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Old 07-16-2013, 22:51   #51
djdavis75
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I'm removing this comment as I see how it could be taken out of context and used against me...
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Old 07-16-2013, 22:51   #52
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Originally Posted by md2lgyk View Post
Why would I change how I carry because of him? I'm not an overly aggressive, cop-wannabe idiot. Except for when I was an LEO, I've never confronted anybody like he did in all my 65 years.
Sorry but no prof that he is ANY of that or confronted anyone.
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Old 07-16-2013, 22:54   #53
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I am strongly considering selling my Glock and no longer carrying
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Old 07-16-2013, 23:16   #54
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I am strongly considering selling my Glock and no longer carrying
I thought about that too 20+ years ago when I took "Introduction to Lethal Force" with Mas Ayoob. You carry a weapon you are held to a higher standard, period. You don't go looking for trouble, we pay people to do that. I for one am not going to give up the ability to defend / protect me and my family because of some TV trial.
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Old 07-17-2013, 02:33   #55
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As most will know, I cannot carry concealed or otherwise in Canada excepting for wilderness protection against four legged beasts.

I DO carry stateside however and we are planning to retire to Florida (cheap flight for the kids/grandkids out of Buffalo) and have been giving some thought to AZ/NV.

If you have not had to confront someone intent on doing you grievous bodily harm or death you are trying to form a picture in your mind that is difficult to conjure up, at best.

I have looked down the muzzle of a firearm TWICE in my life. First time, as coincidence has it, was in the Orlando area on our way to Disney with the kids in the van. Guy was obviously high - nonetheless, I had a handgun pointed in my face. Had I been armed it is entirely likely that, had the better alternative been to 'light him up', that is exactly what I would have done. No questions asked. No thinking. Split second decision. The guy would have had ten rounds in him unless he was obviously ending his assault. Why ten rounds? Because that's what my magazines hold. We were Very lucky to escape with our lives at that time I believe at it was the defining moment - I have carried whenever and wherever possible stateside since and avoid the states where I am unable to protect myself or my family/friends. Period.

The second time I had to face firearms was during an attempted home invasion just about 3 years ago. Two obviously high punks at the door trying to pry it open (why they didn't just smash the glass I will never know)...both with pry bars and both with handguns. I told the 911 operator if they came in uninvited at 3 a.m. they would be leaving feet first - got the message and moments later our lawn was covered with police cars and the PUNKS were taken down at gunpoint. End of story.

If you carry a loaded gun you are held to a higher standard in the use of force - they key being that you should be "in fear of imminent grievous bodily harm or death by the actions of your assailant". Zimmerman's error was in giving statements and interviews. It was both his saving grace AND his downfall (almost). It is impossible to give a coherent statement to LE onsite and then again and again. Some things in your statement are going to change, either because you remember them otherwise as time goes on, or whatever. Best bet? Lawyer up and give a full and rock solid statement to law enforcement. And shut up. Period. Zimmerman did otherwise and it almost cost him the rest of his life behind bars. He is not out of the hot water yet as he continues to be tried in the media (please take CNN and FLN off of my cable, thank you). The politicians and the civil rights groups are hopping on board.

And what say of the gal in Florida who fired warning shots and has been sentenced to 20 years in prison for 'attempted murder'? To be straight, during training in use of lethal force, I was told that if you have cause to draw your firearm and use it, 'shoot to kill'. To do anything else is going to get you a world of hurt. You need to be sure of why you are drawing and shooting. And you need to do it right and keep your mouth shut. This gal had a restraining order against the ex. And she probably saved his life by firing those warning shots instead of drilling him.... but the courts do not think logically. She was likely entitled to use lethal force to prevent the attack as he approached her and those warning shots woke him up to the consequences of his actions. Was it a racist decision by the judge and jury? You bet your ass it was; they were both black. Wonder if the sentence would have been 20 years for a warning shot if she had been a white teenager? I don't know to be honest but I do know that at MOST this should have been a misdemeanor discharge of a firearm and in all honesty? It should never have gone to court. Period.

I am making NO changes based on the Zimmerman case nor the latter case. If I draw my firearm or remove it from safe storage in an 'event' I am intending to use it to end an assault. I will continue to do so for the rest of my days.

Zimmerman's arrest and trial was almost a travesty. I believe that it was necessary to extract the fine details of the events surrounding the death of Trayvon Martin that otherwise would never have come out. But from the evidence presented, NOT GUILTY was the correct verdict and from the EVIDENCE PRESENTED everyone should be satisfied with the outcome. Between the press and the other groups fanning the flames, this is not going to end in the near future and Zimmerman will never be able to live a normal life ever again. He has been sentenced to LIFE IN PRISON WITHOUT PAROLE. The only difference is that he has the benefit of travel and if I were George Zimmerman, I would lost those 90 pounds again, colour my hair, grow a beard and leave the country.

This was a tragedy - brought on by the actions and bravado of a less than wise teenager - and brought on by the actions of a neighborhood watch captain who should have perhaps waited for police to arrive before making another move when he was advised to do so. George Zimmerman, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, killed Trayvon Martin in self defense and was justified in doing so.

The only difference this may make to my personal actions? Stay away from dark places; install audio/video camera on the vehicle; turn my cellphone onto audio record and let it store to external SD RAM card whenever I am unsure. Or just plain old NOTHING DIFFERENT.

If I have to draw my weapon in defense of self/loved ones - I will use it.

Where does this stack up against the Zimmerman/Martin case? Not much different. Pity there was no video of the entire encounter and perhaps this needs to be made part of the neighborhood watch protocol in future?
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Old 07-17-2013, 04:12   #56
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I am strongly considering selling my Glock and no longer carrying
You're kidding, right?
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Old 07-17-2013, 05:11   #57
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Old 07-17-2013, 05:26   #58
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You're kidding, right?
No not at all.
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Old 07-17-2013, 05:36   #59
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It's interesting. I often see people here and even people that I work with or know personally that get a permit to carry. You see posts - what gun should I get, what holster should I get, what holster position is best, do I carry with one in the chamber or not, etc. I would think this case would make some people think further - what training should I get, what organizations are helpful in education & supporting my right to carry, etc.

I wouldn't expect this case would result in someone who just decides to no longer carry...nor would I expect someone to say 'I used to constantly confront people on neighborhood patrol...no more'. Instead, I would think the 'changes' that folks might ponder are - what additional education is out there, what type of legal protection is available, are there training that are better than others for someone starting out, etc.
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Old 07-17-2013, 05:39   #60
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No not at all.
It's certainly not for everyone. However if I recall, you work in a 'high risk' environment where robberies and murders have a greater probability. Why would you be willing to sacrifice your own safety? What is it about carrying after the Zimmerman case that has you so concerned that you're considering no carry as a solution? Have you considered other options?
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Old 07-17-2013, 05:44   #61
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Get an umbrella insurance policy. These policies serve to protect your net wealth against those who seek the deepest pockets in the event of a lawsuit of some sort. They are very inexpensive and well worth the money (around $100-$150 a year). Most start at $1 million and can be a God send. Stop and think of your personal net wealth and what you could stand to lose if a plaintiff wins a suit against you.
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Old 07-17-2013, 06:58   #62
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I'm not planning on any changes. If someone attacks me with deadly force - including smashing my head on the pavement - I will definitely shoot them.
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Old 07-17-2013, 07:09   #63
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I'm not planning on any changes. If someone attacks me with deadly force - including smashing my head on the pavement - I will definitely shoot them.
That part of the incident is fairly obvious. Did you see anything in the events leading up to and the aftermath that have caused you to assess whether changes in other aspects of carrying are desired ?
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Old 07-17-2013, 07:14   #64
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That part of the incident is fairly obvious. Did you see anything in the events leading up to and the aftermath that have caused you to assess whether changes in other aspects of carrying are desired ?
Well I also carry a spray - the nastiest anti-personnel OC spray I can find.
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Old 07-17-2013, 07:23   #65
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Well I also carry a spray - the nastiest anti-personnel OC spray I can find.
FoxLabs?
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Old 07-17-2013, 12:09   #66
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Did you see anything in the events leading up to and the aftermath that have caused you to assess whether changes in other aspects of carrying are desired ?
The aftermath (jail, trial, legal costs, threats, uncertain future, impact on family, knowledge that a life was taken, world-wide identity as controversial shooter, and more) will cause many to consider different SD methods.

The Zimmerman case will likely result in new SD products like concealable stun guns, spray products and other gear for civilians to use against threats less deadly than guns. The popularity of hand-to-hand training will increase.

This case drives home the accountability and responsibility associated with carrying a firearm and makes clear the legal and many other consequences of shooting someone. It will cause many to rethink their SD needs, tactics and preparation, including training and thinking through responses to various threat scenarios. Those who scoff at the need to rethink and reevaluate their approach to CC are carelessly risking the same plight George Zimmerman will suffer for the rest of his life.

This case is a huge opportunity for each of us to rethink and, maybe, retool our self defense strategies. It costs nothing to spend some time thinking about situational awareness, avoiding places where trouble is more likely to happen, moving to a safer environment, responding to various threat scenarios, deciding what we'll do if we observe a crime in progress. If we are a neighborhood watch volunteer, the Zimmerman case lessons are plain.

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Old 07-17-2013, 13:09   #67
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This case is a huge opportunity for each of us to rethink and, maybe, retool our self defense strategies. It costs nothing to spend some time thinking about situational awareness, avoiding places where trouble is more likely to happen, moving to a safer environment, responding to various threat scenarios, deciding what we'll do if we observe a crime in progress. If we are a neighborhood watch volunteer, the Zimmerman case lessons are plain.

The lesson everyone should take away is that if your self defense strategy begins and ends with merely having a gun and reliance on luck. Be prepared for a lot of grief if you manage to actually survive a serious encounter.
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:13   #68
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The lesson everyone should take away is that if your self defense strategy begins and ends with merely having a gun and reliance on luck. Be prepared for a lot of grief if you manage to actually survive a serious encounter.
Ditto. The best outcome for an unfriendly encounter is to avoid having one in the first place. There are just too many stories of guys that shot someone with good reason and legal justification that still spend a lot of time and money defending themselves in court after the fact.

Shooting someone should be #2 on your list of bad things that could happen to you. It's still number 2.
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:58   #69
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I will never carry pepper spray as if I have to use my firearm, I don't want them to have the excuse to ask why I didn't use the lesser force available to me. I have had recent back surgery and was not able to carry for several months...even though the pain is intense...I have switched back to wearing the uncomfortable clothing so I can carry again. I will also have to find my 2nd mag and start carrying that too. Good luck to everyone, and keep up a good situational awareness of those around you!
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Old 07-18-2013, 09:21   #70
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Nope other then it's a good arguement to carry with one in the pipe! Just think what might have happened if he had to rack a round in! Kind of hard to do with someone sittng on you!
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Old 07-18-2013, 13:04   #71
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I carry my 17 now as much as I carry the 26...
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Old 07-18-2013, 17:15   #72
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Nope other then it's a good arguement to carry with one in the pipe! Just think what might have happened if he had to rack a round in! Kind of hard to do with someone sittng on you!
Just think of what might NOT have happened if he had been more discrete in his attempt to track down his suspect.

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Old 07-18-2013, 20:35   #73
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Just think of what might NOT have happened if he had been more discrete in his attempt to track down his suspect.
Or when looking for unusual activity he had a buddy with him. LEO's usually go on pairs for that reason so I see no reason a community crime watch would have them go in pairs.

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Old 07-18-2013, 22:52   #74
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I'm not changing anything, but it has caused me to be even more careful to stay out of other people's issues unless a life is at risk. Otherwise, it's call 911 and get out of the way.
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Old 07-18-2013, 22:58   #75
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Or when looking for unusual activity he had a buddy with him. LEO's usually go on pairs for that reason so I see no reason a community crime watch would have them go in pairs.

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You are aware that he was on the way to the Target store to go shopping when he saw someone suspicious?
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