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Old 07-16-2013, 00:16   #41
Lisbeth
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Originally Posted by md2lgyk View Post
Why would I change how I carry because of him? I'm not an overly aggressive, cop-wannabe idiot. Except for when I was an LEO, I've never confronted anybody like he did in all my 65 years.
md2lgyk, too bad you weren't on the jury....
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Old 07-16-2013, 00:55   #42
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No changes. . . .

I think Z made some tactical errors, but I cannot claim that I would not have made those exact same errors if I had been in his place.

I often walk my dog in the evening around our sub-division. I always have a gun, knife and a flashlight. Most of the time I also have a cellphone. It is a small sub-division and I know everyone who lives there. So if I saw someone who didn't belong at 10 at night what are the options?

- illuminate them with my flashlight and politely ask if I could be of assistance?
- Stay out of sight and call 911?
- Go back home and call 911?

One thing I would not do is approach the person, or follow him into a darken or secluded area. My one goal would be to maintain some distance between me and him.
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Old 07-16-2013, 00:59   #43
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md2lgyk, too bad you weren't on the jury....
Well the jury was made up of Six WOMEN what can you expect, there is no way they know anything about "justice"
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Old 07-16-2013, 04:34   #44
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Well the jury was made up of Six WOMEN what can you expect, there is no way they know anything about "justice"
Smile when you say that, pardner......
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Old 07-16-2013, 05:33   #45
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No change for me. I may be a little more observant in some locales but otherwise, nothing. My sidearm is still going to be out in the open and I will still conduct myself as I always do when out and about.
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Old 07-16-2013, 13:25   #46
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Well the jury was made up of Six WOMEN what can you expect, there is no way they know anything about "justice"
Turns out the prosecutor used one of his outs to drop a black female. Why/ She watched Fox news!

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Old 07-16-2013, 13:37   #47
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Best to let that civillian CCW make you conflict-adverse, rather than embolden you into foolish, dangerous, and possibly criminal actions. Don't get me wrong, I am not afraid of a fight, but we are not police officers. Good luck to you all.
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Old 07-16-2013, 21:00   #48
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I'm not afraid of a fight either, but I sure don't go looking for it.

See at night, alone, looking for questionable people to report to police can invoke a serious response (as Zimmerman found out.) At the minimum I would have had a buddy with me as a second pair of eyes.

Now a cop has a) bullet proof vest, b) gun, c) pepper spray d) baton, e) a two-way, and f) a buddy.

Zimmerman had none of the above except the gun (and maybe a two-way, his cell phone.) That was not wise. A small gang of say three or four could really have done a number on him since he surely was not in condition yellow when Martin showed up.

So it's not that I am afraid of cops, or DAs, or such. But I am afraid of putting myself in grave danger when not absolutely necessary.

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Old 07-16-2013, 21:29   #49
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I no longer follow taller, hooded, thugs with grills, around in the dark, in the rain. Other than that, no.
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Old 07-16-2013, 22:13   #50
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Old 07-16-2013, 22:51   #51
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I'm removing this comment as I see how it could be taken out of context and used against me...
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Old 07-16-2013, 22:51   #52
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Originally Posted by md2lgyk View Post
Why would I change how I carry because of him? I'm not an overly aggressive, cop-wannabe idiot. Except for when I was an LEO, I've never confronted anybody like he did in all my 65 years.
Sorry but no prof that he is ANY of that or confronted anyone.
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Old 07-16-2013, 22:54   #53
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I am strongly considering selling my Glock and no longer carrying
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Old 07-16-2013, 23:16   #54
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I am strongly considering selling my Glock and no longer carrying
I thought about that too 20+ years ago when I took "Introduction to Lethal Force" with Mas Ayoob. You carry a weapon you are held to a higher standard, period. You don't go looking for trouble, we pay people to do that. I for one am not going to give up the ability to defend / protect me and my family because of some TV trial.
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Old 07-17-2013, 02:33   #55
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As most will know, I cannot carry concealed or otherwise in Canada excepting for wilderness protection against four legged beasts.

I DO carry stateside however and we are planning to retire to Florida (cheap flight for the kids/grandkids out of Buffalo) and have been giving some thought to AZ/NV.

If you have not had to confront someone intent on doing you grievous bodily harm or death you are trying to form a picture in your mind that is difficult to conjure up, at best.

I have looked down the muzzle of a firearm TWICE in my life. First time, as coincidence has it, was in the Orlando area on our way to Disney with the kids in the van. Guy was obviously high - nonetheless, I had a handgun pointed in my face. Had I been armed it is entirely likely that, had the better alternative been to 'light him up', that is exactly what I would have done. No questions asked. No thinking. Split second decision. The guy would have had ten rounds in him unless he was obviously ending his assault. Why ten rounds? Because that's what my magazines hold. We were Very lucky to escape with our lives at that time I believe at it was the defining moment - I have carried whenever and wherever possible stateside since and avoid the states where I am unable to protect myself or my family/friends. Period.

The second time I had to face firearms was during an attempted home invasion just about 3 years ago. Two obviously high punks at the door trying to pry it open (why they didn't just smash the glass I will never know)...both with pry bars and both with handguns. I told the 911 operator if they came in uninvited at 3 a.m. they would be leaving feet first - got the message and moments later our lawn was covered with police cars and the PUNKS were taken down at gunpoint. End of story.

If you carry a loaded gun you are held to a higher standard in the use of force - they key being that you should be "in fear of imminent grievous bodily harm or death by the actions of your assailant". Zimmerman's error was in giving statements and interviews. It was both his saving grace AND his downfall (almost). It is impossible to give a coherent statement to LE onsite and then again and again. Some things in your statement are going to change, either because you remember them otherwise as time goes on, or whatever. Best bet? Lawyer up and give a full and rock solid statement to law enforcement. And shut up. Period. Zimmerman did otherwise and it almost cost him the rest of his life behind bars. He is not out of the hot water yet as he continues to be tried in the media (please take CNN and FLN off of my cable, thank you). The politicians and the civil rights groups are hopping on board.

And what say of the gal in Florida who fired warning shots and has been sentenced to 20 years in prison for 'attempted murder'? To be straight, during training in use of lethal force, I was told that if you have cause to draw your firearm and use it, 'shoot to kill'. To do anything else is going to get you a world of hurt. You need to be sure of why you are drawing and shooting. And you need to do it right and keep your mouth shut. This gal had a restraining order against the ex. And she probably saved his life by firing those warning shots instead of drilling him.... but the courts do not think logically. She was likely entitled to use lethal force to prevent the attack as he approached her and those warning shots woke him up to the consequences of his actions. Was it a racist decision by the judge and jury? You bet your ass it was; they were both black. Wonder if the sentence would have been 20 years for a warning shot if she had been a white teenager? I don't know to be honest but I do know that at MOST this should have been a misdemeanor discharge of a firearm and in all honesty? It should never have gone to court. Period.

I am making NO changes based on the Zimmerman case nor the latter case. If I draw my firearm or remove it from safe storage in an 'event' I am intending to use it to end an assault. I will continue to do so for the rest of my days.

Zimmerman's arrest and trial was almost a travesty. I believe that it was necessary to extract the fine details of the events surrounding the death of Trayvon Martin that otherwise would never have come out. But from the evidence presented, NOT GUILTY was the correct verdict and from the EVIDENCE PRESENTED everyone should be satisfied with the outcome. Between the press and the other groups fanning the flames, this is not going to end in the near future and Zimmerman will never be able to live a normal life ever again. He has been sentenced to LIFE IN PRISON WITHOUT PAROLE. The only difference is that he has the benefit of travel and if I were George Zimmerman, I would lost those 90 pounds again, colour my hair, grow a beard and leave the country.

This was a tragedy - brought on by the actions and bravado of a less than wise teenager - and brought on by the actions of a neighborhood watch captain who should have perhaps waited for police to arrive before making another move when he was advised to do so. George Zimmerman, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, killed Trayvon Martin in self defense and was justified in doing so.

The only difference this may make to my personal actions? Stay away from dark places; install audio/video camera on the vehicle; turn my cellphone onto audio record and let it store to external SD RAM card whenever I am unsure. Or just plain old NOTHING DIFFERENT.

If I have to draw my weapon in defense of self/loved ones - I will use it.

Where does this stack up against the Zimmerman/Martin case? Not much different. Pity there was no video of the entire encounter and perhaps this needs to be made part of the neighborhood watch protocol in future?
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Old 07-17-2013, 04:12   #56
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I am strongly considering selling my Glock and no longer carrying
You're kidding, right?
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Old 07-17-2013, 05:11   #57
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Old 07-17-2013, 05:26   #58
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You're kidding, right?
No not at all.
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Old 07-17-2013, 05:36   #59
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It's interesting. I often see people here and even people that I work with or know personally that get a permit to carry. You see posts - what gun should I get, what holster should I get, what holster position is best, do I carry with one in the chamber or not, etc. I would think this case would make some people think further - what training should I get, what organizations are helpful in education & supporting my right to carry, etc.

I wouldn't expect this case would result in someone who just decides to no longer carry...nor would I expect someone to say 'I used to constantly confront people on neighborhood patrol...no more'. Instead, I would think the 'changes' that folks might ponder are - what additional education is out there, what type of legal protection is available, are there training that are better than others for someone starting out, etc.
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Old 07-17-2013, 05:39   #60
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No not at all.
It's certainly not for everyone. However if I recall, you work in a 'high risk' environment where robberies and murders have a greater probability. Why would you be willing to sacrifice your own safety? What is it about carrying after the Zimmerman case that has you so concerned that you're considering no carry as a solution? Have you considered other options?
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