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Old 07-23-2013, 13:41   #101
PhotoFeller
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Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
You got me wondering so when I reviewed my policy and didn't see anything specifically addressing coverage for civil suits and attorney's fees. So I just called my agent and asked him if this policy followed me and if I would be covered if I had to protect myself from an assailant and a trial ensued followed by a civil suit. He assured me that yes, I am protected against such situations and that it even goes further in that attorney's fees are treated separately and the policy amount can be exceeded if needed for my protection (again, attorney's fees). I even mentioned the Zimmerman/Martin case as an example just to be sure there was no mistaking my questions (he's one of us).

Hope this helps you.
Thats very good news, but I want to verify that my policy would provide the same type of coverage as yours. Chances are the industry has similar, if not identical, coverage standards.

Glad you raised this important point. I would never have thought about relying on my umbrella policy for this kind of coverage. It seems that anyone who carries should have umbrella policy protection. The policies aren't terribly expensive for $1 million coverage and higher.
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Old 07-23-2013, 14:14   #102
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Thats very good news, but I want to verify that my policy would provide the same type of coverage as yours. Chances are the industry has similar, if not identical, coverage standards.

Glad you raised this important point. I would never have thought about relying on my umbrella policy for this kind of coverage. It seems that anyone who carries should have umbrella policy protection. The policies aren't terribly expensive for $1 million coverage and higher.
They're cheap. Mine is $129 for $1 million in coverage and an extra $22 every six months for my two cars and my truck. This is due to a requirement in the umbrella policy that I raise my liability accordingly. Really pretty cheap when you consider what you're buying. The thing is, this policy is not enticing to some shyster attorney who wants to get to your assets since it has no cash value. But your assets are protected. And since I own my home outright (no mortgage), that only increases my net holdings and makes sinister attorneys froth at the mouth.
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Old 07-23-2013, 16:03   #103
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They're cheap. Mine is $129 for $1 million in coverage and an extra $22 every six months for my two cars and my truck. This is due to a requirement in the umbrella policy that I raise my liability accordingly. Really pretty cheap when you consider what you're buying. The thing is, this policy is not enticing to some shyster attorney who wants to get to your assets since it has no cash value. But your assets are protected. And since I own my home outright (no mortgage), that only increases my net holdings and makes sinister attorneys froth at the mouth.
It is against public policy in most states for liability insurance policies to cover CRIMINAL defense until after the conclusion of the trial and the entry of a not guilty verdict. The U.S. Concealed Carry Association and the Armed Citizens groups have come up with methods to address this concern. I believe that there are a few others out there as well, one more based out of Texas, if I recall correctly.
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Old 07-23-2013, 19:18   #104
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You got me wondering so when I reviewed my policy and didn't see anything specifically addressing coverage for civil suits and attorney's fees. So I just called my agent and asked him if this policy followed me and if I would be covered if I had to protect myself from an assailant and a trial ensued followed by a civil suit. He assured me that yes, I am protected against such situations and that it even goes further in that attorney's fees are treated separately and the policy amount can be exceeded if needed for my protection (again, attorney's fees). I even mentioned the Zimmerman/Martin case as an example just to be sure there was no mistaking my questions (he's one of us).

Hope this helps you.
There are a lot of variables that change that very quickly. One, if the allegation was it was an intentional act, the umbrella wouldn't provide coverage because most liability policies exclude intentional acts. Umbrella policies do provide a lot of coverage; but are not all inclusive.

I have one, too. They are cheap and can be very helpful in civil suits that are covered.



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Old 07-23-2013, 20:23   #105
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There are a lot of variables that change that very quickly. One, if the allegation was it was an intentional act, the umbrella wouldn't provide coverage because most liability policies exclude intentional acts. Umbrella policies do provide a lot of coverage; but are not all inclusive.

I have one, too. They are cheap and can be very helpful in civil suits that are covered.



red
Well the use of deadly force in defense of one's life is an intentional act yet my policy does protect me in the event something like that were to happen, according to my agent (obviously my actions would have to be found either justifiable or excusable).
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Last edited by SouthernBoyVA; 07-23-2013 at 20:24..
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Old 07-23-2013, 22:39   #106
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For those that carry, are you making changes based on the Zimmerman case?


Yes, I am always going to wear a hoody. That makes you the "good guy" in the court of public opinion.
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Old 07-24-2013, 19:34   #107
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Not a thing. Even before this media circus, I would not have followed someone through the dark between houses in the rain for fear of him accepting my pursuit of him, beating the sht out of me and IF I were lucky enough to get a shot in to stop the pummeling, the aftermath that would follow.
I wonder what Z himself would say if asked if he would do it over again the same way.
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Old 07-24-2013, 19:39   #108
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Not a thing. Even before this media circus, I would not have followed someone through the dark between houses in the rain for fear of him accepting my pursuit of him, beating the sht out of me and IF I were lucky enough to get a shot in to stop the pummeling, the aftermath that would follow.
I wonder what Z himself would say if asked if he would do it over again the same way.
We saw your show elsewhere.
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Old 07-24-2013, 19:42   #109
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Old 07-24-2013, 19:48   #110
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No, I personally believe that I as a ccw I have I larger responsibility to be on the up and up and avoid conflict at all cost.
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Old 07-24-2013, 19:56   #111
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We saw your show elsewhere.
I doubt Z would say that.
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Old 07-24-2013, 20:32   #112
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Well the use of deadly force in defense of one's life is an intentional act yet my policy does protect me in the event something like that were to happen, according to my agent (obviously my actions would have to be found either justifiable or excusable).
I think you are missing the point....if the allegation in the civil suit alleges it was an intentional act, your liability policy excludes intentional acts....regardless...the best you can hope for is your insurance company providing a defense under a reservation of rights until a determination is made by the courts.

The one thing you want to do is ask yourself, is your agent an attorney and experienced in handling such claims? If not, I'd be cautious. If what you say is word for word from the agent, get it in writing.

However, in civil litigation, most of the time, the purpose of the lawsuit is to get monetary reimbursement. Many plaintiff attorneys will word the suit in a manner to help keep it from being determined as an intentional act; so as to reap the bounty from the policy. Again, different courts/states deal with it differently.



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Old 07-24-2013, 20:42   #113
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I doubt Z would say that.
That made a lot of sense.
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Old 07-25-2013, 05:19   #114
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That made a lot of sense.
Your posts have nothing to offer toward the OP's question. How about don't ruin this thread like you did the other with your personal attacks and harrassment.
My position hasn't changed. I understand Z's frustration. I feel it in my own neighborhood. I understand M's reaction to being followed. Unfortunately for him it got himself shot. I try to avoid confrontations that could lead to bad outcomes. Nothing has changed.
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Old 07-25-2013, 06:33   #115
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I thought about this point the other day. They did test the firearm for trigger pull, which was discusses in the trial. I know modifications have been heavily debated in the carry forum. I have a stock trigger pull on my carry guns. You have to wonder if Z had a modified gun whether that would have been a factor in the outcome.


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Old 07-25-2013, 09:42   #116
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Your posts have nothing to offer toward the OP's question. How about don't ruin this thread like you did the other with your personal attacks and harrassment.
My position hasn't changed. I understand Z's frustration. I feel it in my own neighborhood. I understand M's reaction to being followed. Unfortunately for him it got himself shot. I try to avoid confrontations that could lead to bad outcomes. Nothing has changed.
Since noting has changed, why don't we give folks who missed your epicness a chance to see it in all its glory. I believe you started in about page 7 on the bottom,

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...1484597&page=7

Don't try and blame me for your fine handiwork, I had very little to do with that wreck.
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Old 07-25-2013, 10:13   #117
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Since noting has changed, why don't we give folks who missed your epicness a chance to see it in all its glory. I believe you started in about page 7 on the bottom,

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...1484597&page=7

Don't try and blame me for your fine handiwork, I had very little to do with that wreck.
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If the kid was white, no one would ever have heard of the story. The whole thing is a joke. The reason this kid got media attention is the same reason obama got elected twice. Idiots.

And I replied,
1000% true! And hopefully the phqn idiots will present us with an electable candidate in 2016 so the GD Democrats won't get elected again.

Did the burglaries stop? I thought so. Problem solved.

Fixed it for you. As I said, nothing has changed. Now if you'll quit whining about it, maybe we can get back on track with the OP's query.

Last edited by SevenSixtyTwo; 07-25-2013 at 10:14..
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Old 07-26-2013, 06:51   #118
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I think you are missing the point....if the allegation in the civil suit alleges it was an intentional act, your liability policy excludes intentional acts....regardless...the best you can hope for is your insurance company providing a defense under a reservation of rights until a determination is made by the courts.

The one thing you want to do is ask yourself, is your agent an attorney and experienced in handling such claims? If not, I'd be cautious. If what you say is word for word from the agent, get it in writing.

However, in civil litigation, most of the time, the purpose of the lawsuit is to get monetary reimbursement. Many plaintiff attorneys will word the suit in a manner to help keep it from being determined as an intentional act; so as to reap the bounty from the policy. Again, different courts/states deal with it differently.



red
Yes I must be missing your point because in my state, we enjoy an affirmative defense. If you shoot someone who you deem is an imminent threat to your well being then you fully admit it in court. Yes you shot this person and given the same set of circumstances, you would do the same thing again. That is an intentional act on your part.

Were it to go to civil litigation, the same argument would exist on your part since you did what you did deliberately and for good reason. The attorney I would use (I carry his card) is experience in these matters and has a track record of defending people charged with using a firearm or other firearm-related "crimes" (he carries both open and concealed).

I guess I fail to see where a policy such as this would refuse to cover someone who is forced to defend themselves with a firearm or other weapon. Would they just rather you die?

You clearly have some knowledge in this area.... what am I missing in this. Now if I do something foolish, if I pull a gun on someone without cause and it discharges and seriously injures them, I can see where the insurance company might say, "you're on your own with this one". But the justifiable use of force???? I can't imagine how they would fail to cover you under those circumstances.
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Old 07-26-2013, 07:54   #119
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A liability umbrella policy is to protect you against a liability lawsuit, regardless of the reason for the suit. They recommend you get one when you have teenage kids because if your kid does something to cause a suit against you, you will have 1 million (or more if you get a larger policy) for the suit and settlement.
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Old 07-26-2013, 08:21   #120
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A liability umbrella policy is to protect you against a liability lawsuit, regardless of the reason for the suit. They recommend you get one when you have teenage kids because if your kid does something to cause a suit against you, you will have 1 million (or more if you get a larger policy) for the suit and settlement.
When I bought my first umbrella policy years ago, it was because the agent thought it was wise to protect our assets against common claims like someone falling on my slippery sidewalk or my aggressive dog scares the Avon lady into a heart attack. With an unscrupulous lawyer, claims like this can get quite nasty.

I didn't realize umbrellas cover the teenagers, self defense incidents, etc. in addition to the basic stuff. How can we afford not to have the protection of such coverage?
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Old 07-27-2013, 07:01   #121
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When I bought my first umbrella policy years ago, it was because the agent thought it was wise to protect our assets against common claims like someone falling on my slippery sidewalk or my aggressive dog scares the Avon lady into a heart attack. With an unscrupulous lawyer, claims like this can get quite nasty.

I didn't realize umbrellas cover the teenagers, self defense incidents, etc. in addition to the basic stuff. How can we afford not to have the protection of such coverage?
I bought mine at the suggestion of my financial adviser to protect my assets since I rely upon my investments to serve me in my retirement. Then I got to thinking about the Zimmerman case and spoke to my insurance agent about that. I had often wondered about this and whether or not I would be protected. He assured me that I would be in the event I was forced to use a weapon in my defense.
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Old 07-27-2013, 10:11   #122
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I bought mine at the suggestion of my financial adviser to protect my assets since I rely upon my investments to serve me in my retirement. Then I got to thinking about the Zimmerman case and spoke to my insurance agent about that. I had often wondered about this and whether or not I would be protected. He assured me that I would be in the event I was forced to use a weapon in my defense.
You, I, and most others here who might use a weapon in self defense would present clear facts showing justification. Thus, there should be no challenge from our insurer about the intent of our actions.

The case I heard about this week where the shooter fired multiple rounds "in self defense" into a vehicle, killing one teenager, because the music style and volume indicated the occupants were thugs, is not so clear regarding intent. An insurer would likely need far more facts before writing any checks to lawyers on this one. This may prove to be a clear case for SD, but it looks a little shaky on the surface.

By the way, I've ordered Fox Labs pepper spray to experiment with. I will use some canisters for familiarization and practice, and carry one to see how it conceals. These devices are a lot less expensive than ammo to practice with, so we'll see how it goes.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 07-27-2013 at 10:34..
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Old 07-27-2013, 14:57   #123
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You, I, and most others here who might use a weapon in self defense would present clear facts showing justification. Thus, there should be no challenge from our insurer about the intent of our actions.

The case I heard about this week where the shooter fired multiple rounds "in self defense" into a vehicle, killing one teenager, because the music style and volume indicated the occupants were thugs, is not so clear regarding intent. An insurer would likely need far more facts before writing any checks to lawyers on this one. This may prove to be a clear case for SD, but it looks a little shaky on the surface.

By the way, I've ordered Fox Labs pepper spray to experiment with. I will use some canisters for familiarization and practice, and carry one to see how it conceals. These devices are a lot less expensive than ammo to practice with, so we'll see how it goes.
I can assure you that I am not of the mind to entertain an extreme encounter. I carry my gun with the same idea that I carry auto insurance. It is not something I wish to utilize but rather something I both want and need should the ultimate take place. I will deliberately and without question avoid places where I believe an incident could break out. I an cautious about my movements and encounters and will avoid where possible any altercations that could lead to a violent response on my part.

I do this because for several reasons, lease of which is because I am convinced that there is the distinct possibility that I could very easily lose the fight. In essence, I am not about to look for trouble or twist the tail of the dragon. I would much prefer that my sidearm remains in my holster until I get home.
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Last edited by SouthernBoyVA; 07-27-2013 at 19:27..
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Old 07-27-2013, 16:15   #124
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Old 07-27-2013, 16:51   #125
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For those that carry, are you making changes based on the Zimmerman case?


Yes, I am always going to wear a hoody. That makes you the "good guy" in the court of public opinion.
Not to mention, I can conceal every handgun I own, at the same time, underneath one and not print. If I get one a size larger and add a good pair of cargo pants, I can add a long gun and two carbines.
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