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Old 07-09-2013, 18:55   #101
Bruce M
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Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
......

I have the feeling that most of the police I have met in the USA are police because they have a sense of duty first.

If I needed rescuing, I will take USA police and fire over European any day. The Americans are much more likely to go in even if it means their own ass on the line.

I wonder how much of that is the specific officers and firefighters and how much of it is part of our makeup as a nation. Perhaps not so much now, but my sense is that part of national psyche if you will involves us being a bit more loyal to our jobs, a bit more serious about work. Seems like Europe is and has been ahead of us with things like vacation time, leave, etc.

I have only little contact with a few European officers who have come here to the US. They seem dedicated, but I realize that guys and girls who travel to a different country on vacation and seek out members of their profession may not be typical.
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Old 07-09-2013, 19:20   #102
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what part of my post did you not comprehend?
Must have been all of it?


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Old 07-09-2013, 19:27   #103
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Possibly, but strangely the obstruction charges against Mitchell and his father were dismissed with prejudice. You would think they could prove the obstruction charge if he really was helping the guy inside. Or maybe he was trying to get him to come out. Maybe he was sending video to show him how hopeless a stand-off was. Even if the obstruction charge was justified that did not justify commandeering the house, which was useless for tactical advantage.

The charges against the DV call guy (P. White) were reportedly dropped/dismissed. I really want to know more about the original event.
That explains the style in which the suit was written. It is the functional equivalent of broadcasting troop movements during wartime. Got to make it sound real bad to try to get the city to pay out. We had an activist and lawyer do this all the time to us. They effectively used the city as an ATM. Then the city counsel started following he city attorney's opinion and fought them all and won. No more lawsuits. The only case left as far as I know is the one that went to the USSC and they got pimp slapped. He is begging for a settlement because odds are now he will lose and pay up. It ain't fun anymore when the Supremes tell you to STFU.

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Old 07-09-2013, 20:05   #104
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When The Constitution was written, the states representatives were very concerned that the citizens needed to be protected from a too powerful government, like the one just defeated (King George III). They then wrote the first ten amendments (The Bill of Rights) to protect the people. To me, the intent of 3A was to prevent private homes from being taken over by armed government representatives without due process. Police were unknown at the time. I feel the intent, if not the words, of the 3A were clearly violated.
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Old 07-09-2013, 20:44   #105
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Originally Posted by ArtyGuy View Post
You misunderstood him. Even in Afghanistan, 3/75 doesn't operate under ISAF ROE. That particular task force conducts operation under a counter terrorism mission and falls under US ROE-- not to mention no non-Afghan force is subject to Afghan law. So when they do a raid, they swoop in on helos, have CAS on station (fast movers and the AC-130), armed to the teeth, and can level the compound, and those near the target compound), the second they meet resistance. Even if they don't meet resistance, they can round people up for detention and off they go. They also can grab anything out of the house for evidence and it WILL be used against detainee.


All this is done without a warrant and no fear of a civil suit.

That sound like something any PD SWAT can do?


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So minus the CAS, what is the difference? The police are well within their rights to round up any "medium height, medium build, black males" in the area as long as they "meet the description".

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Old 07-09-2013, 20:46   #106
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Originally Posted by Bruce M View Post
Two words come to mind "la mordida"
Think UK, Netherlands, Germany, and Scandinavia. Most of the time their cops aren't armed and they don't have instances of cop massacres ala the Hollywood bank robbery.
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Old 07-09-2013, 20:51   #107
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With hindsight, everybody could have saved the day.
Not quite so simple when it's happening in real time without the advantage of knowing all that will be known after.

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Assuming you are a cop, you have a vested financial interest in locking your fellow citizens in cages because of the substances they decide to consume. Your opinion on the subject is about as valid as the average NORML spokesman.
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Old 07-09-2013, 20:51   #108
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Are you positive they are select fire? They may be AR type, but I'll bet they are semi-auto.
My agency has a number of M16's they got from the military through the DRMO program. All have been converted to semi-auto only.

The only auto guns I know of in a VERY large radius are a few MP5's that have 3 round burst or semi-auto. I could hold all of those myself.
I have trigger time on my local dpt's rifles.
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Old 07-09-2013, 20:55   #109
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See, see! Police are bad. All police.
We should just disband all LE and in place give each household and business a glock and an M-4.
See, much better.
I look at cops like I do Muslims. Even if only a small minority of them are violent without cause, most of the "good" ones support that minority.
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Old 07-09-2013, 20:59   #110
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Is this a reincarnation?


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Old 07-09-2013, 21:21   #111
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Originally Posted by Paul53 View Post
When The Constitution was written, the states representatives were very concerned that the citizens needed to be protected from a too powerful government, like the one just defeated (King George III). They then wrote the first ten amendments (The Bill of Rights) to protect the people. To me, the intent of 3A was to prevent private homes from being taken over by armed government representatives without due process. Police were unknown at the time. I feel the intent, if not the words, of the 3A were clearly violated.
There were no police as we know them however there was a patchwork or marshals, constables, and night watchmen. The first departments as we know them were in big cities wanting to professionalize law enforcement. Since then as society has gotten more violent departments have responded in time. Have you ever seen violent crime rates in graph form? 1965 was a major turning point.

One should also look up Darius Quimby. His murder was the first law enforcement LODD in America. He was serving a trespass warrant. Simple misdo warrant and takes a bullet. Just like a Vallejo cop a few years back.

The founders knew a difference between LE and mil.

If you want to argue they would not like the LE of today then someone could argue that we should be limited to the firearms of the colonial era.

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Old 07-09-2013, 21:28   #112
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When The Constitution was written, the states representatives were very concerned that the citizens needed to be protected from a too powerful government
The Bor was written to restrain the FEDERAL govt. they were creating, not the States. Until the passage of the 14th amendment NONE of the BOR applied to the States only the Federal Govt. Since 1878 The piecemeal process of incorporation of the Amendments has continued. One of the Amendments STILL not incorporated against the State by SCOTUS is the 3rd Amendment. the 3rd has been incorporated against the states in the jurisdiction of the Federal Appeals court 2nd district only at the present time.

That said I think it highly unlikely that SCOTUS would NOT incorporate it on a national level if a case ever made it to them.

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Police were unknown at the time
Not true the night watch operated in colonial times well before the establish ment of the U.S. their duties were fire watch and suppression of criminal activity.

New amsterdam (Now NYC) began 1625
Boston 1635
Philadelphia 1700

Th office of Sheriff made it to the colonies beginning in Virginia 1634.

Thomas Jefferson call the office of Sheriff "The most important of all the executive offices of the county.
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Old 07-09-2013, 22:14   #113
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Originally Posted by Jose the carwash man View Post
Think UK, Netherlands, Germany, and Scandinavia. Most of the time their cops aren't armed and they don't have instances of cop massacres ala the Hollywood bank robbery.
I have seen plenty of German cops. I even got to be the guest of the German police in Fraknfurt Flughafen when there was a visa mix-up.

The ONLY time I have seen German police on duty without firearms (armed as you say) is when they are in riot gear.

Go have a walk in a German airport. Those guys in police uniforms walking in pairs, one carrying an real full-auto MP5...that is armed.

My visit to Copenhagen, I saw police carrying machine machine guns.

Netherlands (Holland), the police all have guns.

Switzerland, everyone has guns. The guying an STG90 machine gun in civilian clothes at the train station. He is reporting for his three weeks army duty. I have never seen a Swiss officer without a gun.

So, my small sampling, you are wrong.

BTW, you do realize the new H&K P30 pistol is the Bundespolizei pistol (German Police)? Why, if the police were unarmed, would they have ordered enough to re-outfit the police?
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Old 07-09-2013, 22:22   #114
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Assuming you are a cop, you have a vested financial interest in locking your fellow citizens in cages because of the substances they decide to consume. Your opinion on the subject is about as valid as the average NORML spokesman.
Wow. I cannot believe I am defending TBOs position.

But, no if you are a cop you dont have a vested interest in locking people in a cage. People locked in cages dont pay taxes. People who dont pay taxes dont pay police salaries.

If you said that they have a vested interest in property seizures where the PD gets to keep the property, yes, but vested interest in removing a tax payer and turning him/her into a net tax burden, no they dont have a vested interest.

Really, a cop has a vested interest in doing nothing. An arrest creates a lot of work for a cop. It would seem to me that what they would have a vested interest in doing is collecting a paycheck and NOT arresting people. Arrests indicate crime. Crimes are reported and data collected. High crime areas look like police are doing a poor job. So, simply ignoring crime and collecting a paycheck would be in their vested interest.
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Old 07-09-2013, 22:28   #115
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Not true the night watch operated in colonial times well before the establish ment of the U.S. their duties were fire watch and suppression of criminal activity.
The Okie Corral

Nightwatch in Lausanne
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Home/Arc...ml?cid=5699170



The Okie Corral

Police in Lausanne

I use Lausanne because it is one of the few cities in the Western world that still has an official, active nightwatch. The nightwatch has been active every night since 1405. I think that spans the time frame we are talking about and clearly shows the difference between nightwatch and police.
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Twice a week? 14 times a month?
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Old 07-09-2013, 22:38   #116
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I wonder how much of that is the specific officers and firefighters and how much of it is part of our makeup as a nation. Perhaps not so much now, but my sense is that part of national psyche if you will involves us being a bit more loyal to our jobs, a bit more serious about work. Seems like Europe is and has been ahead of us with things like vacation time, leave, etc.
Americans are different. We identify our jobs are part of ourselves much more.

Also, I think in general, Americans are much more generous and helpful to others. I think we also have a stronger sense of nationality.

Most Americans come together and stand Americans when people do bad things to Americans. When SHTF we tend to stand together much more that Europeans. When a town is threatened with flooding, Americans drop their political differences and get to work protecting the community.

I dont really know how to explain it, but one feels the difference. Europeans temd to wait for the government to take care of things and the govt can fix all. Americans will dig in and help fellow Americans out. I know it is a generalization, but there is a difference in attitude.
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Twice a week? 14 times a month?
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Old 07-09-2013, 22:41   #117
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Heck if you really want to go back there were the Roman vigiles. Today we would consider them a public safety department like Sunnyvale DPS where they have fire and police duties. I think the Port Authority of NJ and NY is a DPS like that.
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:30   #118
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A better source for what the Plaintiffs are actually -

claiming (as known thus far) would be the actual Complaint as filed with the court. Opining based on regurgitated "news reports" is not the best source of accurate info as to what the Counts in the Complaint are, which Constitutional violations they are claiming, etc.

As helpfully posted in the CT thread on this matter, please note:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1493963

Quote:
07-05-2013, 09:48 #22
wO1

It's a federal suit filed in USDC for Nevada, filed on 7-1-2013. As of now, the only thing that's on the docket is the complaint and some administrative stuff - no answer yet from the defendants.

The complaint says this quote, copied verbatim, was present in the police report:

"It was determined to move to 367 Evening Side and attempt to contact Mitchell. If Mitchell answered the door he would be asked to leave. If he refused to leave he would be arrested for Obstructing a Police Officer. If Mitchell refused to answer the door, force entry would be made and Mitchell would be arrested."

If that's true, and Mitchell really didn't have anything to do with why the police were there in the first place (the incident next door), it seems like this probably won't go well for the agency & officer(s).

And if the plaintiff's attorneys are trying this in the court rather than being media whores, that would worry me even more that they had a pretty strong case. Media attention is nice, but doesn't directly bring $.

(Post No #23)

Here's the actual complaint
attached
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Las Vegas.pdf (141.8 KB, 88 views)

[ http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/atta...2&d=1373043537 ]
Even if every word in their Complaint is complete and utter fiction - the best source of that fiction is the Complaint itself. *sigh*
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:35   #119
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Originally Posted by Syclone0538 View Post
Breaking and entering, assault, and kidnapping under color of law?
I, too, was thinking more along these lines. Seems like an easier case for a prosecutor. Something like "unlawful taking" or "unlawful possession".

Maybe even due process clause violation, ie, taking of life, liberty or property without due process.

Just my .02 at the moment. Now I'll read the rest of the posts and see how others came down on this. Of course, these thoughts are presuming that what we have heard is even close to the actual facts!
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:58   #120
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Originally Posted by MB-G26 View Post
claiming (as known thus far) would be the actual Complaint as filed with the court. Opining based on regurgitated "news reports" is not the best source of accurate info as to what the Counts in the Complaint are, which Constitutional violations they are claiming, etc.

........
Even if every word in their Complaint is complete and utter fiction - the best source of that fiction is the Complaint itself. *sigh*
I have read the complaint. It is one side of the story. I want to see the contemporaneous news stories of the original DV event that spawned this. If there was a stand-off that lasted several hours in Hnederson, NV you would think it would make the local newspaper.

I have posted from comments on the Las Vegas newspaper story, so local comments. There is more to the story, but it still doesn't seem quite right, based on the information I have seen.
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Old 07-10-2013, 13:17   #121
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"Militarization of the Police" is biased/emotive bunk, period.
I'm sorry, but I think you're mistaken. Now don't misunderstand me, I'm not one of these rabid infowars suckling morons screaming about the Buildabeargers, the N.W.O. and billions of bullets but police forces throughout the country have, in my lifetime, been on an evolutionary tract that closely matches the military. Were talking tactics, uniforms, equipment and even appearances.

Some of this is necessary and historically based. Their is a very good reason police officers in the 1920's were using Thompson's just like their is a need for today's police officer to be armed with the M4. Expecting any less is simply obtuse and unrealistic and hundreds of dash cam videos will back that up.

From a more personal perspective, I had retired SF guys teaching me how to clear rooms and engage bad guys and that was in a small southern town in a small southern department. Like it or not, that's militarization. In ten years of EMS work several of the things that I learned in my initial training no longer hold true and new skills have been given to me to use, guess where they came from, yeah, the military.
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Old 07-10-2013, 15:16   #122
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Originally Posted by DaleGribble View Post
I'm sorry, but I think you're mistaken. Now don't misunderstand me, I'm not one of these rabid infowars suckling morons screaming about the Buildabeargers, the N.W.O. and billions of bullets but police forces throughout the country have, in my lifetime, been on an evolutionary tract that closely matches the military. Were talking tactics, uniforms, equipment and even appearances.

Some of this is necessary and historically based. Their is a very good reason police officers in the 1920's were using Thompson's just like their is a need for today's police officer to be armed with the M4. Expecting any less is simply obtuse and unrealistic and hundreds of dash cam videos will back that up.

From a more personal perspective, I had retired SF guys teaching me how to clear rooms and engage bad guys and that was in a small southern town in a small southern department. Like it or not, that's militarization. In ten years of EMS work several of the things that I learned in my initial training no longer hold true and new skills have been given to me to use, guess where they came from, yeah, the military.
So are you saying it is a problem that we are using tactics and training that has come from the military?

Should we clear buildings and rooms differently than the military?

Should we not use quick clot because the military had it first?
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Old 07-10-2013, 15:29   #123
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So are you saying it is a problem that we are using tactics and training that has come from the military?

Should we clear buildings and rooms differently than the military?

Should we not use quick clot because the military had it first?
No, absolutely not. That's exactly the opposite of my point. I thought I expressed my opinion more clearly, obviously I did not if you, a well read and rational member of this forum, misunderstood it. I'm in the camp that thinks it's going on, is necessary and is unavoidable.

I was basically saying it's a natural progression that has many justifications. I think law enforcement does itself a large disservice by denying militarization. Over the last 100 years law enforcement has followed a very similar progression as the military and has been consistently staffed by veterans who carry their training, mentality, mannerisms, appearance and traditions into law enforcement. Honestly, look at all the similarities and any lucid person will see the correlation.

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Old 07-10-2013, 15:30   #124
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bullcrap.


The ignorance never seems to cease to amaze me.
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Old 07-10-2013, 15:32   #125
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Wow. I cannot believe I am defending TBOs position.

....

I live on the edge of the Bermuda triangle so I have experienced some fairly unusual events over the years. Frankly this just plain scares me.
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