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Old 07-19-2013, 05:26   #76
jdavionic
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Originally Posted by Deaf Smith View Post
Or when looking for unusual activity he had a buddy with him. LEO's usually go on pairs for that reason so I see no reason a community crime watch would have them go in pairs.

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Neighborhood watch in my area consists of many complainers and very few doers. Doubling up is not a viable option. We are lucky to get 1 person out most times. Lots of people show up at meetings when there are crimes though.
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Old 07-19-2013, 06:34   #77
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The aftermath (jail, trial, legal costs, threats, uncertain future, impact on family, knowledge that a life was taken, world-wide identity as controversial shooter, and more) will cause many to consider different SD methods.

The Zimmerman case will likely result in new SD products like concealable stun guns, spray products and other gear for civilians to use against threats less deadly than guns. The popularity of hand-to-hand training will increase.

This case drives home the accountability and responsibility associated with carrying a firearm and makes clear the legal and many other consequences of shooting someone. It will cause many to rethink their SD needs, tactics and preparation, including training and thinking through responses to various threat scenarios. Those who scoff at the need to rethink and reevaluate their approach to CC are carelessly risking the same plight George Zimmerman will suffer for the rest of his life.

This case is a huge opportunity for each of us to rethink and, maybe, retool our self defense strategies. It costs nothing to spend some time thinking about situational awareness, avoiding places where trouble is more likely to happen, moving to a safer environment, responding to various threat scenarios, deciding what we'll do if we observe a crime in progress. If we are a neighborhood watch volunteer, the Zimmerman case lessons are plain.
I disagree. If one goes about armed, they should have already weighed the responsibilities and their potential actions should they ever have to use that firearm. They should have already taken courses covering the laws in their state and the use of deadly force thereof. Not doing this is foolish and tantamount to courting disaster.

What the Zimmerman case did show is the virulent racism which runs rampant in the press, the current administration at the federal level (white house and DOJ) and much of the rest of the federal government, and the so-called black civil rights organizations and their race baiters and hustlers who saw this as something to advance their racist agendas an line their pockets. That's what resulted from the Z trial.
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Last edited by SouthernBoyVA; 07-19-2013 at 06:35..
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Old 07-19-2013, 07:24   #78
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Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
I disagree. If one goes about armed, they should have already weighed the responsibilities and their potential actions should they ever have to use that firearm. They should have already taken courses covering the laws in their state and the use of deadly force thereof. Not doing this is foolish and tantamount to courting disaster.

What the Zimmerman case did show is the virulent racism which runs rampant in the press, the current administration at the federal level (white house and DOJ) and much of the rest of the federal government, and the so-called black civil rights organizations and their race baiters and hustlers who saw this as something to advance their racist agendas an line their pockets. That's what resulted from the Z trial.
^^^
+1

To the OP, my carry strategy has not changed.

As SouthernBoyVA stated above, this case, and I'm paraphrasing, was about politics & race. It was never about the law being broken. Peemypants Chris Mathews apologized to all African-Americans on behalf of all white people the other day because of what Z did.



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Old 07-19-2013, 09:08   #79
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I disagree. If one goes about armed, they should have already weighed the responsibilities and their potential actions should they ever have to use that firearm. They should have already taken courses covering the laws in their state and the use of deadly force thereof. Not doing this is foolish and tantamount to courting disaster.

What the Zimmerman case did show is the virulent racism which runs rampant in the press, the current administration at the federal level (white house and DOJ) and much of the rest of the federal government, and the so-called black civil rights organizations and their race baiters and hustlers who saw this as something to advance their racist agendas an line their pockets. That's what resulted from the Z trial.
I agree with you, and I think our statements are not diametrically opposed.

I said this case will cause people to think about the accountability and responsibility of CC for self defense. You said people who carry SHOULD ALREADY have reckoned with the consequences of shooting someone. I just think millions of people HAVE NOT carefully studied the laws nor have they considered what it might be like to be in Zimmerman's very uncomfortable shoes. Now some are waking up.

Your comments about race baiting and media bias are correct, I believe, and those conditions aren't likely to change...ever. The fact remains that if you or I shoot to defend ourselves against a black attacker, we may well be embroiled in the same mess as Zimmerman. Ignore that fact if you want, but some of us will take extra care to avoid ever being trapped in that situation or any situation where shooting in self defense is necessary.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 07-19-2013 at 09:13..
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Old 07-19-2013, 10:33   #80
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PhotoFeller
Or if T-ray would have actually went to Daddies house instead of planning how he would beat GZ to death! It takes two to have a fight. Both had oprotunities to change the out come of that night. One had 4 minutes to end the whole thing! But decided to commit a crime instead of going home to eat his Scittles!
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Old 07-19-2013, 10:41   #81
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I donít plan on making any changes to my carry routine.

The only criticism that I have of Zimmerman and what he did is that he got out of his truck to find a street name or address while talking to the 911 operator. I wouldnít have done that. But I wasnít there, so maybe he felt safe in doing it.

Questioning by the police? At this point Iíll let my lawyer do the talking. I simply donít trust the police or the district attorney.

I already carry pepper spray. But Iím disabled, to the point that Iím not able to spar or grapple with someone else. The problem with pepper spray is that itís not quite so effective on some people. And if you spray that person, theyíre going to be really pissed, probably more than they already were. But I carry it anyway.
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:17   #82
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What the Zimmerman case did show is the virulent racism which runs rampant in the press, the current administration at the federal level (white house and DOJ) and much of the rest of the federal government, and the so-called black civil rights organizations and their race baiters and hustlers who saw this as something to advance their racist agendas an line their pockets. That's what resulted from the Z trial.
Amen!
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:18   #83
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I don't carry a load in the chamber. Thus far arguments in favor haven't sold me that I'd be better off, given my own abilities and limitations.

But the Zimmerman case - I can see myself jumped by a 17 year old tough, on the ground, getting my head beaten, nobody coming to help. I get to my pocket pistol, but might not be able to rack a round with this guy sitting on me whaling away.

So, I'm reconsidering.

PS Anyone KNOW whether GZ had one in the pipe at the time? I assume so. I've seen media reports that he did, but, you know, media reports...
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:56   #84
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I don't carry a load in the chamber. Thus far arguments in favor haven't sold me that I'd be better off, given my own abilities and limitations.

But the Zimmerman case - I can see myself jumped by a 17 year old tough, on the ground, getting my head beaten, nobody coming to help. I get to my pocket pistol, but might not be able to rack a round with this guy sitting on me whaling away.

So, I'm reconsidering.

PS Anyone KNOW whether GZ had one in the pipe at the time? I assume so. I've seen media reports that he did, but, you know, media reports...
Yes he had one in the chamber. That is the way everyone, that I know, carries a semi-auto.

Zimmerman would have had a h&^%* of a time using both hands to rack the slide.

If you don't feel comfortable with a round in the chamber of a semi auto, get a revolver.

Better yet, get some training.
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:02   #85
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I don't carry a load in the chamber. Thus far arguments in favor haven't sold me that I'd be better off, given my own abilities and limitations.

But the Zimmerman case - I can see myself jumped by a 17 year old tough, on the ground, getting my head beaten, nobody coming to help. I get to my pocket pistol, but might not be able to rack a round with this guy sitting on me whaling away.

So, I'm reconsidering.

PS Anyone KNOW whether GZ had one in the pipe at the time? I assume so. I've seen media reports that he did, but, you know, media reports...
The secret to self defense is avoiding situations where using a gun becomes necessary. The odds against being on your back on the concrete with someone bashing your head are astronomically high if you're smart. How many people have you known that used their gun for SD?

Nothing wrong with reconsidering. Lots of people are doing that. Do what you feel is appropriate based on your personal circumstances.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 07-19-2013 at 13:31..
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:40   #86
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I agree with you, and I think our statements are not diametrically opposed.

I said this case will cause people to think about the accountability and responsibility of CC for self defense. You said people who carry SHOULD ALREADY have reckoned with the consequences of shooting someone. I just think millions of people HAVE NOT carefully studied the laws nor have they considered what it might be like to be in Zimmerman's very uncomfortable shoes. Now some are waking up.

Your comments about race baiting and media bias are correct, I believe, and those conditions aren't likely to change...ever. The fact remains that if you or I shoot to defend ourselves against a black attacker, we may well be embroiled in the same mess as Zimmerman. Ignore that fact if you want, but some of us will take extra care to avoid ever being trapped in that situation or any situation where shooting in self defense is necessary.
Good post. I would recommend that those who have not taken out an umbrella insurance policy to protect their net wealth may wish to do this. I have one and am glad I do.
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:42   #87
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Originally Posted by SlowBurn View Post
I don't carry a load in the chamber. Thus far arguments in favor haven't sold me that I'd be better off, given my own abilities and limitations.

But the Zimmerman case - I can see myself jumped by a 17 year old tough, on the ground, getting my head beaten, nobody coming to help. I get to my pocket pistol, but might not be able to rack a round with this guy sitting on me whaling away.

So, I'm reconsidering.

PS Anyone KNOW whether GZ had one in the pipe at the time? I assume so. I've seen media reports that he did, but, you know, media reports...
I'm going to bet his gun was in full battery at the time he pulled it out for use.
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:46   #88
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I donít plan on making any changes to my carry routine.

The only criticism that I have of Zimmerman and what he did is that he got out of his truck to find a street name or address while talking to the 911 operator. I wouldnít have done that. But I wasnít there, so maybe he felt safe in doing it.

Questioning by the police? At this point Iíll let my lawyer do the talking. I simply donít trust the police or the district attorney.

I already carry pepper spray. But Iím disabled, to the point that Iím not able to spar or grapple with someone else. The problem with pepper spray is that itís not quite so effective on some people. And if you spray that person, theyíre going to be really pissed, probably more than they already were. But I carry it anyway.
Both of the individuals in this encounter made mistakes. The outcome could have been avoided. Of course, that is a moot point now. I think PhotoFeller's points are well made and taken as to being more aware of things, not just one's surroundings. The law and what can happen to people who do pull that gun and use it.

This is why I have taken courses in this very topic; the laws of my state and the use of deadly force therein. Four so far. And I still learn stuff.
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Old 07-19-2013, 13:01   #89
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Lessons learned ( and relearned)
1. The best outcome of a confrontation is to not get in one.
2. Stay out of Angela Corey's jurisdiction for now and hope the legal system removes her soon. Don't blame the state of Florida. Every state has one.
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Old 07-19-2013, 13:34   #90
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Lessons learned ( and relearned)
1. The best outcome of a confrontation is to not get in one.
2. Stay out of Angela Corey's jurisdiction for now and hope the legal system removes her soon. Don't blame the state of Florida. Every state has one.
Yep.
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Old 07-19-2013, 13:35   #91
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The secret to self defense is avoiding situations where using a gun becomes necessary. The odds against being on your back on the concrete with someone bashing your head are astronomically high if you're smart.
I'd like to think so. He got careless, getting out of his car to read the street sign, knowing that guy was around somewhere. But we've all been a little careless at times.

I hope never to need the gun for SD, but that is why we carry, right?
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Old 07-19-2013, 13:40   #92
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Good post. I would recommend that those who have not taken out an umbrella insurance policy to protect their net wealth may wish to do this. I have one and am glad I do.
I've got an umbrella policy, too, but I never thought of it as protection against a civil suit resulting from a SD Incident. Have you asked your insurance agent about coverage for such litigation? I hope you're right.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 07-19-2013 at 13:41..
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Old 07-19-2013, 13:45   #93
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Both of the individuals in this encounter made mistakes. The outcome could have been avoided. Of course, that is a moot point now. I think PhotoFeller's points are well made and taken as to being more aware of things, not just one's surroundings. The law and what can happen to people who do pull that gun and use it.

This is why I have taken courses in this very topic; the laws of my state and the use of deadly force therein. Four so far. And I still learn stuff.
You are correct sir.

I've taken a few classes myself and I plan on taking more in the future.

Education never hurts.
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Old 07-19-2013, 16:42   #94
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I've got an umbrella policy, too, but I never thought of it as protection against a civil suit resulting from a SD Incident. Have you asked your insurance agent about coverage for such litigation? I hope you're right.
I did say something about having to use a firearm and the potential of civil litigation and he inferred that I would be covered. However, I really should get a more definitive answer.
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Old 07-19-2013, 16:45   #95
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You are correct sir.

I've taken a few classes myself and I plan on taking more in the future.

Education never hurts.
Amen to that. Always be leery of people who claim or act as though they know everything. More often than not, their advice will lead you on a path of fools. The attorney who hosted three of the courses I took is also a friend. I have had lunch and dinner with him with a group a number of times. He is a very interesting man and s a wealth of information in these areas of firearms use and the law.
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Old 07-19-2013, 17:26   #96
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Yes, I plan on adding pepper spray, to my 27, for escalation of force.

Sent on Outdoor Hub, from my RAZR Mini.
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Old 07-19-2013, 19:25   #97
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Yes, I plan on adding pepper spray, to my 27, for escalation of force.

Sent on Outdoor Hub, from my RAZR Mini.
What spray is used most by law enforcement? Is it the best or are there more more effective, more concealable formulas or brands?

An earlier post said the legal standard for civilian use of spray for SD is the same as using a firearm. This may vary from state-to-state, but thats an important point for clarification. Anyone know what their state law says?
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Old 07-19-2013, 20:14   #98
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What spray is used most by law enforcement? Is it the best or are there more more effective, more concealable formulas or brands?

An earlier post said the legal standard for civilian use of spray for SD is the same as using a firearm. This may vary from state-to-state, but thats an important point for clarification. Anyone know what their state law says?
The laws vary somewhat in their interpretation by precedent. But in my State UNJUSTIFIED use of spray would be "aggravated assault" currently. The "Weapon" would be the spray adding the "aggravating" factor in the assault.

When adding a gun into it we have a plethora of "Reckless" "Endangering" , "Intents" for non-fatals.
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Old 07-19-2013, 20:46   #99
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what got me thinking is someone posted a question to Mas in Gate SD section. he asked'' if Zimmerman had a back up gun how that would have played out''. i'm thinking to take it further, what if he had an SD knife and two spare mags. I always carry a BUG sometimes two, makes me think.
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Old 07-23-2013, 12:04   #100
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I've got an umbrella policy, too, but I never thought of it as protection against a civil suit resulting from a SD Incident. Have you asked your insurance agent about coverage for such litigation? I hope you're right.
You got me wondering so when I reviewed my policy and didn't see anything specifically addressing coverage for civil suits and attorney's fees. So I just called my agent and asked him if this policy followed me and if I would be covered if I had to protect myself from an assailant and a trial ensued followed by a civil suit. He assured me that yes, I am protected against such situations and that it even goes further in that attorney's fees are treated separately and the policy amount can be exceeded if needed for my protection (again, attorney's fees). I even mentioned the Zimmerman/Martin case as an example just to be sure there was no mistaking my questions (he's one of us).

Hope this helps you.
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