments of the States. Now later amendment may have muckled things a bit but the BOR was clearly the Founders expressing details they felt were significant.

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Old 08-28-2013, 17:35   #161
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I've never had a badge, but have been in harm's way. I'm trying to understand why they fired into the boat so many times, when no one was shooting at them.
Tenn vs Garner covers this. You may want to read it before your butt hurtedness reaches Maxi Pad status.

Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985)[1], was a case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that under the Fourth Amendment, when a law enforcement officer is pursuing a fleeing suspect, he or she may use deadly force only to prevent escape if the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.

He was ordered to surrender, he did not ,his prior acts in the police chase gave them ample probable cause to believe he was still a significant threat.

No need for them to wait for him to shoot or detonate something.. And it's directed fire and its not just fire at will. If you educated yourself you might not look so foolish in these discussions.

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Old 08-28-2013, 18:07   #162
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Really? Why do you say it will be a doozy?
Because of the scale and realism involved.
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Old 08-28-2013, 18:11   #163
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Tenn vs Garner covers this. You may want to read it before your butt hurtedness reaches Maxi Pad status.

Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985)[1], was a case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that under the Fourth Amendment, when a law enforcement officer is pursuing a fleeing suspect, he or she may use deadly force only to prevent escape if the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.

He was ordered to surrender, he did not ,his prior acts in the police chase gave them ample probable cause to believe he was still a significant threat.

No need for them to wait for him to shoot or detonate something.. And it's directed fire and its not just fire at will. If you educated yourself you might not look so foolish in these discussions.

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No weapon seen on FLIR. Camera on the boom used to rip the boat cover.
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Old 08-28-2013, 18:43   #164
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No weapon seen on FLIR. Camera on the boom used to rip the boat cover.
You are just too ignorant to waste time with.




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Old 08-28-2013, 18:50   #165
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Countrygun is indeed correct, the Nanny State mentality runs deep and wide here.

By my guestimation watching election results over the past 27 some odd years, MA as a whole is about 2/3 lefty and 1/3 conservative.

But Boston houses the highest concentration of Nanny State adherents. I suspect they are remnants of British colony loyalists who still view the state as the supreme being.
Yeah.

Which state repealed its seat belt law by popular vote? Granted it was 30 years ago, but it was Mass. What state was all up in arms over a black Hahvud prof getting stopped by a cop in front of his house 5 years ago? Anyone remember the beer-in-the-garden summit?
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Old 08-28-2013, 18:54   #166
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You are just too ignorant to waste time with.
Noted. Why?
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Old 08-28-2013, 18:59   #167
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Tenn vs Garner covers this. You may want to read it before your butt hurtedness reaches Maxi Pad status.

Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985)[1], was a case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that under the Fourth Amendment, when a law enforcement officer is pursuing a fleeing suspect, he or she may use deadly force only to prevent escape if the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.

He was ordered to surrender, he did not ,his prior acts in the police chase gave them ample probable cause to believe he was still a significant threat.

No need for them to wait for him to shoot or detonate something.. And it's directed fire and its not just fire at will. If you educated yourself you might not look so foolish in these discussions.

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Why? He's never needed to know anything up until now. I say he should go with what's gotten him all his credibility to this point.






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Old 08-28-2013, 19:00   #168
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Don't get flustered OP.

I've read this entire thread. You're facing the same 3-5 people whose egos are the size of blimps, and love to call people ignorant to make themselves feel better.

This forum is like a children's play-ground, just a bunch of losers running around calling other people names. There's a juvenile "hive" mentality here you just have to come to grips with. Once a generalized opinion is found through trial and insulting error, everyone jumps on the group-think band-wagon, and a GNG beat-down ensues. Not many folks here can think for themselves once the hive mentality takes over, they just follow the line.

FWIW, I think that the people of Boston are so liberal that they don't even recognize what happened as being wrong. By-and-large, they're sheeple who have been conditioned to bow to "authority" and not question it. And anyone that wants to dispute that the neighborhood was put on lock-down, and that searches without warrants were done, is nothing but a retard.

And those that think that what happened is somehow o.k.? Christ, I don't even know what to say......just more sheeple toeing the line.

And yes, if I lived in that neighborhood when that went down, and LEOs tried to force their way into my home to conduct a search, things would have gotten ugly. And I do believe that law-suits are going to fly in the next year or so. Right now, the whole thing was so much of a positive for LEOs, a smart lawyer will let things go for awhile, until the LEO hero-worshiping is well and truly over.
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Old 08-28-2013, 19:03   #169
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You are just too ignorant to waste time with.




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Yeah because FLiR can see through bodies, ohhh wait a minute it can't ...the ignorance continues.

Again you may want to educate yourself on the limitations and tactical usage of the technology YOU bring up. It will save you from looking foolish.....wow déjà vu.


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Old 08-28-2013, 19:05   #170
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Don't get flustered OP.

I've read this entire thread. You're facing the same 3-5 people whose egos are the size of blimps, and love to call people ignorant to make themselves feel better.

This forum is like a children's play-ground, just a bunch of losers running around calling other people names.

FWIW, I think that the people of Boston are so liberal that they don't even recognize what happened as being wrong. And anyone that wants to dispute that the neighborhood was put on lock-down, and that searches without warrants were done, is nothing but a retard.

But, sadly, that's pretty much average here.
Because you would have done a much better job of not letting him escape.


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Old 08-28-2013, 19:07   #171
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Don't get flustered OP.

I've read this entire thread. You're facing the same 3-5 people whose egos are the size of blimps, and love to call people ignorant to make themselves feel better.

This forum is like a children's play-ground, just a bunch of losers running around calling other people names.

FWIW, I think that the people of Boston are so liberal that they don't even recognize what happened as being wrong. And anyone that wants to dispute that the neighborhood was put on lock-down, and that searches without warrants were done, is nothing but a retard.

But, sadly, that's pretty much average here.
Gee with all the insults and name calling I am amazed you had the time to try, fail but try, to make a point.

I don't remember anyone saying that warrantless searches weren't conducted. Point that person out to me please.

Exigent circumstances preclude the need for a warrant.

I must say that you do have a case against the person that is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to read and post here.
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Old 08-28-2013, 19:16   #172
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Good point about Tenn v Garner.

He was probably eligible for a bullet in the back should he decide to flee due to the significant danger to the community. No perimeter is 100%.
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Old 08-28-2013, 19:17   #173
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Because you would have done a much better job of not letting him escape.


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What in the sam hell are you talking about?
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Old 08-28-2013, 19:20   #174
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Gee with all the insults and name calling I am amazed you had the time to try, fail but try, to make a point.

I don't remember anyone saying that warrantless searches weren't conducted. Point that person out to me please.

Exigent circumstances preclude the need for a warrant.

I must say that you do have a case against the person that is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to read and post here.
Please define "exigent circumstances".

Sounds like a load of horse **** where LEOs can do what they want, and then call it what they want after the fact.

You might accept that, but I don't. I don't hero-worship LEOs, and I expect them to be held accountable like every other citizen for their actions.

Nice insults though.....typical horse-poop.
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Old 08-28-2013, 19:22   #175
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Please define "exigent circumstances".

Sounds like a load of horse **** where LEOs can do what they want, and then call it what they want after the fact.

You might accept that, but I don't. I don't hero-worship LEOs, and I expect them to be held accountable like every other citizen for their actions.
So then you can't answer my question with an example?
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