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Old 07-07-2013, 13:00   #41
glockman99
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Putting your trigger finger inside the trigger-guard when not totally ready to shoot, even if it is to pop out a piece of plastic, isn't a good idea, IMO.
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Old 07-07-2013, 15:39   #42
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I have not read through all of the posts here....

This being said, the one thing you cannot experience easily is the physiological reactions of your body when you have the unfortunate opportunity to be shot at...those who train constantly involving FoF training and other situation-based programs will have a better opportunity to understand and evaluate their body's response...

You will most likely be learning in the moment...

So, you train using alternate fingers and firearm manipulations to ditch the block, but the very real possibility is that when the poop-hits-the-fan, and the bullets start flying your way (or the BG charges you with a knife, bat, tire iron, etc) you will find a whole new sense of urgency in your actions...if your left arm has been injured you can add pain into then equation...and now you have to interrupt your brain cycling to change to a different tactic at ridding yourself of the block.

How may bullets will be let fly while you do that? How many times will the BG stick you, or smack you with his implement of choice? Enough to incapacitate you...or a loved one?

If you cannot, or will not accept the responsibility for using the Glock as made, perhaps you should change shooting platforms to one that offers an external safety, ie 1911 (ambi safety can be operated with both extremities or portions thereof), or perhaps a Sig with a DA/SA system.

Or, get a revolver.

Personally, I think you are either trolling or you just need to understand yourself and the firearm better.

Just my thoughts
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Old 07-07-2013, 20:28   #43
ShallNotBeInfringed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
Glocks come from the factory with an owner's manual that advises carrying with an chamber empty. I wonder what liability might accompany teaching students to carry the pistol in a manner contrary to the manufacturer's operating instructions.

Firearms instruction is tricky business, from a liability standpoint. Adhering to strict tenets of safety must be key among the instructor's responsibilities.

I don't know how teaching with an aftermarket safety device fits into the scheme of responsible teaching practices. Seems it would be ok unless the device is generally thought to add more risk than safety value.

Very good post. However, suggesting everyone carry a Glock with ammo only in the magazine, is more unpopular than my suggestion of a trigger block safety.

How many here, have their chamber free of ammo while carrying a Glock? I would guess about 10%. So that would mean, 90% of the good people here are using their sidearm outside the manufactures recommendations?

Looking through on line Glock owners manuals, I see no reference to not carrying the Glock pistol with one in the chamber. Maybe I am missing that reference. What page number?

Last edited by ShallNotBeInfringed; 07-07-2013 at 21:09..
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Old 07-07-2013, 21:20   #44
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Just a note, I will not participate in this thread, if we as a group forget one thing, safety. Name calling, making fun of people, is uncalled for, and the few that have done that in this thread, should go back and adjust your posts.

This is why I am here, to divert this action, any way possible.

Safety First!

General Glocking
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Old 07-07-2013, 21:35   #45
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Originally Posted by ShallNotBeInfringed View Post

Looking through on line Glock owners manuals, I see no reference to not carrying the Glock pistol with one in the chamber. Maybe I am missing that reference. What page number?
Page 13: "Caution: Do not carry the pistol in the ready to fire condition. This is not the recommended safe-carrying method for civilian use."

Last edited by misfit356tsw; 07-07-2013 at 21:36..
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Old 07-07-2013, 22:06   #46
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A lot of noise...
Boo hoo.
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Old 07-07-2013, 22:28   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misfit356tsw View Post
Page 13: "Caution: Do not carry the pistol in the ready to fire condition. This is not the recommended safe-carrying method for civilian use."
That being said, I'd bet the majority of us who carry a glock EDC have one in the chamber. Just MHO


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Old 07-07-2013, 22:36   #48
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That being said, I'd bet the majority of us who carry a glock EDC have one in the chamber. Just MHO


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The OP asked what page number in the Glock manual it said not to carry with one in the chamber.

I was making no statement on what the majority of concealed carriers do in real life, nor was I stating that it is better to follow Glock's advice.

Have a great evening.

Last edited by misfit356tsw; 07-07-2013 at 22:37..
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Old 07-07-2013, 22:43   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misfit356tsw View Post
Page 13: "Caution: Do not carry the pistol in the ready to fire condition. This is not the recommended safe-carrying method for civilian use."

Not in older manuals, that I can see.

However, being presented with manufactures guidelines, I would be less than prudent teaching a gun class for CHP people, any other way.

Thank you.

(personal note, Left hand trigger block safety is now out of my right hand use Glock, as well as the 10mm round in my now empty chamber)

Last edited by ShallNotBeInfringed; 07-07-2013 at 22:44..
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Old 07-07-2013, 22:47   #50
misfit356tsw
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Originally Posted by ShallNotBeInfringed View Post
Not in older manuals, that I can see.

However, being presented with manufactures guidelines, I would be foolish to teach a gun class for CHP people, any other way.

Thank you.

(personal note, Left hand trigger block safety is now out of my right hand use Glock, as well as the 10mm round in my now empty chamber)
That is what was stated in my oldest manual that is Rev. 2/96. I have not looked in my newest manual.

Aside from that, Glock has to put that in their manual for legal reasons I am sure.

Have a great evening.

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Old 07-07-2013, 23:08   #51
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So whats the deal with the serpa?
I never had any problems with the USMC issued one and Beretta M9,
Or the Law Enforcement Duty model on my side right now with a Glock 31...

The safety bloc, I'm not a fan of, and never plan to buy.
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:11   #52
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In my experience, there are two schools of thought about Glock and other striker fired pistols that don't have a manual safety: The dominant position is that a manual safety isn't needed because training and experience will produce mental conditioning that prevents putting one's finger inside the guard until the target is acquired and the decision has been made to shoot. The much less popular opinion is that NDs can happen despite training and experience, particularly during administrative handling, so a manual safety device reduces the risk of NDs.

This debate comes down to what the gun owner is personally comfortable with, and I can't argue against that. After all, we are each personally responsible and accountable for our behavior with firearms. My misgivings arise with new shooters, first-time Glock owners and others who carry striker-fired pistols in C1 without the necessary training and experience.

With respect to what or how an instructor approaches training with a Glock, my view is that inexperienced shooters should be advised to use a NY trigger, a safety device or carry unchambered until competence is achieved. My layman's perspective will be viewed as too conservative or overreaching by many, but safety should be the instructor's first priority, in my opinion.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 07-08-2013 at 09:18..
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:55   #53
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There's not one. Some folks expect them to prevent the gun from firing if they pull the trigger.
Quote:
Originally Posted by p99guy View Post
So whats the deal with the serpa?
I never had any problems with the USMC issued one and Beretta M9,
Or the Law Enforcement Duty model on my side right now with a Glock 31...

The safety bloc, I'm not a fan of, and never plan to buy.
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:37   #54
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First of all, if I decided to take a course and you told me I had to use one of these, Id tell you to go pound sand. Its ridiculous. If you need a trigger block, you have no business having a glock. Get something with multiple external safeties. KEEP YOUR DARN FINGER OUT OF THE TRIGGER,
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Old 07-08-2013, 12:42   #55
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My G19 manual, REV.03/10, contains the following:

"The higher level of preparedness required of law enforcement and military personnel may override the following safety instructions. To provide safety while operating at a higher level of preparedness, proper initial combat oriented training and a reasonable amount of periodic training, which stresses safe tactical procedures, is recommended." [page 1]

"FAILURE TO ADHERE TO SAFETY INFORMATION AND SAFETY INSTRUCTIONS IN THIS MANUAL COULD RESULT IN PROPERTY DAMAGE, PERSONAL INJURY OR DEATH." [page 1]

"GLOCK PISTOLS HAVE SEVERAL INTERNAL DESIGN FEATURES AND MECHANICAL SAFETIES [only] TO PREVENT DISCHARGE SHOULD THE PISTOL BE DROPPED OR RECEIVE A SEVERE BLOW TO THE MUZZLE FRONT, OR BACK OF THE PISTOL.

THEREFORE, EXTRA CARE AND STRICT ADHERENCE TO THE SAFETY INSTRUCTIONS AND OTHER INSTRUCTIONS CONTAINED IN THIS MANUAL BY THE GUN USER IS MANDATORY FOR MINIMIZING THE RISK OF ACCIDENTS." [page 3]

"CAUTION: DO NOT CARRY THE PISTOL IN THE READY TO FIRE CONDITION. THIS IS NOT THE RECOMMENDED SAFE-CARRYING METHOD FOR CIVILIAN USE." [page 15]

The typical response to these printed safety instructions is that they are dictated by legal considerations more than operator safety concerns. While this may be true, I wonder if a firearm instructor can/should ignore such warnings when students do not have the level of training and experience needed to operate a Glock pistol safely. Is there legal risk involved? Is there a question as to the ethical requirement to fully disclose Glock's safety instructions to inexperienced students? I don't know, I'm just asking. This fits into the discussion about trigger blocks, the NY trigger and other manual safety devices which might be appropriate for classroom discussion.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 07-08-2013 at 13:59..
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:47   #56
S. Kelly
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Trigger-block safety (bad idea-your finger spends way too much time around the trigger when you don't need it to-that in itself is way unsafe) inside a Serpa Holster? Sounds like a bad idea to me, inserting a chamber loaded gun into a holster with something stuck in the trigger guard.

If you feel you need this much safety, carry chamber empty. You're using 2 hands, but at least it's a gross motor movement using an overhand method to load, versus a fine motor movement to pop out the block in the trigger guard-keep it simple. It's probably way safer than popping out the trigger block with your off-hand finger. In a crisis situation, your world truly turns to s%^t.

I think in your quest to be extremely safe, you have overthough the solution. Try chamber loaded in a Safariland ALS 6738. Grab the handgun grip, use your thumb to disengage the holster lock and draw.

Definately, don't try to help new students with your safety methods. Leave it to them to come up with their own safety plan.
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Old 07-09-2013, 13:42   #57
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The idea of using a left handed trigger block safety for right handed shooters is an intriguing one from an officer safety standpoint. Should an officer lose his handgun to a bad guy it would certainly buy the officer some time to sort things out.
That would backfire...most sinister people are left-handed.
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Old 07-09-2013, 14:20   #58
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Mas Ayoob has stated that a manual safety, like the Cominolli, on a Glock might confuse a bad guy who has grabbed someone's SD gun. Anyone who knows Glocks like most bad guys do certainly wouldn't expect a safety, so it might work. That period of confusion might provide time to get away or defend in some way.
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Old 07-09-2013, 14:59   #59
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Originally Posted by glockman99 View Post
Putting your trigger finger inside the trigger-guard when not totally ready to shoot, even if it is to pop out a piece of plastic, isn't a good idea, IMO.
This. How many ADs have occured when trying to "unsafe" the gun. I'm sorry but this is a bad idea IMO. I've seen ADs happen as soon as the safety was taken off.
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Old 07-09-2013, 15:17   #60
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This. How many ADs have occured when trying to "unsafe" the gun. I'm sorry but this is a bad idea IMO. I've seen ADs happen as soon as the safety was taken off.
I don't disagree with what you're saying, but what is it about the act of flicking off a manual safety that contributes to NDs? Anyone who carries a 1911, millions of 'em, "unsafe" their gun routinely without incident. Thanks.
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