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Old 07-01-2013, 17:04   #1
Silas.soule
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James Madison and Nixon

"War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the denomination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds are added to those of subduing the forces of the people. . . No nation could reserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.

Those truths are well established. They are read in every page which records the progression from a less arbitrary to a more arbitrary government, or the transition from a popular government to an aristocracy or monarchy"

hmm, they say Richard Nixon was furious that Congress enacted the War Powers Act. Seems Madison planned for Congress to keep the Executive in check, and that what Congress did in the 1970's was what Madison ("Father of The Constitution") would have wanted.

hmmmm
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Old 07-01-2013, 18:42   #2
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Besides Ron and Rand Paul, and a few Democrats, does anyone care, anymore, what James Madison wanted? Afterall, Madison wrote that Congress should not use taxpayer money to pay for Congressional chaplains. He wrote that there were plenty of churches in D.C. for reps to choose from, and that using taxes to appoint one right in the Capital building would lead to political favor for some denominations. Sho nuf, Pelosi and Boehner, both Catholic, appointed a Catholic priest, to replace the departing Catholic priest who was House chaplain. This gives the House of Representatives 11 + years of Catholic, taxpayer funded, chaplains. To the tune of $170,000 a year.

So blatantly do leaders do what the founders said not to.

Take the Second Amendment.

What the heck happened to this country?

I think its the Military Industrial Complex.
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Old 07-01-2013, 22:19   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silas.soule View Post
"War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the denomination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds are added to those of subduing the forces of the people. . . No nation could reserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.

Those truths are well established. They are read in every page which records the progression from a less arbitrary to a more arbitrary government, or the transition from a popular government to an aristocracy or monarchy"

hmm, they say Richard Nixon was furious that Congress enacted the War Powers Act. Seems Madison planned for Congress to keep the Executive in check, and that what Congress did in the 1970's was what Madison ("Father of The Constitution") would have wanted.

hmmmm
That is why war is the most important issue of all. By far. And the following describe why perpetual and never ending war on terror is the greatest con ever perpetrated by a government in the history of the world. If we ever want to slow the advancing trillion dollar monster, we have to understand why this war is being perpetrated, and resist it any way we can.

from the link in my sig-

In war, State power is pushed to its ultimate, and, under the slogans of "defense" and "emergency," it can impose a tyranny upon the public such as might be openly resisted in time of peace. War thus provides many benefits to a State, and indeed every modern war has brought to the warring peoples a permanent legacy of increased State burdens upon society.

War, moreover, provides to a State tempting opportunities for conquest of land areas over which it may exercise its monopoly of force. Randolph Bourne was certainly correct when he wrote that "war is the health of the State," but to any particular State a war may spell either health or grave injury.[35]

We may test the hypothesis that the State is largely interested in protecting itself rather than its subjects by asking: which category of crimes does the State pursue and punish most intensely?those against private citizens or those against itself?

The gravest crimes in the State's lexicon are almost invariably not invasions of private person or property, but dangers to its own contentment, for example, treason, desertion of a soldier to the enemy, failure to register for the draft, subversion and subversive conspiracy, assassination of rulers and such economic crimes against the State as counterfeiting its money or evasion of its income tax.

Or compare the degree of zeal devoted to pursuing the man who assaults a policeman, with the attention that the State pays to the assault of an ordinary citizen. Yet, curiously, the State's openly assigned priority to its own defense against the public strikes few people as inconsistent with its presumed raison d'etre. (defending the people)

-Or from War is the Health of the State

War is the health of the State. It automatically sets in motion throughout society those irresistible forces for uniformity, for passionate cooperation with the Government in coercing into obedience the minority groups and individuals which lack the larger herd sense. The machinery of government sets and enforces the drastic penalties; the minorities are either intimidated into silence, or brought slowly around by a subtle process of persuasion which may seem to them really to be converting them.

Of course, the ideal of perfect loyalty, perfect uniformity is never really attained. The classes upon whom the amateur work of coercion falls are unwearied in their zeal, but often their agitation instead of converting, merely serves to stiffen their resistance. Minorities are rendered sullen, and some intellectual opinion bitter and satirical.

But in general, the nation in wartime attains a uniformity of feeling, a hierarchy of values culminating at the undisputed apex of the State ideal, which could not possibly be produced through any other agency than war. Loyalty - or mystic devotion to the State - becomes the major imagined human value. Other values, such as artistic creation, knowledge, reason, beauty, the enhancement of life, are instantly and almost unanimously sacrificed, and the significant classes who have constituted themselves the amateur agents of the State are engaged not only in sacrificing these values for themselves but in coercing all other persons into sacrificing them.

....On our entrance into the war, there were many persons who predicted exactly this derangement of values, who feared lest democracy suffer more at home from an America at war than could be gained for democracy abroad. That fear has been amply justified. (haha, boy if he only knew how bad it would get- this was written in 1914)

.....Thus arises conflict within the State. War becomes almost a sport between the hunters and the hunted. The pursuit of enemies within outweighs in psychic attractiveness the assault on the enemy without. The whole terrific force of the State is brought to bear against the heretics. The nation boils with a slow insistent fever. A white terrorism is carried on by the Government against pacifists, socialists, enemy aliens, and a milder unofficial persecution against all persons or movements that can be imagined as connected with the enemy

.....All of which goes to show that the State represents all the autocratic, arbitrary, coercive, belligerent forces within a social group, it is a sort of complexus of everything most distasteful to the modern free creative spirit, the feeling for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. War is the health of the State. Only when the State is at war does the modern society function with that unity of sentiment, simple uncritical patriotic devotion, cooperation of services, which have always been the ideal of the State lover.

.....It cannot be said that the object of emotion is the same, because the flag is the symbol of the nation, so that in reverencing the American flag we are reverencing the nation. For the flag is not a symbol of the country as a cultural group, following certain ideals of life, but solely a symbol of the political State, inseparable from its prestige and expansion.

The flag is most intimately connected with military achievement, military memory. It represents the country not in its intensive life, but in its far-flung challenge to the world. The flag is primarily the banner of war; it is allied with patriotic anthem and holiday. It recalls old martial memories. A nation's patriotic history is solely the history of its wars, that is, of the State in its health and glorious functioning. So in responding to the appeal of the flag, we are responding to the appeal of the State, to the symbol of the herd organized as an offensive and defensive body, conscious of its prowess and its mystical herd strength.

....Once the State has begun to function, and a large class finds its interest and its expression of power in maintaining the State, this ruling class may compel obedience from any uninterested minority. The State thus becomes an instrument by which the power of the whole herd is wielded for the benefit of a class. The rulers soon learn to capitalize the reverence which the State produces in the majority, and turn it into a general resistance toward a lessening of their privileges. The sanctity of the State becomes identified with the sanctity of the ruling class, and the latter are permitted to remain in power under the impression that in obeying and serving them, we are obeying and serving society, the nation, the great collectivity of all of us. . . .

https://www.google.com/search?q=war+...hrome&ie=UTF-8
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Last edited by Stubudd; 07-01-2013 at 22:38..
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:42   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silas.soule View Post
... does anyone care, anymore, what James Madison wanted? .
No.





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Old 07-02-2013, 05:07   #5
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peacenik
hippy
flower child
gaycommieathiestlibertinepotsmoking...

Why do you hate America?

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Old 07-02-2013, 15:19   #6
Silas.soule
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Good points, Stubudd.

Ever hear it said that societies reserve their harshest punishments not for murderers and rapists, but for heretics?
Think of the tortures of The Inquisition, Stalin's purges, etc.
While the real criminals had it better.

You wrote:

"We may test the hypothesis that the State is largely interested in protecting itself rather than its subjects by asking: which category of crimes does the State pursue and punish most intensely?those against private citizens or those against itself? "

Look at our border with Mexico. Cartel members grow marijuana in OUR national forests. People come and go. People = cheap labor. Do our politicians make controlling entry and exit into OUR country a priority? We know they don't. Their buddies are business leaders, and that is the reason why.

I've heard it said that the current proposal to increase the number of border agents by thousands is a scam. All that really needs to be done is make it impossible for anyone to gain employment without proof of citizenship. THAT would inconvenience business.

Many companies will make money by selling drones and wall building materials to the government. They wouldn't make a buck if Congress insured illegals were unemployable.

So, you're correct. Uncle Sam in selecting which laws to enforce, and the selection process reflects who is paying for political advertizing and dinner with lobbyists.

Last edited by Silas.soule; 07-02-2013 at 15:54..
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Old 07-02-2013, 15:20   #7
Silas.soule
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hogfish View Post
peacenik
hippy
flower child
gaycommieathiestlibertinepotsmoking...

Why do you hate America?

Is that an attempt at humor or ad hominum debate?

You racist, sexist, bigoted homophobe!

Last edited by Silas.soule; 07-02-2013 at 15:56..
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Old 07-02-2013, 15:25   #8
Silas.soule
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Ronald Reagan: got elected by talking tough / then he ran up deficits by means of military spending

Bush The Lesser: same / ran up deficits on war spending

Next time a Republican tells you he is a fiscal conservative, are you going to believe him?

Dick Cheney disliked limits on the Executive's ability to wage war. His old company, Halliburton, made BILLIONS on the Iraq war. No one ever discovered a weapon of mass destruction, either.

Dwight Eisenhower, the Republican, President, General, told us this would happen.

Last edited by Silas.soule; 07-02-2013 at 15:33..
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Old 07-02-2013, 16:54   #9
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Is that an attempt at humor or ad hominum debate?

You racist, sexist, bigoted homophobe!
I thought it was a 'successful' attempt at humor, and I don't know what ad hominem is (though I see the professional debaters on here use the term a lot).
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Old 07-03-2013, 15:44   #10
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I thought it was a 'successful' attempt at humor, and I don't know what ad hominem is (though I see the professional debaters on here use the term a lot).
ad hominum is when a person avoids addressing the issue and related facts, and instead attacks their opponent's character.

But, I figured you were just trying to be funny, in this case.

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Old 07-03-2013, 15:49   #11
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In fairness to Catholicism

Yup, for over a decade the House of Representatives has had one Catholic priest or another serving as chaplain. I do know, however, that Protestants hogged the position for decades before the present time. In fact, when James Madison wrote that this was a misuse of taxpayer money, he mentioned that Catholics might be kept from the position, in a discriminatory fashion.

Just think: the biggest collection of amoral folks there might be anywhere, with a chaplain trying to talk morality to them.

Spend my taxes elsewhere, please!
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Old 07-03-2013, 16:10   #12
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Next time a Republican tells you he is a fiscal conservative, are you going to believe him?
.
Yes, they will
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Old 07-03-2013, 17:14   #13
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ad hominum is when a person avoids addressing the issue and related facts, and instead attacks their opponent's character.

But, I figured you were just trying to be funny, in this case.
I still think it was funny.
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Old 07-04-2013, 06:32   #14
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It really should be a big deal to go to war. It should be something Congress decides to do, and has to answer for, by declaring war.

There is no bigger sacrifice you can ask of someone than their life, or their son or daughter's life. Part of that pact, is that you don't do it willy nilly, without clear national goals, that everyone supports.

We don't do that, anymore.
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Old 07-06-2013, 18:28   #15
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Has the War Powers Act, passed to rein in Nixon, ever been used against a Democrat president...or even another Republican president?
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Old 07-06-2013, 22:25   #16
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I read an article during the Libya situation where congress was not pimp slapping Obama for failing to comply with the WPA. The author made the case that Congress essentially gave up their mandate to declare war by passing the WPA. Presidents have been relying on authorizations for use of force instead of declarations of war. The author was saying that both congress and the president were living up to their constitutional obligations by doing what they have done.
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Old 07-07-2013, 06:08   #17
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All the problems you described can be laid at the feet of one group - the voters. We have abdicated our duty as informed citizens and the political class has done what is does and taken advantage of that abdication. Sadly, it is safe to say that the majority of voters today do not read (in many cases have never read a book), and are woefully inadequate to the task of critically evaluating the entertainment/propaganda organs they look to for information.

I do not see much hope to turn this situation around.
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Old 07-07-2013, 06:58   #18
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Maybe a pre-vote quiz on the issues which must be passed to obtain a ballot. Nah, never happen. Elections no longer deal with issues - just sound bites.
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