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Old 08-27-2013, 19:57   #126
Patchman
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Originally Posted by racerford View Post
The lawsuits (if any) may come later. Normally there is a two year statute of limitations on filing a lawsuit. Often they get filed right before that. It gives them more time to identify more people to sue.
And also more time to polish the "woe is me" story.
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Old 08-27-2013, 21:28   #127
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So you agree with my assessment of overkill! I never would have thought we would agree on anything.
His lack of comment does not imply agreement. Bad technique.

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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
My cousin has a friend who's on some joint red cross relief taskforce up that way and was there after the manhunt. What I found interesting is that of the dozens of homeowners who were led out of their houses at gunpoint, four are still unaccounted for. Their families inquired and the local police just made out missing person reports.

I have no personal knowledge if any of this is true. But I don't see why it shouldn't be.
I've heard that space ships come down and humanoid beings perform butthurt probes on people. I have no personal knowledge, but I don't see why it shouldn't be.

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Originally Posted by Nalapombu View Post
Hey KB, I ASKED some SIMPLE questions. I made no accusations toward anyone. I didn't accuse cops of doing ANYTHING wrong. I was using terms that were REPORTED all FRIGGING NIGHT LONG ON TV to describe what was happening. Did you not SEE the news, or hear it where CNN, FOX, ABC, NBC, CBS, the BBC and every other media outlet in the world was referring to the city of Boston as being in LOCKDOWN, UNDER SEIGE, Shelter in Place, residents warned to STAY IN, DO NOT COME OUT O YOUR HOUSES, DON'T GO TO WORK, National Guard May Be Deployed, etc..
I could go on with more examples, you want me to?

If you have that kind of reaction to non-accusatory questions about historic events in a modern American city, it makes me wonder what would've happened if I had seen you on the street and dared ask you one of these questions. It makes me wonder why you even take that tone towards me for even broaching the subject.
As far as I can tell I don't even know you for you to be pulling an attitude like that.

I was just looking for information as to what happened that night and instead you turn it into GOD knows what? I should've known.
My bad for even asking.

Nalajr

P.S. KB, you asked so I'll tell you. I was here, in Houston, in front of my laptop and the TV, on the couch when the hunt was taking place. I guess you can now harangue me for being a lazy turd, good-for-nothing, cop hater, or whatever you have going around in your mind that you think I am. If that makes you feel better.
Yeah, I would let those news words go over your head. We live in the snow belt. You should see the scary words they pull out if we even get a CHANCE of snow around here. And as mentioned several pages ago, when the Gov's order to shut down the highways in the Feb storm came, "lockdown" was used a lot. Lol
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Old 08-28-2013, 04:37   #128
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
I.

Am.

Not.

Missing persons police reports are public records.
Which neither you nor your cousin, who was a "red cross volunteer" have seen.

I once heard this dude who went to Washington saw a big tall hairy creature with huge feet.

I can only assume you are trying to make eyelikeglasses seem more reasonable by demonstrating an even worse "conspiracy rumor."
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Old 08-28-2013, 04:51   #129
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Old 08-28-2013, 05:22   #130
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Awwww, jeez.

Search function down again?
Explosion at end of Marathon

Boston Marathon Bombing blame game begins

Gunshots reported at MIT

Watertown search videos are surfacing!

What would be the "correct" police manhunt in Boston.
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Old 08-28-2013, 05:47   #131
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I was just thinking about how gullible you'd have to be, to believe that people were taken away by the police in a major city and never heard from again, but both the liberal and conservative media, as well as everybody in government and the families of the missing conspired to keep it secret.
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Old 08-28-2013, 05:56   #132
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I was just thinking about how gullible you'd have to be, to believe that people were taken away by the police in a major city and never heard from again, but both the liberal and conservative media, as well as everybody in government and the families of the missing conspired to keep it secret.

NDAA
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Old 08-28-2013, 06:06   #133
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As usual, there has been some enjoyable if disturbing discourse here.
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Old 08-28-2013, 06:43   #134
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...and many people who had their homes searched did have their rights violated.
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Originally Posted by Bruce M View Post
How many of these "many" people felt their rights were violated have filed complaints and/or law suits?
I have not heard of a single one. Have you heard of any, BarkinDog?
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The number of police in that area was ridiculous overkill, they were tripping over each other and ...
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How many police officers would be an appropriate number in your opinion? Have you ever particpated in an arrest/perimeter/search in a civilian law enforcement capacity? If so kindly share your qualifications.
I'm interested in those answers, too.
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Old 08-28-2013, 07:06   #135
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
My cousin has a friend who's on some joint red cross relief taskforce up that way and was there after the manhunt. What I found interesting is that of the dozens of homeowners who were led out of their houses at gunpoint, four are still unaccounted for. Their families inquired and the local police just made out missing person reports.

I have no personal knowledge if any of this is true. But I don't see why it shouldn't be.
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I hope you are just messing with me. That is kinda scary.
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
I.

Am.

Not.

Missing persons police reports are public records.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bren View Post
Which neither you nor your cousin, who was a "red cross volunteer" have seen.

I once heard this dude who went to Washington saw a big tall hairy creature with huge feet.

I can only assume you are trying to make eyelikeglasses seem more reasonable by demonstrating an even worse "conspiracy rumor."
Wow, some of y'all are too....

Patchman, is this how it went?
  • A Red Cross Relief Task Force Volunteer was working in the aftermath of the manhunt, not during, but after it was over.
  • This Red Cross worker is a friend of your cousin.
  • You find it interesting that of the dozens of homeowners led out of their homes at gunpoint, four are still unaccounted for.
  • Their families went to the local police.
  • The police took missing persons reports.
  • You have no personal knowledge of any of that information.
  • You say that missing person reports are public information if anyone wants to check on the four missing people.

You do not say that the Red Cross Volunteer told your cousin.

You do not say your cousin told you.

You do not say how you know four people are still unaccounted for four months after the manhunt.

I am leaning toward Bren's theory...
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Old 08-28-2013, 09:04   #136
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Hey KB, I ASKED some SIMPLE questions. I made no accusations toward anyone. I didn't accuse cops of doing ANYTHING wrong. I was using terms that were REPORTED all FRIGGING NIGHT LONG ON TV to describe what was happening. Did you not SEE the news, or hear it where CNN, FOX, ABC, NBC, CBS, the BBC and every other media outlet in the world was referring to the city of Boston as being in LOCKDOWN, UNDER SEIGE, Shelter in Place, residents warned to STAY IN, DO NOT COME OUT O YOUR HOUSES, DON'T GO TO WORK, National Guard May Be Deployed, etc..
I could go on with more examples, you want me to?

If you have that kind of reaction to non-accusatory questions about historic events in a modern American city, it makes me wonder what would've happened if I had seen you on the street and dared ask you one of these questions. It makes me wonder why you even take that tone towards me for even broaching the subject.
As far as I can tell I don't even know you for you to be pulling an attitude like that.

I was just looking for information as to what happened that night and instead you turn it into GOD knows what? I should've known.
My bad for even asking.

Nalajr

P.S. KB, you asked so I'll tell you. I was here, in Houston, in front of my laptop and the TV, on the couch when the hunt was taking place. I guess you can now harangue me for being a lazy turd, good-for-nothing, cop hater, or whatever you have going around in your mind that you think I am. If that makes you feel better.
OP, let me the first to apologize to you. I re-read my first post and it did come across rather abrasive. I did not however have any preconceived notions of you as anything more than somebody posting something on an online gun forum. I simply was having a bad day anyway and probably did not get my message across in the most respectful manner towards you.

Again, for what it is worth, I am genuinely sorry.
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:54   #137
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I was just thinking about how gullible you'd have to be, to believe that people were taken away by the police in a major city and never heard from again, but both the liberal and conservative media, as well as everybody in government and the families of the missing conspired to keep it secret.
Oh think about for a while. The families must include children, and is it believable that children haven't told anybody a relative is suddenly gone? Schoolmates, maybe a teacher now have to be sworn to secrecy. How about neighbors noticing? Relatives from out of state ? Co-workers?
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Old 08-28-2013, 12:34   #138
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Great job on not getting this locked gang! Be back in a few.
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Old 08-28-2013, 12:36   #139
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Or in this case I suspect some non-leo is butthurt and had gone to file a complaint, on the pretext he's retiring for the night.
A swing and a miss!

ETA: I'm immature and couldn't resist.

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Old 08-28-2013, 12:44   #140
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.. . .I fully support what the LEOs did in Boston and I am damn proud of them for catching the SOB . . . . .
Well, just the tiniest little detail to point out here. That it wasn't LEO's who found him, but a citizen who violated the curfew by stepping out of his house to smoke a cigarette.

But, meh, facts-schmacts, amiright?

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. . . .
OP, I ask you if you would have thought the police actions were appropriate if one of the people blown to hell by a bomb was a family member of your's?
. . . .
An EXCELLENT point since it is well known that we judge public policy and the exercise of government authority by polling the angry victims of crime, not by reference to some silly Constitution or set of laws or anything pansy-ass like that.
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Old 08-28-2013, 12:50   #141
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Well, just the tiniest little detail to point out here. That it wasn't LEO's who found him, but a citizen who violated the curfew by stepping out of his house to smoke a cigarette.

But, meh, facts-schmacts, amiright?
So since a citizen called 9-1-1 to say "send the officers back" because he noticed blood stains on the side of his boat that LE had already searched earlier they somehow didn't catch him?
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Old 08-28-2013, 13:57   #142
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http://www.spp.org/publications/13%2...13%29%20V2.pdf

NERC will host GridEx 2013 on November 13-14, 2013
• North American wide distributed-play exercise
• Executive “policy trigger” table top exercise on 14 November

This drill seems like it will be a doozy!
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Old 08-28-2013, 14:18   #143
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Well, just the tiniest little detail to point out here. That it wasn't LEO's who found him, but a citizen who violated the curfew by stepping out of his house to smoke a cigarette.

But, meh, facts-schmacts, amiright?
So, by using this logic, the fire department isn't responsible for putting out a fire since the homeowners were the ones that called 911 after discovering that their home was on fire and not the firefighters?

For crying out loud, my PD makes daily posts on our website imploring the public to call with information regarding persons of interests and unsolved crimes. A lead is a lead irregardless of where it originates. It's called good police work.

The notion of a major felony case being solved due to the information provided by an alert citizen is not a new concept.....to some of us at least.
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Old 08-28-2013, 14:59   #144
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So, by using this logic, the fire department isn't responsible for putting out a fire since the homeowners were the ones that called 911 after discovering that their home was on fire and not the firefighters?

For crying out loud, my PD makes daily posts on our website imploring the public to call with information regarding persons of interests and unsolved crimes. A lead is a lead irregardless of where it originates. It's called good police work.

The notion of a major felony case being solved due to the information provided by an alert citizen is not a new concept.....to some of us at least.
Kind of exactly my point. Of course the LEOs took him down -- and good on them. But they did so only because a plain old ordinary citizen tipped them off.

My broader point is that herding the populace into their homes and telling them to stay there until otherwise authorized is a LOUSY way to find a bad guy. Indeed, in the case of Boston, it was NOT the technique that lead to the guy's arrest. I posted in direct response to Kilo's heated defense of a tactic that was not only an offense to liberty (yeah, I know, who cares) but also DOES NOT WORK WELL.

No less person than Robert Peel, founder of London's Metro Police, (they were called Peelers before they were called Bobbies) understood this: "The police are the people and the people are the police."

But this is a notion that is being handily rejected in a new wave of statist authoritarianism -- and all to the bad for all of us. (Radley Balko makes good reading on this topic.)
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Old 08-28-2013, 15:00   #145
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So since a citizen called 9-1-1 to say "send the officers back" because he noticed blood stains on the side of his boat that LE had already searched earlier they somehow didn't catch him?
See my response above to Panzer.
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Old 08-28-2013, 15:16   #146
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Kind of exactly my point. Of course the LEOs took him down -- and good on them. But they did so only because a plain old ordinary citizen tipped them off.

My broader point is that herding the populace into their homes and telling them to stay there until otherwise authorized is a LOUSY way to find a bad guy. Indeed, in the case of Boston, it was NOT the technique that lead to the guy's arrest. I posted in direct response to Kilo's heated defense of a tactic that was not only an offense to liberty (yeah, I know, who cares) but also DOES NOT WORK WELL.

No less person than Robert Peel, founder of London's Metro Police, (they were called Peelers before they were called Bobbies) understood this: "The police are the people and the people are the police."

But this is a notion that is being handily rejected in a new wave of statist authoritarianism -- and all to the bad for all of us. (Radley Balko makes good reading on this topic.)

Let me point out that the suspect was most assuredly not in the boat when the police checked earlier. The owner of the boat was a bit OCDish and had the boat wrapped in shrink wrap. It was that being disturbed that tipped the owner.

I do not think that the police have seized any authority or position that was not abdicated by the people themselves. The no longer expect to "get involved" and in fact they condemn others who do. Remember a guy who got castigated BY HIS FELLOW CITIZENS for "getting out of his vehicle"? Certainly condemn this simple human act is a sign that the society has voluntarily passed the torch to their employees. "Watch and report but don't move a muscle" is a pretty clear statement about what effort society is willing to go to on its own behalf.

There is no greater political "ism" behind this, it is simply a society that has become fat, soft and wishes to be waited on and doesn't like the actions of those who make them face their condition.

And, uh BTW, they did catch the bad guy because something they had checked was disturbed. How many people from that city have responded here on a gun forum? How many useless gun restrictions have the begged for in that State? Do you think people like that are going to be proactive in their own defense?

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Old 08-28-2013, 15:20   #147
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http://www.spp.org/publications/13%2...13%29%20V2.pdf

NERC will host GridEx 2013 on November 13-14, 2013
• North American wide distributed-play exercise
• Executive “policy trigger” table top exercise on 14 November

This drill seems like it will be a doozy!
Really? Why do you say it will be a doozy?
Quote:
GridEx II Objectives
  1. Validate the current readiness of the electricity industry to respond to a security incident, incorporating lessons learned from GridEx 2011

  2. Assess, test, and validate existing command, control and communication plans and tools for NERC and its stakeholders

  3. Identify potential improvements in physical and cybersecurity plans, programs, and responder skills

  4. Evaluate senior leadership policy doctrine and triggers in response to major grid reliability issues
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Old 08-28-2013, 15:36   #148
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An EXCELLENT point since it is well known that we judge public policy and the exercise of government authority by polling the angry victims of crime, not by reference to some silly Constitution or set of laws or anything pansy-ass like that.
The US Constitution is not, nor was it intended to be, a suicide pact. It is a perversion to assume that the framers of the USC believed that their experience under the tyranny of the British Crown would have them construct a document freeing Americans from any and all responsibility or decency. Is any form of government, (local, state, federal), operating under sworn oath to uphold the USC, offensive to you and thus unconstitutional by its mere existence? If so, then let American-hating muslims bomb as they please.

The Boston Bombing and subsequent murder of an LEO provided exigent circumstances. The bombers had to be found and stopped. Now. Not tomorrow. Not with you permission. Now. Try beating your wife in the privacy & comfort of your home; Her screams, in my presence = your front door coming off its hinges without a warrant, nor an apology, and your opinion on the matter falling on deaf ears as you get cuffed on the floor of your kitchen.

I very much doubt George Washington or Thomas Jefferson would have agreed to allow the Tsarnaey brothers to simply waltz out town. What I am certain of, however, is that your opinion of their actions wouldn't have mattered to them in the slightest; much like the LEOs involved in the Boston manhunt.

With the oppression that Obamacare is about to unleash on American businesses and way of life, why pick-on American LEOs dealing with a dangerous and fluid situation that they dealt with as events occurred? Can you spare a little credit for their efforts? Don't we all have much more pressing political issues at the present? Certainly you must be aware that the cops on this FIREARMS forum are pretty much all gun owners with as much liberty to lose as you?

Know your enemy. It ain't the cops running TOWARDS the exploding bombs......
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Old 08-28-2013, 15:42   #149
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Let me point out that the suspect was most assuredly not in the boat when the police checked earlier. The owner of the boat was a bit OCDish and had the boat wrapped in shrink wrap. It was that being disturbed that tipped the owner. . . .
Which, again, goes to my point in response to Kilo's defense of the tactics used.

My position isn't anti-cop -- in fact, suggesting I'm anti-cop would be insane to anyone who knows me, my family, my history. The cops didn't screw up by not finding someone who wasn't there. And "cops" didn't set this policy or issue these orders, anyway. But no matter how many cops you send in, there are still going be hundreds of times more average citizens with eyes and ears and a sense of when something isn't where it ought to be -- or when their precious boat has been disturbed.

My point is a simple one -- the lockdown, psuedo-martial law approach, besides being offense to liberty (yeah, I know, who cares) is not effective if the goal is to find a particular suspect. And, in point of fact, was NOT effective in Boston. Honestly, I don't see how that's even up for debate.


(Now, if your purpose is something OTHER than to find the at-large suspect, then lockdown might make some sense.)

Last edited by tslex; 08-28-2013 at 15:44..
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Old 08-28-2013, 15:48   #150
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The US Constitution is not, nor was it intended to be, a suicide pact.

. . . .


. . . .
Know your enemy. It ain't the cops running TOWARDS the exploding bombs......
i get that it's fun to knock down straw men. They topple so easily.

But virtually none of what you said has anything to do with what I said, nor anything to do with anything I believe.

I responded, very particularly, to two aspects of Kilo's angry defense of a tactic that, in the end, was not only offensive to liberty (yeah, I know, who cares) but DID NOT WORK.

If you think "exigent circumstances" authorize the imposition of a curfew on an entire populace, then I'd suggest your reading of the law is.. . . flawed.

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