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Old 08-22-2013, 13:59   #1
jeremy1
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40S&W and longshot

Does anyone load 40 with longshot and 180 grain pills? I tried some as I have lots that I use for 9 mm. I kept the charge at 5 grains which is what I use in 9 mm with 124 grain projectiles This is well under the minimum of 6.3 grains listed on the hodgson website.

The recoil was much more than some factory ammo I had. Seems real hot. It was very accurate though.

Has anyone used this load?
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Old 08-22-2013, 18:20   #2
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Quote:
Has anyone used this load?
Nope, I don't go below Minimum. IMO Minimum is there for a reason just as Maximum is there for a reason.

Carry On.
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Old 08-24-2013, 04:36   #3
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Longshot was my first 40SW powder,,,,works well but I landed on PowerPistol for all my Semi Auto loads now
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Old 08-24-2013, 07:36   #4
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I've loaded 40 in the past with Longshot, it works best with mid to high loads. If you do run it low the muzzle flash gets noticeably larger. My guess if going below minimum you will get large fireballs and the gun will not cycle, reliably. Without having to reduce the spring weight.

If you are wanting lower speeds out of the gun, you might have to go with a different powder. Something faster on the burn chart. Like from Hodgdon HP38, or Universal.

Not knowing the intent of the load, makes it difficult to give suggestions. But going below minimum is not worth it in my opinion. Better powders to do that with.
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Old 08-24-2013, 08:42   #5
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Originally Posted by steve4102 View Post
Nope, I don't go below Minimum. IMO Minimum is there for a reason just as Maximum is there for a reason.

Carry On.
why?

While longshot is the wrong powder for minimum loads thousands of competition shooters shoot below book minimum all the time.
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Old 08-24-2013, 23:17   #6
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why?

While longshot is the wrong powder for minimum loads thousands of competition shooters shoot below book minimum all the time.
Without knowing the experience of the OP, it's best to advise to just "keep it between the trees" so to speak.
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Old 08-25-2013, 05:35   #7
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Reduced loads and Longshot do not go together well. Longshot is made for high velocity loads. If you want reduced velocity loads that function well, go with a much faster burning powder like Clays.
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Old 08-25-2013, 12:21   #8
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I basically ran some trial loads using the same powder and charge weight as my 9mm 124 grain loads. I loaded 10 just to see. I wanted to see if I could use the same charge with the same powder in 9mm and 40. I figured that this would be a very light load, and if anything would not cycle. I didn't think that going under minimum charge would still have this much snap. There was not a lot of empty space in the casing so I wasn't too worried about pressure spikes

I have been using a 180 grain projectile with bluedot that is very mild and accurate. I would like to use bluedot but cant find any. I have partial pounds of about 6 different powders but I need to find a mild load for the 2000 180 grain projectiles sitting on my bench.
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Old 08-25-2013, 15:15   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy1 View Post
I basically ran some trial loads using the same powder and charge weight as my 9mm 124 grain loads. I loaded 10 just to see. I wanted to see if I could use the same charge with the same powder in 9mm and 40. I figured that this would be a very light load, and if anything would not cycle. I didn't think that going under minimum charge would still have this much snap. There was not a lot of empty space in the casing so I wasn't too worried about pressure spikes

I have been using a 180 grain projectile with bluedot that is very mild and accurate. I would like to use bluedot but cant find any. I have partial pounds of about 6 different powders but I need to find a mild load for the 2000 180 grain projectiles sitting on my bench.
Well LongShot is one of the those powders that seems to have a fairly linear power curve. Meaning for a wider range of weight in the charge, the pressure doesn't immediately spike on the high end and drop off at the low end. Power Pistol does that too. Most powders are more narrow in its usage range for a given cartridge type.

You mentioned Bluedot and mild in the same sentence. That would be a powder I would use for higher velocities in the charge, It is about the same burn rate as Longshot.

You say mild and 40 S&W they don't go together either, I can say that because I've shot the 40 since it came out. But it sounds like you want a softer shooting 40 load. You say you have 6 powders. What are they? The best choice is going to be most likely the fastest burning powder of what you own and something we have load data for, that is published for 180 grain bullets. Do you have an idea on how fast or what the load is for? Just practice shooting? Meeting major in Power factor? Meeting minor in Power factor? emulating a defense load?
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Old 08-25-2013, 15:28   #10
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If you get the load up to where it belongs (6+ grains), you will see that the velocity is quite high. For example, a Federal LE load with a 180 gr JHP only runs 990 fps.

Rule of thumb: slow powder -> high velocity, heavy loads; fast powder -> lower velocity, target loads.

You are using one of the slowest powders on the planet for pistol. #52 on the chart:
http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

You're very nearly into the realm of rifle powders.

If you want light loads, try to get farther up the list. Maybe PB or HP38. The very fast powders, like Titegroup, require extra attention to detail. A little bit of a very fast powder goes a very long way.

ETA: I use 5.7 gr of WSF for a very nice load with a 180 gr JHP. It very nearly matches that LEO load above.

I know this doesn't allow you to use the same charge for 9mm and .40 S&W but is this really a worthwhile goal?

Richard
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Old 08-25-2013, 21:12   #11
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Thanks to all. There is a lot of valuable information in this thread. I was originally thinking about going to WSF due to availability. What I find frustrating is that I can't seem to find the powders that I want. I was thinking about buying WSF previously, and I can get it. It sounds like a good powder for the 40 loads that I am looking for.

I am only using the 40 for paper at the range for now. I may get back in to shooting sports but for now I like to take it out for range visits.
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Old 08-26-2013, 05:50   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy1 View Post
Thanks to all. There is a lot of valuable information in this thread. I was originally thinking about going to WSF due to availability. What I find frustrating is that I can't seem to find the powders that I want. I was thinking about buying WSF previously, and I can get it. It sounds like a good powder for the 40 loads that I am looking for.

I am only using the 40 for paper at the range for now. I may get back in to shooting sports but for now I like to take it out for range visits.
You won't be disappointed with WSF in 9mm,40 S&W or 45 acp. 90% of my semi auto pistol loading is accomplished with WST and WSF and has been for years. SJ 40
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Old 08-26-2013, 07:13   #13
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I am only using the 40 for paper at the range for now. I may get back in to shooting sports but for now I like to take it out for range visits.
For IDPA 'Major' you need a power factor of 180 and even from a short barrel P229 the 5.7 gr WSF with 180 gr JHP will make the numbers. Mine chronograph at 930 fps.

Power factor is bullet weight in grains times velocity in feet per second, all divided by 1000

So, 180*930/1000 = 167.4 - good enough.

It turns out that chronograph testing at matches is supposed to be done with a gun having the maximum barrel length for the division and that would be something like a P226. Velocity and power factor would both increase somewhat.

It's a place to start...

Richard
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Old 08-26-2013, 08:10   #14
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Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
For IDPA 'Major' you need a power factor of 180 and even from a short barrel P229 the 5.7 gr WSF with 180 gr JHP will make the numbers. Mine chronograph at 930 fps.

Power factor is bullet weight in grains times velocity in feet per second, all divided by 1000

So, 180*930/1000 = 167.4 - good enough.


Richard
I think you mean 165 for Major.

167.4 is good enough for a local match but at a major match that maters most people shoot for 170 or a little better.
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Old 08-26-2013, 08:21   #15
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I think you mean 165 for Major.
Yup! A typo interchanging power factor and bullet weight.

Quote:
167.4 is good enough for a local match but at a major match that maters most people shoot for 170 or a little better.
It should come out a little higher with a longer barrel. I didn't test that because I only have P229s in .40. It's my understanding that the test is done with a maximum barrel, not MY barrel. Is that correct?

If it IS some other, maximum length, barrel, how does the velocity compare between Glock barrels and, say, Sig barrels? Does the style of rifling matter?

Worst case, add a wee bit more powder.

Richard
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Old 08-26-2013, 08:26   #16
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It should come out a little higher with a longer barrel. I didn't test that because I only have P229s in .40. It's my understanding that the test is done with a maximum barrel, not MY barrel. Is that correct?

If it IS some other, maximum length, barrel, how does the velocity compare between Glock barrels and, say, Sig barrels? Does the style of rifling matter?

Worst case, add a wee bit more powder.

Richard
I don't know. IDPA is weird. I can't imagine not testing the ammo out of the shooters own gun. Not that they do that. Not really sure.
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Old 08-26-2013, 10:31   #17
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I don't know. IDPA is weird. I can't imagine not testing the ammo out of the shooters own gun. Not that they do that. Not really sure.
Hey SARDG, you'll have the answer!

Richard
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Old 08-26-2013, 11:19   #18
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Hiding behind a wall while shooting is weird. I know it's better but I don't care enough.
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Old 08-27-2013, 14:59   #19
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First, what is this "Major" in IDPA? I'm not aware of any distinction for IDPA. There is for USPSA.

Richard, in answer to your question about the difference in velocity between a polygonal barrel (Glock, H&K) and standard lands/grooves barrel (Sig). My own chronograph testing between a G19 and P226 showed the shorter barreled G19 with the polygonal barrel had slightly higher velocities than the P226 with the same load.

115gr Zero FMJ over 4.5gr BE
P226 - 1091 fps avg
G19 - 1129 fps avg

124gr Rem GS over 5.0gr Unique
P226 - 1038 fps avg
G19 - 1061 fps avg

147gr Zero JHP over 4.0gr WSF
P226 - 868 fps avg
P228 - 859 fps avg
P239 - 859 fps avg
G19 - 904 fps avg

The chronograph data that I have for other bullet/powder combinations show nar about the same spread - that a polygonal barrel adds 20-30fps to the load velocity.

So, based on my findings, if you're shooting a lands/grooves firearm and need to boost your fps at a match, have the loads tested in someone's Glock or H&K. If you're struggling to make PF in a Glock, don't use a standard rifling barrel thinking that you're going to get some help.
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Old 08-27-2013, 15:35   #20
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[QUOTE=PCJim;20574888]First, what is this "Major" in IDPA? I'm not aware of any distinction for IDPA. There is for USPSA.

'Major' and 'minor' are probably not the proper terminology for IDPA although they are for IPSC or USPSA.

There are 'Power Floor' values for the various divisions in IDPA and for Standard Service Pistol (SSP), Enhanced Service Pistol (ESP) and Standard Service Revolver (SSR), that value is 125,000 (what I would call 'minor'). For Custom Defensive Pistol (CDP) and Enhanced Service Revolver (ESR), the value is 165,000 (what I would call 'major'). For convenience, divide those values by 1000 and call them Power Factor (125 or 165).

Now, a .40 S&W could run in both SSP and CDP but there would be no point in shooting 165 PF ammo in SSP and 125 PF wouldn't qualify for CDP. The same would be true if somebody wanted to shoot a G21SF (.45 ACP) in SSP - they could download considerably as long as the gun would function. I can't even imagine a 230 gr .45 ACP at 550 fps but the recoil would be LIGHT! The problem would be in getting the gun to cycle as fast as a 9mm.

It has been a long time since I shot in competition and I may never do it again. Nevertheless, I like to keep the power factor requirements in mind when I select a load.

Richard
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