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Old 07-07-2013, 13:15   #76
3glkdog
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Originally Posted by aircarver View Post
Read a report that it rolled away and ended up midfield, too far away to show up in the close up pix of the plane.

The Okie Corral

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It would be intersting if the engine in this picture is the right #2 engine, and the one we see next to the right wing is the left #1 engine.

Last edited by 3glkdog; 07-07-2013 at 14:06..
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Old 07-07-2013, 13:22   #77
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Originally Posted by aircarver View Post
Has been examined.

The BAC crash was blamed on engine failures from frozen slush fuel.

The AAR crash has witnesses citing that the pilots came up on the power too little, too late, but that the engines did respond.

Main body of opinion seems to be a bad visual approach 'cuz there were no visual aids and no glideslope in operation.

.
Damn. I guess the only good news is how robust the 777 airframe seems to be. Holding together like that saved a lot of lives.
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Old 07-07-2013, 13:23   #78
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Originally Posted by 3glkdog View Post
It would be intersting if the engine in this picture is the right #1 engine, and the one we see next to the right wing is the left #2 engine.
#1 engine is on the left wing. Count from left to right.
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Old 07-07-2013, 14:05   #79
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From the skimpy reports I've read, it sounds like what we used to call the ILS was definitely out of service. But didn't that airport have VASI lights (Visual Approach Slope Indicator lights)? Were they also out of service?

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One of the end of runway photos shows 4 concrete pads for the vasi's (papi's ?) one light remains, the others are cleaned off by the plane passing over them.

They had been moved as part of the threshold displacement, but whether they were working yet is a matter of differing opinion. Half the pilots commenting say they were working, half say they weren't. ...

.
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Old 07-07-2013, 14:09   #80
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Originally Posted by Bushflyr View Post
#1 engine is on the left wing. Count from left to right.
Yeah I corrected my post. What I wanted to say was it would be intersting if the engine in that pic was the right engine.
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Old 07-07-2013, 14:25   #81
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What I wanted to say was it would be intersting if the engine in that pic was the right engine.
So your question is whether they scraped off an engine on the seawall, besides getting the wheels ?

.
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Old 07-07-2013, 14:33   #82
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This incident highlights the problem with eyewitness testimony. CNN interviewed a guy who saw the crash. He said the wings broke off and the plane cartwheeled. I am sure that is what he thought he saw, but pictures of the plane post crash clearly show those things didn't happen.

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I think it would be great to couple that "eyewitness" statement (not "testimony" BTW) with the pictures as a permanent example of the reliability of witness statements.
In your rush to bash how bad "eyewitnesses" are, maybe you should go look at video of the plane as the wings lifted off the runway to nearly a vertical position and appeared to cartwheel and then the pilot (or maybe dumb luck) go it back down on its belly.
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Old 07-07-2013, 14:42   #83
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In your rush to bash how bad "eyewitnesses" are, maybe you should go look at video of the plane as the wings lifted off the runway to nearly a vertical position and appeared to cartwheel and then the pilot (or maybe dumb luck) go it back down on its belly.
CNN.com

Sure as hell did ! ... ...

.
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Old 07-07-2013, 14:42   #84
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...maybe you should go look at video of the plane as the wings lifted off the runway to nearly a vertical position and appeared to cartwheel and then the pilot (or maybe dumb luck) go it back down on its belly.
What video?
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Old 07-07-2013, 15:14   #85
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What video?
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/07/us/pla...html?hpt=hp_t1
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Old 07-07-2013, 15:19   #86
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On a related note, can anyone suggest a couple of good discussion boards for GA topics? I am getting back to flying and could use a good G T style hangout.
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Old 07-07-2013, 15:21   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
In your rush to bash how bad "eyewitnesses" are, maybe you should go look at video of the plane as the wings lifted off the runway to nearly a vertical position and appeared to cartwheel and then the pilot (or maybe dumb luck) go it back down on its belly.

Actually, the video pretty much bears out what he was talking about.

The wings clearly didn't break off, or seperate, and the plane didn't cartwheel......
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Old 07-07-2013, 15:22   #88
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Wow. It's amazing that more people weren't killed. It will be interesting to see what caused the crash...simple pilot error, navigation equipment malfunction, etc.
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Old 07-07-2013, 15:23   #89
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In your rush to bash how bad "eyewitnesses" are, maybe you should go look at video of the plane as the wings lifted off the runway to nearly a vertical position and appeared to cartwheel and then the pilot (or maybe dumb luck) go it back down on its belly.
I'm going with dumb luck. Looks like it hit, knocking off the gear/tail/etc., twisted, had the wing catch some air, but managed to be slow enough or caught enough to slam it into the ground still in an upright position. Awesome it did though.
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Old 07-07-2013, 15:54   #90
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This is totally irrelevant, but this video makes me think of how different times are now compared to the Hindenberg disaster when people were so terribly shocked that the announcer said " oh my god".
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Old 07-07-2013, 16:38   #91
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Prayers for everyone involved in this crash.

My wifes friend was supposed to be on this flight as she has been visiting her husband who is stationed in Korea but she changed her return flight the day before so she could spend a few more days with him. It cost her alot of money to change the ticket but it may have been well worth it. She woke up over there and saaw the news and could not believe it.
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Old 07-07-2013, 16:38   #92
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LOL right. Try putting a transport category jet down on a 4494 ft runway and see how that works out for you.
Too bad the SFO Runway 10/28 is 11,870 x 200. Nice try.
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Old 07-07-2013, 16:59   #93
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In your rush to bash how bad "eyewitnesses" are, maybe you should go look at video of the plane as the wings lifted off the runway to nearly a vertical position and appeared to cartwheel and then the pilot (or maybe dumb luck) go it back down on its belly.
It didn't cartwheel- the nose rose up and went back down. And the wings didn't fall off. So what the witness described did not happen.
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Old 07-07-2013, 19:37   #94
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Yeah, if you look at the last 8 or so readings on the tracklog, HERE, you can see he was diving pretty hard from 1400 to 300 feet. (Normal descent rate is 700 fpm.) He would have been unspooled at that descent rate and wouldn't have had time to spool up when he realized he was too low.
Excellent info. Great find. Yea, looks like he was coming in to high and was trying to bleed off some altitude. But dropping @ 1400/fpm as low as 800 ft, seems a bit extreme!

From the video of the actual crash looks like he may have got into a stall with the AOA that high. The aircraft DID come close to cartwheeling. After seeing that video, it is AMAZING that the fuselage stayed intact!
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Old 07-07-2013, 19:52   #95
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It didn't cartwheel- the nose rose up and went back down. And the wings didn't fall off. So what the witness described did not happen.
Probably just nomenclature.

The tail horizontal and vertical stabilizers broke off. They look like wings to a novice, may be to this particular witness.
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Old 07-07-2013, 20:10   #96
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Too bad the SFO Runway 10/28 is 11,870 x 200. Nice try.
I know how long SFO is. I fly in there regularly. My point was landing long isn't always an option.
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Old 07-07-2013, 20:31   #97
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Too bad the SFO Runway 10/28 is 11,870 x 200. Nice try.
There are several useless things to a pilot. One of them is the runway behind you.

Landing long can get you in trouble also. There is a proper and desired touchdown point. Anything grossly short or long of that ads danger. Brakes, thrust reversers, etc. don't always work as advertised.
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Old 07-07-2013, 20:53   #98
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The NTSB said it could take a year to determine why it crashed.....???? Really? It's very apparent from the videos out there that the pilot hit the rocks at the end of the runway because he was too damned low....The black boxes will give us some data as well....this was pilot error.....
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Old 07-07-2013, 21:53   #99
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It would be intersting if the engine in this picture is the right #2 engine, and the one we see next to the right wing is the left #1 engine.
The plane reportedly did a 360 spin on the ground, so who knows when and which way the engines flew off.
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Old 07-07-2013, 22:03   #100
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#2 engine ended up farther down the runway on the right side, out of view of most of the photo/vid coverage. Main body on most debris ended up left of the runway.

Saw it today from the cockpit.
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