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Old 08-12-2013, 17:32   #1
agtman
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G&A 10mm article, ...

Hadn't looked over the gun rags for a while, excepting the quick thumb-through I gave an issue of Rifle magazine a while back.

Today I was in an area Meijer store and I came across the Sept. 2013 issue of Guns & Ammo and just randomly picked it up to have a look.

This issue contains two, literally, back-to-back articles touching on the 10mm AUTO.

The first is a smarmy, uninformed piece by the resident G&A 10-hater talking-up the .40 at the expense of the 10mm. It's all smack on our round, apparently dead (again), while the .40 gets pumped like it's god's gift to the U.S. shooting community, L.E., etc.

Okay, whatever.

The second is a "We Shoot" G&A staff article on the 10mm Gen 4 G20. It's actually a credible write-up and is excellent on the gun itself, although the writer apparently never heard of Underwood, DT or Corbon ammo. He did hear about BB 220gn HC loads and Hornady's 165gn 10mm ammo (@ somewhere around 1200fps), both of which he put through the Gen 4 G20. No malfs whatsoever and he got great accuracy, as 10Ringers would expect. Plus his overall comments on handling, etc., were positive.

Notwithstanding the limited ammo selection used in his review, the only "downside" I noticed in his closing comments - and it's more of a quibble really - is the writer's extremely narrow view of the role of a 15+1 10mm G20. He sees it as limited to either (1) a "back-up" sidearm for hunting or (2) as an "outdoor" gun when camping, hiking, or working on horseback on the back-40 of a farm out west, etc. Neither the gun nor its cartridge, from his comments, would be his first choice for CCW, duty use, or home defense.

That, of course, misses the point of the 10mm's versatility of use. It handles ALL of these roles as well or better than other so-called "service" cartridges that are available in a hi-cap autoloading platform of reasonable size and weight. Maybe a "nit" being picked there, but overall it was a positive write-up.

Just FYI for the group.
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Old 08-12-2013, 17:43   #2
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I may have to check that out. I agree, the dismissal of the 10mm as an SD round I have always found comical. Back in the day of wheelies, 357 Magnum was regarded as the end-all-be-all. Now that we have a high capacity semi-auto which ballistically does everything the 357 Mag can...that is somehow passe' ?

I have never understood that reasoning!
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Old 08-12-2013, 17:51   #3
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Yes I noticed that about the article as well.

There is certainly nothing wrong with the 10mm for self defense, given the right load choice.
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Old 08-12-2013, 18:47   #4
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I have it in front of me as I type.


Yes I too fail to grasp his concept about


" Although a lot of fans of the Glock 20- of any generation-undoubtedly see it as a defensive tool, to me it seems best -suited to be a general-purpose outdoorsman's gun."

His own testing shows the accuracy with the CD load and it's ballistics are bloody good for defense. Right in line with the highly effective, final incarnation, of the .41 mag police load.

OH

BTW

Did you look at the picture of the author in the .40 article shooting the gun?

He is all humped up like a dog crapping a peach pit.
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Old 08-12-2013, 19:15   #5
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Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
I have it in front of me as I type.
Yes I too fail to grasp his concept about


" Although a lot of fans of the Glock 20- of any generation-undoubtedly see it as a defensive tool, to me it seems best -suited to be a general-purpose outdoorsman's gun."

His own testing shows the accuracy with the CD load and it's ballistics are bloody good for defense. Right in line with the highly effective, final incarnation, of the .41 mag police load.
Yep, and instead of a 6-shot wheelie (e.g., a S&W model 58) it's a 15+1 autoloader that can push 200gn+ loads into the low-end territory of the .41 magnum.

Quote:
OH BTW

Did you look at the picture of the author in the .40 article shooting the gun?
He is all humped up like a dog crapping a peach pit.
Yes! I laughed when I saw that not-so-flattering pic.

He should have known to keep himself behind the scenes and get G&A to spring for a "Brokeback Mountain"-looking male model as the .40S&W eye-candy.

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Old 08-12-2013, 19:29   #6
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Guns and Ammo is NOT in touch with a lot of the reality of today -I do not like the magazine as they gloss over many things do not get to any depth on a lot of issues and are as opinionated as a democrat in Chicago. Just not my favorite.
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Old 08-12-2013, 21:17   #7
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Groupthink & Asinine magazine aside, we must admit that the problem 10mm was engineered to fix has been addressed via other means. In the early 1980s one could not purchase high-quality 9mm JHPs like we have today, and high capacity .45 ACP guns are quite common nowadays in large part because of advanced polymer frames.

Add in the fact that some legal jurisdictions are staffed by hoplophobe District Attorneys and police , and 10mm might actually be a liability for home defense. One big reason Harold Fish was convicted is because the jury pool bought into the prosecution's argument that the 10mm was a death ray round. Simply put, when we see a 10mm Glock we see a multi-use defensive weapon. The anti's and gun-ignorant see a "hand cannon", and such duffers will be deciding your fate in the jury box.
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Old 08-13-2013, 07:11   #8
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Originally Posted by BlackFratelli View Post
Groupthink & Asinine magazine aside, we must admit that the problem 10mm was engineered to fix has been addressed via other means. In the early 1980s one could not purchase high-quality 9mm JHPs like we have today, and high capacity .45 ACP guns are quite common nowadays in large part because of advanced polymer frames.

Add in the fact that some legal jurisdictions are staffed by hoplophobe District Attorneys and police , and 10mm might actually be a liability for home defense. One big reason Harold Fish was convicted is because the jury pool bought into the prosecution's argument that the 10mm was a death ray round. Simply put, when we see a 10mm Glock we see a multi-use defensive weapon. The anti's and gun-ignorant see a "hand cannon", and such duffers will be deciding your fate in the jury box.
Good thoughts -be aware friends...
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Old 08-13-2013, 12:22   #9
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I think agtman should write an article all about the 10mm, get it published in G&A, and straighten out these people. He can even feature/reference my 20 round G29 GPCCG "General Purpose Compact Carry Gun".

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Btw, 10mm [i]surpasses[i/] .357 Mag.
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Old 08-13-2013, 13:21   #10
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Originally Posted by Tazz10m View Post
I think agtman should write an article all about the 10mm, get it published in G&A, and straighten out these people. He can even feature/reference my 20 round G29 GPCCG "General Purpose Compact Carry Gun".

The 10 Ring

Btw, 10mm surpasses .357 Mag.
Ha! Thanks for the vote of confidence!

Maybe when I retire finally, ... although I'm not sure my smarmier comments directed at exploding the myths & historical inaccuracies spread by the 10mm-haters (past & present) would survive the editor's red pen.

Then there'd be screamin'-n-yellin' on my part, et al.

But Tazz, trust me, a pic of your G29 GPCCG dead center in the article would be Exhibit #1 in demonstating just how nicely a Glock 10mm can be tailored to the suit the owner!
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Old 08-13-2013, 14:08   #11
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Groupthink & Asinine magazine aside, we must admit that the problem 10mm was engineered to fix has been addressed via other means. In the early 1980s one could not purchase high-quality 9mm JHPs like we have today, and high capacity .45 ACP guns are quite common nowadays in large part because of advanced polymer frames.

Add in the fact that some legal jurisdictions are staffed by hoplophobe District Attorneys and police , and 10mm might actually be a liability for home defense. One big reason Harold Fish was convicted is because the jury pool bought into the prosecution's argument that the 10mm was a death ray round. Simply put, when we see a 10mm Glock we see a multi-use defensive weapon. The anti's and gun-ignorant see a "hand cannon", and such duffers will be deciding your fate in the jury box.
That is why I give such kudos to my locale. Glock 10mms of any model are in the top 5 of CCW pistols sold by out LGS and are carried by some LEOs around here on and/or off duty.

Remember the old saying

"Location, location, location"

I concede in an inner city libtard wasteland it might not be a good choice, but ".460 Rowland" sure sounds harmless.
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Old 08-13-2013, 14:38   #12
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Ha! Thanks for the vote of confidence!

Maybe when I retire finally, ... although I'm not sure my smarmier comments directed at exploding the myths & historical inaccuracies spread by the 10mm-haters (past & present) would survive the editor's red pen.

Then there'd be screamin'-n-yellin' on my part, et al.

But Tazz, trust me, a pic of your G29 GPCCG dead center in the article would be Exhibit #1 in demonstating just how nicely a Glock 10mm can be tailored to the suit the owner!
Oh, come on, agtman, with your knowledge and eloquence you could knock off a great article in about 10 minutes, tops. I'm sure the 10 Ringers here could provide a bunch of photo's to choose from to put in the article. And as for the editors, i'm not so sure they would cut anything out. They are desperate to get rag... ooops, i mean mag sales up and there is nothing like a little controversy to get attention with. I call it "The Madonna Effect". No matter how controversial, the bottom line is increased income. Madonna knew it, so i named it after her after she did that risque photo shoot back in the early 80's that everyone said would ruin her.

Plus, you can slip in shameless little plugs for each of the manufacturers products featured as well as a shameless little plug for GT and the worlds most exclusive club; The 10 Ring, as well as the other 10mm forums.

Maybe you could even title it; "The Extinct Dinosaur That Never Died".
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Old 08-13-2013, 14:59   #13
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The 10mm is on our list of agency approved off duty calibers, so I wouldn't be all too worried about prosecution, even in NJ.

I was surprised to see a 10mm gun (and a Glock at that) featured in Guns And Ammo. I think it is excellent that the 10mm is still getting some recognition in the gun press, even though most of us don't agree with everything the author said. Kudos to G&A for printing it.

The 10mm is back on the rise.
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Old 08-13-2013, 17:31   #14
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The 10mm is on our list of agency approved off duty calibers, so I wouldn't be all too worried about prosecution, even in NJ.
Learn to know weapon choice and defense better than the prosecutors, or your own attorneys, for that matter.

If we haven't learned that from the Zimmerman trial, we're lost.
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Old 08-13-2013, 22:09   #15
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Hadn't looked over the gun rags for a while, excepting the quick thumb-through I gave an issue of Rifle magazine a while back.

Today I was in an area Meijer store and I came across the Sept. 2013 issue of Guns & Ammo and just randomly picked it up to have a look.

This issue contains two, literally, back-to-back articles touching on the 10mm AUTO.

The first is a smarmy, uninformed piece by the resident G&A 10-hater talking-up the .40 at the expense of the 10mm. It's all smack on our round, apparently dead (again), while the .40 gets pumped like it's god's gift to the U.S. shooting community, L.E., etc.

Okay, whatever.

The second is a "We Shoot" G&A staff article on the 10mm Gen 4 G20. It's actually a credible write-up and is excellent on the gun itself, although the writer apparently never heard of Underwood, DT or Corbon ammo. He did hear about BB 220gn HC loads and Hornady's 165gn 10mm ammo (@ somewhere around 1200fps), both of which he put through the Gen 4 G20. No malfs whatsoever and he got great accuracy, as 10Ringers would expect. Plus his overall comments on handling, etc., were positive.

Notwithstanding the limited ammo selection used in his review, the only "downside" I noticed in his closing comments - and it's more of a quibble really - is the writer's extremely narrow view of the role of a 15+1 10mm G20. He sees it as limited to either (1) a "back-up" sidearm for hunting or (2) as an "outdoor" gun when camping, hiking, or working on horseback on the back-40 of a farm out west, etc. Neither the gun nor its cartridge, from his comments, would be his first choice for CCW, duty use, or home defense.

That, of course, misses the point of the 10mm's versatility of use. It handles ALL of these roles as well or better than other so-called "service" cartridges that are available in a hi-cap autoloading platform of reasonable size and weight. Maybe a "nit" being picked there, but overall it was a positive write-up.

Just FYI for the group.
I haven't read it, but thanks for the info.
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Old 08-14-2013, 03:20   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazz10m View Post
Learn to know weapon choice and defense better than the prosecutors, or your own attorneys, for that matter.

If we haven't learned that from the Zimmerman trial, we're lost.
Not a problem here. I am familiar with the court system.
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Old 08-14-2013, 11:54   #17
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Regarding "The .40's Still Roarin'" article, either the author, the editor, or both are idiots. According to the very first paragraph of the article, "S&W unveiled the Model .40 06..." What a goob. It was the model 4006, no period, no space.

Later on he claims the .40 case is entirely new using a small pistol primer to "reduce the chance of an accidental discharge by the ejector hitting the large pistol primer as the slide goes into battery." What an idiot. The ejector cannot hit the primer as the slide goes into battery. It is conceivable that it can hit t as the slide is manually cycled while clearing a loaded gun.

There is more, but I will stop there. It is pretty tough to take reloading advice from someone who believes the above.
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Old 08-18-2013, 23:15   #18
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Magazine publications are pretty much obsolete for a number of reasons, and getting rapidly obsoleter. The unchecked, uninformed, non-interactive nature of the animal simply makes them nearly useless and only marginally entertaining. The publishing of bunkum, however, makes them irritating.

In any case, my dream come true would be to see just one major US manufacturer step up to the plate with just one reasonable offering--an M&P from S&W for example. Now that the technology has been well-proven and we know that a solid-steel single stack monster pistol isn't the only viable option required to platform a 10, it would be nice if just one maker would acknowledge that it's a solid cartridge that should probably take over for 45ACP for the next several decades. I think it would be fairly easy to do as well or better than Glock in this caliber and I'd really like to see that happen.

I personally feel the 40SW is a very good cartridge and is certainly got enough going for it to make it more attractive than 9mm, and I'm happy to find so much brass in 40 that I'm tripping over it at the range. But 10 can do it all, I think, and without much if any compromise. Especially where our misguided bureaucrats have succeeded in limiting capacities to 10 rds and under, the option is an ideal one, IMO.

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Old 08-18-2013, 23:47   #19
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The 10mm and to some extent, it's offspring the .40, are only limited by the shooter, as all guns are.

If someone cannot drive a stick shift, it is most likely because for whatever reason, the person started driving an automatic, and just never learned.

I own smaller guns, carry other guns for CC, but nothing seems to snap like a 10 and all the rounds it holds. To get more rounds, I need to drop to 9mm. A big drop IMHO.

A .40 gives the same capacity, in a smaller frame gun in some cases. Options, the world is so full of options.

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Old 08-21-2013, 10:58   #20
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Great thread, guys!
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Old 08-24-2013, 13:37   #21
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Before this thread goes away I would like to use it as a platform to launch a campaign, however ill fated it may be, to reexamine the paradigm we have constructed around the 10mm round and the various platforms we launch it from. I, probably alone in this world, feel that we are doing a disservice to this caliber by being intent, or perhaps by manufacturers selling us on, the absolute need for high capacity in, specifically the Glock, when we have a polymer frame. In general, the EAA Witness standing out, if we choose steel, its a Witness or a 1911 single stack.

It would seem to me that there has been noise made towards Springfield about their XD series and chambering it in the 10. Now the have come out with the XDs which is working pretty darn well (we have 2). Why don't we propose, nay, DEMAND that they combine the XD (M or T) with the single stack feature of the XDS?

A single stack with the thin lines perhaps 8 or 9 round capacity in a polymer frame would be just the ticket in my book. I have no problem accepting that magazine capacity in a gun lighter that an all steel 1911. Lighter than a G-20. It would be great as a handgun while hunting and even a "Commander" sized urban gun would be the schnizz.
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Old 08-24-2013, 13:54   #22
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Before this thread goes away I would like to use it as a platform to launch a campaign, however ill fated it may be, to reexamine the paradigm we have constructed around the 10mm round and the various platforms we launch it from. I, probably alone in this world, feel that we are doing a disservice to this caliber by being intent, or perhaps by manufacturers selling us on, the absolute need for high capacity in, specifically the Glock, when we have a polymer frame. In general, the EAA Witness standing out, if we choose steel, its a Witness or a 1911 single stack.

It would seem to me that there has been noise made towards Springfield about their XD series and chambering it in the 10. Now the have come out with the XDs which is working pretty darn well (we have 2). Why don't we propose, nay, DEMAND that they combine the XD (M or T) with the single stack feature of the XDS?

A single stack with the thin lines perhaps 8 or 9 round capacity in a polymer frame would be just the ticket in my book. I have no problem accepting that magazine capacity in a gun lighter that an all steel 1911. Lighter than a G-20. It would be great as a handgun while hunting and even a "Commander" sized urban gun would be the schnizz.
In a word,no.

The trouble with your thoughtful statement is the laws of physics.A full power 10mm needs to be fired out of a full sized handgun for optimum controllability.A single stack poly frame XDs in 10mm loaded with Buffalo Bore ammo would be uncontrollable :not to mention the significant problem of ammunition supply.

I can't walk into a store to buy 10mm ,and that's a critical requirement of a carry gun.You won't get a voicemail from Fate saying today a local natural disaster will lay waste to your community.,so order some 10mm before the highways are closed!
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Old 08-24-2013, 14:11   #23
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In a word,no.

The trouble with your thoughtful statement is the laws of physics.A full power 10mm needs to be fired out of a full sized handgun for optimum controllability.A single stack poly frame XDs in 10mm loaded with Buffalo Bore ammo would be uncontrollable :not to mention the significant problem of ammunition supply.

I can't walk into a store to buy 10mm ,and that's a critical requirement of a carry gun.You won't get a voicemail from Fate saying today a local natural disaster will lay waste to your community.,so order some 10mm before the highways are closed!


With due respect I already reload the ten and have been shooting it for more that 12 years now. I was not suggesting a micro 10mm but a 1911 size polymer.

I find it curious because one designed as such, with a full magazine would probably weigh right in the neighborhood of a G-20 with one round in the chamber and one in the mag and I don't recall people complaining about the last couple of rounds out of a G-20 being "Uncontrollable" ?? Did I miss these reports somehow ?

I am sure that polymer offers the opportunity to contour a frame that would make my hands comfortable with the 10mm even after decades of shooting nasty big bore revolvers.
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Old 08-24-2013, 14:16   #24
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I really have just started shooting 10mm. The 29 is to big for me to CCW on my frame, however even if I was larger I would choose a different caliber. The only reason for this is that no one else I know shoots 10mm. I could never borrow or swap ammo, if SHTF I could never shoot their ammo, and they would not be able to shoot mine. If I'm not in town and I need more ammo, finding 10mm ammo is not easy to come by.

The 10mm cartridge is phenomenal and in the winter months I could probably even carry my 29SF sometimes. I'm personally limited by what is easily available and my friends and acquaintances. If I knew others that had or carry 10mm I'd choose to find a way to carry it sometimes
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Old 08-24-2013, 14:19   #25
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I will go further and state that many 10mm shooters buy their pistols to shoot the factory loads that amount to little more than the .40 S&W in a +p form and since they handle the .40 in 9mm frames that would hardly be an issue. Those that go beyond that tend to be handloaders and can tailor the load to their on comfort level or for a purpose, such as bear protection, when comfort is not the uppermost consideration. Further I was not referring to an urban "Zombie Apocalypse" weapon, and if ammo availability issues would somehow doom the concept then the 10mm would, itself, have already been doomed.

Let us also take not that no one is screaming from shooting the lighter compact Glocks.

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