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Old 07-09-2013, 06:51   #76
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Originally Posted by Jose the carwash man View Post
He was a 3/75 Ranger and while I forget the exact wording, he responded to a video showing a botched SWAT raid with that comment.
You misunderstood him. Even in Afghanistan, 3/75 doesn't operate under ISAF ROE. That particular task force conducts operation under a counter terrorism mission and falls under US ROE-- not to mention no non-Afghan force is subject to Afghan law. So when they do a raid, they swoop in on helos, have CAS on station (fast movers and the AC-130), armed to the teeth, and can level the compound, and those near the target compound), the second they meet resistance. Even if they don't meet resistance, they can round people up for detention and off they go. They also can grab anything out of the house for evidence and it WILL be used against detainee.


All this is done without a warrant and no fear of a civil suit.

That sound like something any PD SWAT can do?


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Old 07-09-2013, 07:01   #77
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Originally Posted by Ohio Copper View Post
I don't have the luxury of a full time tac team. It's me, my shift partners and anybody else coming to the party.
So, had you been Niel Gardner on the day that Columbine happened, which door would have you taken?

You are the lone officer with a side arm. You engage the active shooter and miss with 4 rounds. The active shooter goes back into the building. Door A is that you can call for assistance, report (and whatever else you want to do) and not pursue the active shooter into the school. Door B is you have a side arm that still has ammunition and you can pursue the active shooter into the building returning fire.

I feel very sorry for that officer. I doubt a day goes by when he doesnt question "what if" he had done something differently. Really, no-one knows "what if" but we do know the results of waiting. I suspect that he lives with some level of guilt everyday based upon "what if". That is why I feel sorry for him. I suspect he takes some level of blame onto himself for what two scumbags did. Really the blame falls only on those two scumbags but guilty a conscience doesnt always work that way.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:25   #78
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With hindsight, everybody could have saved the day.
Not quite so simple when it's happening in real time without the advantage of knowing all that will be known after.

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Old 07-09-2013, 07:33   #79
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Originally Posted by TBO View Post
With hindsight, everybody could have saved the day.
Not quite so simple when it's happening in real time without the advantage of knowing all that will be known after.

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I dont even believe that is true. Maybe had the officer pursued, there would have been a dead officer and police would have taken longer to know how to react because of even less information.

Not always does having hindsight mean the day can be saved.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:37   #80
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Patch it looks like you were really really bored. By the way in the 1870s and on police were better armed then soldiers. The police often had repeating rifles while the soldiers had single shot trapdoor rifles.
What led to the policification of the military post 1870? :p

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Old 07-09-2013, 07:39   #81
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.... In most other countries the cops are part of the community first and foremost and *big shocker* actually more interested in the welfare of the people they serve ....
Two words come to mind "la mordida"
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:41   #82
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Militarization of the police. Surplussed military equipment. More LEOs have military background. Rank structure. LE wear uniforms, including combat styled boots. Use of military terminology. DHS getting delivery of 2.7 billion rounds of small arms ammo since January 1 of this year. Expanded/common use of blue coloured roof lights on police cars indicating merger of UN practices (traditionally, U.S. LE/first reponders only used red and white lights).

Probably many more indicia that I missed.


And I have one word for you. DRONES
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:05   #83
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Originally Posted by Jose the carwash man View Post
I think it is that and the "blue wall" that makes cops feel like they are a class above your average civilian. In most other countries the cops are part of the community first and foremost and *big shocker* actually more interested in the welfare of the people they serve when who get's the newest model of Taser or laser sight.
I have not lived in "most other countries". I have however lived in Germany and Switzerland. I currently spend at least 50% of my time in Germany. I am in Germany right now.

With my limited sampling of comparing German, Swiss, and French police, to American police, I would say you are absolutely wrong. I think most American police do the job to "serve the community" to a much much greater extent than the European police I have met.

European police I think tend to be more formal towards people. They have a different way of handling situations. American police are much much more likely to shoot. But when it comes time to crack some skulls with a baton, European police will do it.

I however have gotten the impression that European police (again not all, but most that I have met) are police because it is a stable job. They aren't really doing it because its a higher calling for them.

I have the feeling that most of the police I have met in the USA are police because they have a sense of duty first.

If I needed rescuing, I will take USA police and fire over European any day. The Americans are much more likely to go in even if it means their own ass on the line.
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:16   #84
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no, they did not need an armored vehicle, they needed better training which was not the norm at the time.

I already stated that I had no issue with patrol rifles. and considering the "perps" at Columbine I do not see that a rifle would have made much difference without active shooter training, and even then they probably would have been OK armed with standard for the time weapons against the two untrained teens with crapass guns.
So what were they doing with the fire truck?

What distance did they shoot at the suspects with?

What weapons did the officers have?

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Old 07-09-2013, 08:27   #85
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By now, with FOIA and the magic of the new press, one would think that the information related to the actual (alleged) event would have made its way out. I'll give wnd et al a pass (not really) for not having covered this in two years. But where's the investigative journalism now?

If cops screwed the pooch, so be it. But no reportage whatsoever in two years? And nothing but the plaintiffs' allegations endlessly repeated now? C'mon.
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:40   #86
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I think the 3rd Amendment angle is a stretch; the fact that police have similar equipment to soldiers doesn't make them soldiers, any more than having an AR and fatigues makes me a soldier. But if the allegations are true (and that's a big if), then I'd say the case should be a slam dunk under 4th and 5th Amendment grounds and the officers involved should be imprisoned.
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:41   #87
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See, see! Police are bad. All police.
We should just disband all LE and in place give each household and business a glock and an M-4.
See, much better.
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:52   #88
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I think the 3rd Amendment angle is a stretch; the fact that police have similar equipment to soldiers doesn't make them soldiers, any more than having an AR and fatigues makes me a soldier. But if the allegations are true (and that's a big if), then I'd say the case should be a slam dunk under 4th and 5th Amendment grounds and the officers involved should be imprisoned.
I think you need to look at the term "soldier" in the context it was written just as other BOR amendments have been taken.

At the time the BOR was written, who were the the de-facto police that operated on behalf of King George? They were soldiers. Soldiers at the time were widely used as police. So, given the context in which the BOR was written, I think would apply to police being quartered in a house. Of course we no longer use the term "quartered" either.

Just as the 2nd amendment applies to current arms, and not just muskets, so to does the definition of "soldier" apply. Freedom of speech includes movies and film which were not even thought of when the BOR was written.

The BOR must be read in the context it was written and the words as they were used at the time.


I rarely use the term "bear" to mean possess. How often do you use bear in that manner?
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:01   #89
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I think you need to look at the term "soldier" in the context it was written just as other BOR amendments have been taken.

At the time the BOR was written, who were the the de-facto police that operated on behalf of King George? They were soldiers. Soldiers at the time were widely used as police. So, given the context in which the BOR was written, I think would apply to police being quartered in a house. Of course we no longer use the term "quartered" either.

Just as the 2nd amendment applies to current arms, and not just muskets, so to does the definition of "soldier" apply. Freedom of speech includes movies and film which were not even thought of when the BOR was written.

The BOR must be read in the context it was written and the words as they were used at the time.


I rarely use the term "bear" to mean possess. How often do you use bear in that manner?
Your post relies on the idea that the Founders didn't know what a constable or marshal or town watch was. They did, of course.

And the authors fully understood the difference between a temporary entry, such as a warrant service, and a prolonged stay.

Regardless of the events in play, the 3rd doesn't fit. Except, perhaps, as an attention-getter.
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:05   #90
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Do you believe it is constitutional that the government take over your home without due process, absent exigent circumstances? So it would be OK if they decided to move the vice president into your home? Or maybe the white house chef? They aren't soldiers so it should be OK for them to be quartered in your home. They aren't searching your home, and if you still get to live their too, they aren't seizing it.

A domestic violence call? really? Or a hostage situation?

I wonder what the rest of the story is?

The 3rd has been incorporated against the states by the Supreme court. It has been used relative to the National Guard
(a state entity, except when nationalized).

Last edited by racerford; 07-09-2013 at 09:17..
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:23   #91
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Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
I think you need to look at the term "soldier" in the context it was written just as other BOR amendments have been taken.

At the time the BOR was written, who were the the de-facto police that operated on behalf of King George? They were soldiers. Soldiers at the time were widely used as police. So, given the context in which the BOR was written, I think would apply to police being quartered in a house. Of course we no longer use the term "quartered" either.

Just as the 2nd amendment applies to current arms, and not just muskets, so to does the definition of "soldier" apply. Freedom of speech includes movies and film which were not even thought of when the BOR was written.

The BOR must be read in the context it was written and the words as they were used at the time.


I rarely use the term "bear" to mean possess. How often do you use bear in that manner?
I think you're off base with the argument and I'm pretty certain they knew what a local law enforcement agency was, although they were called something different back then-- constables. Constables date back to the Medieval times. I thinks it's telling they didn't address Constables and focused only on Soldiers.

Edit-

History on constables does show a very military centric role in its beginnings but clearly morphed to what we know as a police function. Since we wrote the 3A based upon British Soldier actions, it is important to note that in the early 1600s, constables in the UK were clearly performing a LE function were appointed by justices of the peace.



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Old 07-09-2013, 09:45   #92
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I've seen this posted several places and have yet to see anyone bring up the fifth amendment vs the third in this case. To me this appears to be a takings case where the use of the property was taken by the Gov w/o just compensation or due process.
Good point!
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:14   #93
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I am sometimes the only officer in service in 26 square miles or so. My backup can be as much as 10-20 minutes out (and I'm lucky, there's guys on here who are REALLY on their own). My patrol rifle at least will keep me in the fight. I don't think I can do much engaging an active shooter in Walmart with a glock 22, some of those aisles are 75-125 yards long. It's needed.


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what part of my post did you not comprehend?
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:27   #94
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
By now, with FOIA and the magic of the new press, one would think that the information related to the actual (alleged) event would have made its way out. I'll give wnd et al a pass (not really) for not having covered this in two years. But where's the investigative journalism now?

If cops screwed the pooch, so be it. But no reportage whatsoever in two years? And nothing but the plaintiffs' allegations endlessly repeated now? C'mon.
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:21   #95
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
By now, with FOIA and the magic of the new press, one would think that the information related to the actual (alleged) event would have made its way out. I'll give wnd et al a pass (not really) for not having covered this in two years. But where's the investigative journalism now?

If cops screwed the pooch, so be it. But no reportage whatsoever in two years? And nothing but the plaintiffs' allegations endlessly repeated now? C'mon.
True investigative journalism might provide context (for instance, does anyone wonder about the presence of a command post some distance away from the residence in question?).

This emotion based journalism requires a quick, reactionary story (without context) to get the reader's anger up. This achieves the desired agenda driven result, and since journalist are lazy, will simply be repeated by other news outlets without a minutes worth of analysis.

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Old 07-09-2013, 11:29   #96
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Is it just me, or does the story not seem to make any sense to anyone else?

"Henderson city police called Anthony Mitchell that morning to say they needed his house to gain "tactical advantage" in a domestic violence investigation in the neighborhood"

"police smashed through the door"

Seems to me like smashing through the door would kinda negate any tactical advantage there might have been, acting as a great big alarm bell to neighbors, no?
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Old 07-09-2013, 17:53   #97
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Story is now on Fox News. They are not just depending on 3rd amendment violations, but 4th and 14th as well.

I keep looking for the domestic violence call cited in the court papers and cannot find it to get a better description of the incident being watched.
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Old 07-09-2013, 18:24   #98
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Interesting, just read the house they occupied for tactical advantage was not next door , but 2 doors down, and did not have a clear view of the house with the domestic violence call. Also, the person that involved in the domestic violence call also had charges against them dropped, according to locals commenting on one story.

It was also said that Mitchell was on the phone with and sending video to the guy whose house the SWAT team were watching. Apparently the SWAT team did not like that. I wish I could find contemporary reports of the incident.
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Old 07-09-2013, 18:39   #99
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Interesting, just read the house they occupied for tactical advantage was not next door , but 2 doors down, and did not have a clear view of the house with the domestic violence call. Also, the person that involved in the domestic violence call also had charges against them dropped, according to locals commenting on one story.

It was also said that Mitchell was on the phone with and sending video to the guy whose house the SWAT team were watching. Apparently the SWAT team did not like that. I wish I could find contemporary reports of the incident.
This was on a barricaded subject?

If that dude had greased cops because of his actions he would be a slam dunk for conspiracy to commit murder.

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Old 07-09-2013, 18:49   #100
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This was on a barricaded subject?

If that dude had greased cops because of his actions he would be a slam dunk for conspiracy to commit murder.

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Possibly, but strangely the obstruction charges against Mitchell and his father were dismissed with prejudice. You would think they could prove the obstruction charge if he really was helping the guy inside. Or maybe he was trying to get him to come out. Maybe he was sending video to show him how hopeless a stand-off was. Even if the obstruction charge was justified that did not justify commandeering the house, which was useless for tactical advantage.

The charges against the DV call guy (P. White) were reportedly dropped/dismissed. I really want to know more about the original event.

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