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Old 11-14-2013, 15:22   #101
tonyparson
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Originally Posted by ShallNotBeInfringed View Post
nothing more needs to be said.
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Old 11-14-2013, 16:47   #102
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Originally Posted by Roger1079 View Post
In my opinion, and I am sure many will agree, you truly have no business teaching anyone anything regarding firearm safety unless you are willing to remove the negligent safety practices from your class. Condoning the use of a safety device that involves sticking something inside the trigger guard by someone with little or no firearms training is a certain recipe for an accidental discharge and possible legal liability on your part if you are teaching these methods as part of a firearms safety course.

I gather you have never seen one of these, or worked with one.

You install them without placing your finger inside the trigger guard, and you remove it without placing your finger inside the trigger guard.

The block goes behind the trigger, blocking any possible backwards travel.

I show them in class to Glock owners, but I do not have them use them on the range. I do not sell them in my classroom.

I do have a 20 plus year history of personally using and training with them. I took my Concealed Carry test using one. My instructor did not seem too troubled by it.



All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.Arthur Schopenhauer
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The Obama Trojan Horse admin is in truth stage two,
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Old 11-14-2013, 21:53   #103
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Originally Posted by ShallNotBeInfringed View Post
I gather you have never seen one of these, or worked with one.

You install them without placing your finger inside the trigger guard, and you remove it without placing your finger inside the trigger guard.

The block goes behind the trigger, blocking any possible backwards travel.

I show them in class to Glock owners, but I do not have them use them on the range. I do not sell them in my classroom.

I do have a 20 plus year history of personally using and training with them. I took my Concealed Carry test using one. My instructor did not seem too troubled by it.



All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.Arthur Schopenhauer
German philosopher (1788 - 1860)

The Obama Trojan Horse admin is in truth stage two,
Nice job of maintaining your cool in the face of strong resistance.

Having real-life personal experience to draw from is a great advantage. Conventional wisdom isn't an automatic winner in an argument against 20 years of experience.
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Old 11-14-2013, 22:46   #104
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Originally Posted by ShallNotBeInfringed View Post

However, when I start teaching the class as the Instructor, and being the CRSO on the range, in about 6 months, all Glocks in my class, in the hands of green Glock students, will be issued a Trigger Block Safety, and trained how to use it, and will use it on the range. LEOs and Glock trained people coming in to re-qualify for a CHP, I will allow to qualify on the range as they would normally use their firearm, but will be offered to try the trigger block safety.

Is this necessary? Is this too safe? Just exactly what is too safe?
From post #25, you made the above statement.

As an instructor, I have no issue with educating students on products that can be utilized to make firearms safer.
However, any item that interferes with the operation of the firearm, as this product does, by inserting it behind the trigger to block its movement, is strictly forbidden in my book.
I say this for strict liability reasons. I don't mention items like this; if the manufacturer didn't make it, supply it with the firearm, or outright endorse it. I don't mention it.
You mentioned "green Glock students." I personally do not believe these are candidates for this product. Being new and unfamiliar with the firearm platform is challenge enough. Especially if one is new to handguns or firearms altogether. I believe this is a product to be considered by those who are proficient with their firearm and can demonstrate sound firearms handling skills before I would introduce them to such a product.

I take no issue with your use of the product. I commend you on your belief in what it offers you in the regards of safety. That is your right and preference.
I also commend you for being open and sharing this on the forum.
This place can get scary sometimes (Humor inserted at this point do to my lengthy post)

Unfortunately, ND's happen and always will. What I would hate to see is someone neglecting the basic firearms rules while practicing with this item and being injured, injuring someone else, or worse.
Things can happen under the slightest amount of stress for people going through a firearms course.
Case in point:
The individual selected to fill the position of back-up firearms instructor at my last job, was knowledgeable and competent in his firearms skills. I recommended this person to his supervisor for the position, as my back-up instructor took the lead position when I left.
This individual suffered a case of "Glock Leg." He was at a NRA LEO course a few months back. Under a lot of stress and failed to remove his finger from the trigger as he holstered his Glock 22. His co-instructor/shooter partner for the day tried to warn him at the last second when he saw his finger on the trigger as he holstered. It was to late.
I won't get into the reasons for the stress, however, this is a person that carried a handgun everyday for his job and never had an issue regarding firearms safety.

Things happen even though they shouldn't. As instructors we need ensure we do our part to reduce the risks of ND's in our courses. The introduction of an item like this only raises the risk in my view, especially with new shooters or those new to the Glock.

I'm not telling how to run your future classes, I am just asking you to consider the risks.
Classroom intro to this product, that is your choose. Just not on the range, would be mine.
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Old 11-14-2013, 23:21   #105
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OP is full of fail in my book, the fact that he says he's an "instructor" is bothering *sigh*.

I've been carrying a gun almost four years now and have been shooting long before that. Mostly glocks I've carried with a couple revolvers in the past. A good holster and common sense will get you a long way.

I've had holstered loaded glocks IWB without the gimmick device. I've jumped, jogged, ripped my pants off like I'm in the nba, I've sat them on a table and demanded them to shoot, they just won't do it!!

Maybe I'm doing something wrong???
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Old 11-15-2013, 07:26   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martin-curtis View Post

You mentioned "green Glock students." I personally do not believe these are candidates for this product. Being new and unfamiliar with the firearm platform is challenge enough. Especially if one is new to handguns or firearms....


Unfortunately, ND's happen and always will. What I would hate to see is someone neglecting the basic firearms rules while practicing with this item and being injured, injuring someone else, or worse.

Things can happen under the slightest amount of stress....

Things happen even though they shouldn't. As instructors we need ensure we do our part to reduce the risks of ND's in our courses.
Your comments relate to safe Glock handling while receiving instruction at the range. However, students, especially those who are new to firearms in general and new to Glocks in particular, will also be handling and carrying their Glock away from the range.

Knowing that stress and distractions can result in NDs with experienced gun handlers, how do you instruct students to carry a Glock when they leave your supervision at the range? They don't have the level of skill or savvy that comes from experience and more training. All they have is basic instruction, a loaded gun, a holster and a desire to carry in public. Is the admonition to "keep your finger off of the trigger till you're ready to shoot" the extent of your guidance?

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 11-15-2013 at 07:52..
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Old 11-15-2013, 08:49   #107
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
Your comments relate to safe Glock handling while receiving instruction at the range. However, students, especially those who are new to firearms in general and new to Glocks in particular, will also be handling and carrying their Glock away from the range.

Knowing that stress and distractions can result in NDs with experienced gun handlers, how do you instruct students to carry a Glock when they leave your supervision at the range? They don't have the level of skill or savvy that comes from experience and more training. All they have is basic instruction, a loaded gun, a holster and a desire to carry in public. Is the admonition to "keep your finger off of the trigger till you're ready to shoot" the extent of your guidance?
I know you were addressing someone else. However, If you thoroughly (and repeatedly) remind the students that they are carrying a loaded weapon, there is nothing else that you can do.

You cannot be with them 24/7 to ensure they don't make a mistake.
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Old 11-15-2013, 09:25   #108
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Forcing Students To Use Trigger Block Safeties

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShallNotBeInfringed View Post
I was an RSO today with 15 concealed carry students. Range was about 100 rounds each student. Test is 30 rounds in a FBI Q target, 70% in to pass. 3', 6', 9' 12'. Never seen anyone fail it.

Two students had Glocks. 19 & 22 models. Both were new to Glocks, one was a new shooter.

Both were using Serpa II holsters.

It is interesting training people to use a safe action pistol with no external safeties, when I would never train or use my Glock in that way.

My personal commitment to safety, ammo never enters my Glock, unless the Trigger Block Safety is installed.

When I did my Concealed Carry Class, I qualified for my permit, using the trigger block safety. It was an extra step, but my personal fear of Glock Leg, is great. I made sure my students today were ever mindful of holstering their gun, and where their trigger finger was in relation to their gun. I do this with every student, but I am a little more cautious with Glocks.

This was not my class, I was one of five RSO's on the line.

However, when I start teaching the class as the Instructor, and being the CRSO on the range, in about 6 months, all Glocks in my class, in the hands of green Glock students, will be issued a Trigger Block Safety, and trained how to use it, and will use it on the range. LEOs and Glock trained people coming in to re-qualify for a CHP, I will allow to qualify on the range as they would normally use their firearm, but will be offered to try the trigger block safety.

Is this necessary? Is this too safe? Just exactly what is too safe?
I am not sure where you will be training folks but I cannot imagine a reputable training organization allowing you to follow this practice.

As for the Serpa this holster REQUIRES USING YOUR TRIGGER FINGER TO UNHOLSTER THE FIREARM PLACING THAT FINGER VERY CLOSE TO THE TRIGGER GUARD. THIS IS A TERRIBLE DESIGN.
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Old 11-15-2013, 09:47   #109
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There are two causes of firearms accidents (barring ignorance or stupidity which a mechanical device cannot do anything about either) 1. Fatigue 2. Distraction.
Mechanical devices fail. Better to rely on the prime safety device that is always with you: your brain.
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Old 11-15-2013, 10:28   #110
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Originally Posted by eaglefrq View Post
If you thoroughly (and repeatedly) remind the students that they are carrying a loaded weapon, there is nothing else that you can do.

You cannot be with them 24/7 to ensure they don't make a mistake.
I pretty much agree with your statement.

While the instructor can't be with the student 24/7, lessons properly conveyed should remain with the novice forever. Teaching firearm handling practices is a very serious responsibility. It is also an awesome opportunity to prepare students for a lifetime of responsible gun ownership.

I'm suggesting considerable emphasis should be placed on safety training where striker fired pistols are involved, with Glocks in particular because of the 5# trigger. Students should walk away with a clear understanding of the benefits and limitations of the Glock 'safe action' trigger mechanism.

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Old 11-15-2013, 10:46   #111
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When I first started to carry my G26 I had a similar safety on my Glock that required the left hand to disengage:

I carried a loaded magazine and an empty chamber.

I had to draw, then rack the slide with my LEFT hand before I could shoot.

I have since discovered that no matter how many hours a day I carry that Glock, the trigger will not pull itself while it's in the holster. I now carry 11+1 (Pearce baseplate extension, you know) and am perfectly comfortable with it.
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Old 11-15-2013, 11:09   #112
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Originally Posted by F-111 John View Post
When I first started to carry my G26 I had a similar safety on my Glock that required the left hand to disengage:

I carried a loaded magazine and an empty chamber.

I had to draw, then rack the slide with my LEFT hand before I could shoot.

I have since discovered that no matter how many hours a day I carry that Glock, the trigger will not pull itself while it's in the holster. I now carry 11+1 (Pearce baseplate extension, you know) and am perfectly comfortable with it.
Achieving comfort and confidence based on competence is the path a wise man travels. Most novices are only at the beginning of that path.
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Old 11-15-2013, 11:31   #113
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
I pretty much agree with your statement.

While the instructor can't be with the student 24/7, lessons properly conveyed should remain with the novice forever. Teaching firearm handling practices is a very serious responsibility. It is also an awesome opportunity to prepare students for a lifetime of responsible gun ownership.

I'm suggesting considerable emphasis should be placed on safety training where striker fired pistols are involved, with Glocks in particular because of the 5# trigger. Students should walk away with a clear understanding of the benefits and limitations of the Glock 'safe action' trigger mechanism.
I agree with your post.

As far as the Saf-T-Blok goes, I do not agree with introducing or requiring aftermarket "safety" accessories. That option should be up to the person to research and decide if they want to use something like that.
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Old 11-15-2013, 17:24   #114
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
Your comments relate to safe Glock handling while receiving instruction at the range. However, students, especially those who are new to firearms in general and new to Glocks in particular, will also be handling and carrying their Glock away from the range.

Knowing that stress and distractions can result in NDs with experienced gun handlers, how do you instruct students to carry a Glock when they leave your supervision at the range? They don't have the level of skill or savvy that comes from experience and more training. All they have is basic instruction, a loaded gun, a holster and a desire to carry in public. Is the admonition to "keep your finger off of the trigger till you're ready to shoot" the extent of your guidance?
No, the extent of my guidance is not just limited to "keep your finger off of the trigger till you're ready to shoot."
I harp on safety, and I definitely am not going to sit here and cover what we all should know. As their instructor, safety is what is expected of me on top of everything else covered.
When people are done and have earned my signature on their paperwork for their permit to carry, they will have had many examples shared with them of real world situations in which people have been injured or killed due to negligence.
I am not a product salesmen as far as firearms and accessories. I only give my opinion when asked. My job is to ensure they understand the state laws regarding carrying a concealed (or open carry) firearm and using on for self defense. It is also my duty to fail anyone who does not display responsible gun handling skills or a mature attitude towards firearms and their use.
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Old 11-15-2013, 17:33   #115
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Check out this video on YouTube:

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Old 11-15-2013, 18:07   #116
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Many of you scoff at the few of us that use trigger block safeties on our Glocks. I was banned from a Glock forum for even mentioning people should try one in their Glocks.

A couple of days ago, I retired my 20 year old Glock 20, and purchased a Gen 3 Glock 20SF. The Safe-T-Blok from the old trigger does not work on post 98 production Glocks, so I ordered a new one.

Came today, and guess what? Left Hand. EEEEEKKKK! That is not exactly what I said, but this is a family friendly forum, so call that close enough.

As I was ordering another one, right hand this time, I discovered, nothing could be safer, than making it impossible for the right index finger alone, to shoot the firearm. Completely and Utterly Impossible!

Left hand on chest, right hand on Glock, pull gun, rotate gun, moving gun forward, left hand merges with right hand, left hand pops out trigger block during extension of arms (limbs), right finger engages trigger, BANG.

I will start training this way, and keep this thread posted as to my progress, and failures.

I will need to further modify my Serpa II holsters to now accept a left hand trigger block safety, takes just a minute to remove a little plastic from the holster, not changing the design function.

Literarily License: I give full license for all Trigger Block Safety detractors to engage me fully in this thread. Please no "Your Momma Wears Army Boots, or inbreeding comments (all true, but uncalled for in forum banter), but a full decision of everything Safe Action Trigger is welcome!

General Glocking

General Glocking

Sorry but that is one of the silliest things I have ever seen done with a Glock, or any pistol for that matter. There should be absolutely nothing anywhere near that trigger or inside the trigger guard, period.
When I see people putting things inside the trigger guard, near the trigger it makes me cringe. PLEASE STOP teaching people to do that before someone gets hurt or killed.
That thing is more of a hazard then a safety. You should not be teaching people to be putting these things in their trigger guard, that is deeply disturbing. It's sad to see that an instructor would do such a thing.
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Old 11-15-2013, 19:13   #117
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I think the issue boils down to weighing the odds. If you spend time in dangerous neighborhoods and are very proficient with your firearm, you can probably improve your odds with no safety. If you are not very proficient and live in a safe area, you may be more likely to have an accidental discharge than being attacked. In that case, you may be better off with a safety engaged (or no gun at all).

I live in a safe area and I don't feel proficient enough to improve my odds with a gun in a high stress situation, so I don't carry at all. I keep my gun in a quick access safe at home, but would only try to access it if I felt I could surprise the intruder.

I think everyone must evaluate their specific situation and make their own choices.
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Old 11-16-2013, 07:30   #118
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I think the issue boils down to weighing the odds. If you spend time in dangerous neighborhoods and are very proficient with your firearm, you can probably improve your odds with no safety. If you are not very proficient and live in a safe area, you may be more likely to have an accidental discharge than being attacked. In that case, you may be better off with a safety engaged (or no gun at all).

I live in a safe area and I don't feel proficient enough to improve my odds with a gun in a high stress situation, so I don't carry at all. I keep my gun in a quick access safe at home, but would only try to access it if I felt I could surprise the intruder.

I think everyone must evaluate their specific situation and make their own choices.
This is the kind of self assessment everyone should make, and it should be done with real honesty. Most important is evaluating one's skill level in handling a deadly weapon.

To the OP, I would suggest that telling novice handgun shooters to carry C3 UNTIL sufficient skill and experience are achieved might be preferable to recommending the trigger block.

I don't want this to degenerate into a C1 v. C3 argument, so let this reference to C3 stand alone as a possible means of training new handgun owners.
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Old 11-16-2013, 16:52   #119
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as for the serpa this holster requires using your trigger finger to unholster the firearm placing that finger very close to the trigger guard. This is a terrible design ...
if you are incompetent.
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Old 11-17-2013, 01:08   #120
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I am curious about the use of the trigger block and it's use by a sole Leo. What if the LEO who has the trigger block installed gets zapped. A fellow officer nearby has total weapon fail, and obtains his downed officer's pistol and attempts to fire a shot to save his life, but the trigger fails to move because of it's enhanced safety. The officer now does not stop the threat and is killed accordingly.
I don't see a sole officer being able to carry such an enhancement do the above concern. If it was standard equipment this wouldn't be a concern, but what department would use such a device?
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