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Old 06-29-2013, 06:05   #1
CDW4ME
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357 Sig and 10mm = best compromise of KE, capacity, control

Ignore this thread.

I have re-tested and posted new data

Here:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...9#post20420559



I've been very "big bullet" oriented, content to carry a 45 either 6 + 1 or
7 + 1 (Glock 36 or 1911).

However, I can envision the possibility of more ammo capacity being beneficial.

The potential of making quick accurate follow up shots must also be taken into consideration.

I've decided that a "compromise" may be best, a compromise between capacity and caliber, but not KE or control.

How can I have the most KE and capacity with the least recoil?

10mm and 357 SIG.

Examples:
There is only 1 round of capacity difference in these pistols:
Glock 26 Ranger T 127 gr. +P+ @ 1,182 fps / 394# KE / PF 150
Glock 27 Ranger T 165 gr. @ 1,071 fps / 420# KE / PF 177
Glock 33 Ranger T 125 gr. @ 1,280 fps / 454# KE / PF 160

There is 3 rounds (I can't cram the last round into the 10mm magazine) capacity difference in these pistols:
Glock 36 Ranger T 230 gr. @ 874 fps / 390# KE / PF 201
Glock 29SF Hornady 155 gr. @ 1,278 fps / 562# KE / PF 198

There is 6 rounds capacity difference in these pistols (7 round Tripp mag in the Valor):
Dan Wesson Valor 230 gr. Ranger T @ 928 fps / 440# KE / PF 213
Glock 32 Ranger T 125 gr. @ 1,340 fps / 499# KE / PF 168
These two pistols are different so the PF calculation is not as direct; however, subjectively the 32 doesn't produce any more felt recoil than the 1911 (blast is a different issue).

PF = power factor and the calculation can be used to compare recoil out of similar pistols.

The niche calibers 357 Sig and 10mm offer the greatest power with good capacity and comparatively moderate recoil, at the expense of greatest capacity or diameter.




Preemptive dismissal before any replies about ammo cost, this is about performance.
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Last edited by CDW4ME; 07-01-2013 at 11:45.. Reason: The data in this thread is old
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Old 06-29-2013, 06:31   #2
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In for more popcorn.
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Old 06-29-2013, 11:37   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
I've been very "big bullet" oriented, content to carry a 45 either 6 + 1 or
7 + 1 (Glock 36 or 1911).
I felt that way as a young man.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
However, I can envision the possibility of more ammo capacity being beneficial.
Hard to disagree, in abstract, but situational context makes it less easy to quantify & define.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
The potential of making quick accurate follow up shots must also be taken into consideration.
Yep, but this is going to vary quite a bit among a lot of folks, and don't discount that it can even vary according to the same shooter on different days.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
The niche calibers 357 Sig and 10mm offer the greatest power with good capacity and comparatively moderate recoil, at the expense of greatest capacity or diameter.
Well, while the .357SIG hasn't gained anywhere near the service use as was probably hoped for when they came up with the cartridge, and the marketing folks chose the name, it probably ought not to be relegated to the "niche" category in the manner of the 10mm.

I sometimes wonder if the marketing folks sometimes wish they'd taken a risk and named it the .357SIG Magnum. After all, what's in a name? Buyers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
Preemptive dismissal before any replies about ammo cost, this is about performance.
Okay, but then you're going to have to come up with a way to provide a universally agreed upon definition of "performance".

KE is just ... well, KE.

And we're still just talking about handguns.

If the 10mm had turned out to be the right balance of everything felt needed for a duty/service handgun ... including practical "power" & controllability ... it would have acquired and retained a good percentage of the LE/Gov market. It didn't, though, and nothing's changed that would appear to make that result likely to change any time in the future.

It has, however, been a popular hunter & hand-loader cartridge, and some of the smallest ammo companies have apparently found a nice niche in catering to the KE/muzzle velocity & muzzle blast enthusiasts.

The .357SIG remains a viable service caliber, but again, not to the extent that lots of guns are being pumped out of the various production lines.

Hey, I always thought the 10mm never really received the attention it deserved for developing it into a medium-bore service pistol. Not the hot-rodded stuff so popular among aficionados, but using a TMCFMJ & a hollowpoint loading made close to the original loadings. (Then again, I was always somewhat disappointed that the .41 Magnum never really achieved widespread acceptance with both Magnum & Police loadings, either. )

Whatever "answers" you determine are right are probably right for you. The overall market response ... not withstanding a core of ardent enthusiasts, of course ... will set the tone and the future of both cartridges.

Why not really beat that underdog drum and add the .45GAP to your parade?

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Old 06-29-2013, 12:35   #4
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CDW4ME,
I too think the 10mm and 357SIG are the two best generally available autopistol cartridges for all but mouse and rat pistols. The 9x23 Winchester might be better than the 10mm for several purposes if only there was the choice of pistols and ammunition. It is a shame that Glock does not make pistols on the 10mm frame for the .38 Super and the 9x23 Winchester - it would be a very small investment on their part and South America alone would be a big market for the .38 Super, and I would like both via a barrel change.

English

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Old 06-29-2013, 12:35   #5
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I felt that way as a young man.

Yep, but this is going to vary quite a bit among a lot of folks, and don't discount that it can even vary according to the same shooter on different days.

Okay, but then you're going to have to come up with a way to provide a universally agreed upon definition of "performance".

KE is just ... well, KE.

And we're still just talking about handguns.


I'm 46, so whether I'm young is in the eye of the beholder.

Not being especially fast about anything I do, my 2nd shot times are not very impressive; however, I do likely have a more rigid criteria for what constitutes a good "qualifying" 2nd shot than some.

I put a 6'' circle on a larger target about 6 - 7 yards away.
Both 1st and 2nd shot must hit the 6'' circle to qualify, be included in the pairs that will be averaged; close to the 6'' does not count. I can pull the trigger faster, but keeping both shots on the 6'' circle becomes increasingly difficult.

I've obtained consistent averages on different days, so I'm confident that the averages are representative of my performance with different pistols, using the given ammo.

My subcompacts (26, 27 and 33) all have a Pearce +0 magazine base that provides a place for my pinky.

Using the 26 (9mm):
.28 sec average from 1st - 2nd shot with a standard pressure 115 gr. JHP
.31 sec average with Ranger T 124 gr. +P

Glock 27 (40 S&W)
.29 one day, .32 average on another, both times with relatively mild kicking Rem 180 JHP; the time would definitely increase with a hotter round like Ranger T 165.

Glock 33 (357 Sig)
.32 one day with a 147 gr. XTP, .31 average on another day with 125 gr. Gold Dot.

Notice that there is essentially no difference in my 1st - 2nd shot average time between the 9mm +P and the 357 Sig (maybe because I'm slow either way).

With the Glock 29 SF and Hornady 155 gr. XTP I averaged .34 sec (not bad considering the size of the pistol and the power produced).

The 1911 was good for a very respectable .23 sec average.
The Glock 32 in 357 Sig essentially a match at .25 average using Ranger T

KE is KE and it's a good way to compare power.
What is the primary difference in a 38 special 125 gr. +P and 357 Mag 125 gr. ammo?
Speed / KE / power.

There is no debate that the same 125 gr. bullet would be more effective against a human aggressor at magnum velocity rather than 38 special velocity, given equal shot placement.
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Old 06-29-2013, 12:39   #6
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My two favorite calibers. Hard on the wallet, though.
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Old 06-29-2013, 12:52   #7
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Quote:
How can I have the most KE and capacity with the least recoil?
9x23 winchester, well maybe not the least recoil
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Old 06-29-2013, 13:19   #8
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It's funny. I kind of thought I was alone in coming to the same conclusion.
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Old 06-29-2013, 13:40   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
I'm 46, so whether I'm young is in the eye of the beholder.
I considered young to mean when I was early 30's. Over time I've come to speculate that a lot of folks don't seem to become interesting for the purpose of discussions based upon experience until they're close to 50.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
KE is KE and it's a good way to compare power.
What is the primary difference in a 38 special 125 gr. +P and 357 Mag 125 gr. ammo?
Speed / KE / power.

There is no debate that the same 125 gr. bullet would be more effective against a human aggressor at magnum velocity rather than 38 special velocity, given equal shot placement.
Yes, no & maybe.

Pure KE calculations quantify the available energy to do work, not necessarily how effectively it may be used to perform that work.

Yes, I remember when that "hydrostatic shock" concept was being promoted.

I also remember when the 95gr JSP .357 Magnum load didn't become a mainstay in revolver service usage, despite its 2,000fps velocity.

Was it fragmentation of a couple of the revolver .357 bullets, with their generously exposed lead nose cavity mouths, that helped increase the wounding effect in the older Magnum rounds? I've heard that expressed back in the day when we were being told we ought to switch to the lighter 125gr Magnum loads.

I also remember a lot of satisfied users of 140-158gr Magnum loads, too.

Having long been a shooter of Magnum revolvers (and an avid handloader who really dog-eared the pages of the reloading manuals in the Ruger-Only sections), I always appreciated the potential for the increased energy of some handgun calibers to provide an edge in accomplishing some tasks. I carried a Ruger Redhawk or S&W .44 Magnum loaded with 180gr JHP's as a younger cop, and then eventually found the 210gr STHP's seemed to offer similar observed effect, but with less muzzle blast & wrist-stressing torque.

As far as the sheer power of the .357 Magnum?

Well, I've had the opportunity to listen to Ofc Lim (LAPD) speak about her incident, in detail, and take questions. She suffered a close range (3-5') .357 Magnum gunshot wound to her chest. She said it left a tennis-ball size wound in her back, and tore a small hole in part of her heart.

After she suffered that gunshot wound she fired several shots at her attacker, killing him with her 9mm.

She lost consciousness from blood loss a short time later, having walked part way up her driveway after confirming there were no more apparent threats.

I remember a shooting where an armed suspect involved in a shooting with a cop took 6 .41 Magnums in his upper torso, and was still trying to shoot at the cop (but with an empty gun).

How about that suspect reported many years ago who has his heart totally macerated by a 12 ga slug, and then ran about 3 blocks before succumbing to the effects of his fatal gunshot wound.

Trying to attribute "stopping power" to any of the common handgun defensive calibers is iffy, at best. They're handguns.

I remember when the Chevy Corvair was offered with a slightly more powerful engine ... but it was still a Corvair.

If I really thought my .357 Magnum & .44 Magnum revolvers offered me a substantial improvement in actual & practical defensive performance, I'd still be carrying them.

Suit yourself. We all do.
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Old 06-29-2013, 18:24   #10
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Originally Posted by MIKES LAW View Post
It's funny. I kind of thought I was alone in coming to the same conclusion.



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Old 06-29-2013, 18:39   #11
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45GAP or 10mm to take over the world.
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Old 06-29-2013, 20:23   #12
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OP, you could simply carry a gun in .45 acp that has more capacity than 6+1 or 7+1. They do exist. And this may come as a shocker, but they make 8-round 1911 magazines now.
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Old 06-29-2013, 20:40   #13
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The KE of the Hornady 10mm ammo is pretty tame compared to the original Norma or current versions loaded by Underwood or BB. Recoil would probably slow your shots a little too.
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Old 06-29-2013, 20:43   #14
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I like your two choices. The caliber alone does not make a lethal package. I can never separate the caliber from the pistol. It takes both of them to make a deal.

To make a deal with your two choices I'd like a s&w 1006 and a Sig 229 S. The Sig 229 Sports Sig .357 with compensator has the best follow up shot control of all my practical pistols. If you are going to have a top defensive round you should put a pistol around it to take full advantage of the caliber

sorry for the phone pictures. left my camera at work.

Caliber Corner
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Old 06-29-2013, 21:02   #15
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Sig 229 S has the plus 2 mags. might as well get it all
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Old 06-29-2013, 21:13   #16
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If you want to really capitalize on the 10mm, give Mr Wilson a call and have him fix you up with a 1911 10mm Hunter. you will have the best of the best.

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Old 06-30-2013, 06:59   #17
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OP, you could simply carry a gun in .45 acp that has more capacity than 6+1 or 7+1. They do exist. And this may come as a shocker, but they make 8-round 1911 magazines now.
I'm not sure what about my post would lead someone to the conclusion that I am nave about firearms.

It does bug me that despite the data I've included I could be perceived as a novice.

Maybe I need to utilize more sarcasm and less data.

They make a Glock 30 SF !!!!

Like the one I have that only holds 8 rounds in its 9 round flush fitting magazines?
I do not like the oversize base on the 10 round magazine whatsoever. At least it actually does hold 10 rounds, but I just can't tolerate the feel.
I've tried Pearce +0 baseplates on the 30SF but that did not help. The 29SF does have Pearce +0 baseplates and I like it perfectly, they do not leave a gap; the 30 SF with either base has a gap that annoys my pinky, so I use the flush fitting alleged 9 round.

Not having a place for my pinky negatively affects 2nd shot follow up time with a hard kicking round like Ranger T; I can get the 30SF 2nd shot time down to equal the 29SF (despite no place for pinky) but I have to use softer kicking Hornady 185 gr. not the 230 gr. ammo I prefer.
Another unmentioned aspect of this comparison is my current method of carry. During summer when dressed very casually I use a Smartcarry. The 36 is quickest to draw out of the Smartcarry followed by the 29SF; either allows me to get my whole hand on the grip. The 30SF and flush fitting alleged 9 round magazine is harder / slower to draw from the Smartcarry, so I used the 36 as a basis for this comparison. If I am carrying appendix IWB then the 30SF becomes a viable option.
The subcompact Glocks (including 36, 29SF, and 30SF) are either Smartcarry or appendix IWB. The 1911 or Glock 32 are strongside IWB, that's why I put them together in my original post.

All of this trivia about how I carry the pistols or magazine bases is really not directly related to the overall topic of KE, capacity, and caliber so I did not include what I considered to be unrelated details.

Have you noticed how the Tripp 8 round magazines for 1911 are not flush fitting?
I will not buy or use a 1911 magazine that isn't flush fitting and I think Tripp magazines are the best 1911 magazine, so the 7 round flush fitting Tripp magazine is it for me.
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Old 06-30-2013, 08:26   #18
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There is no problem switching from .45 ACP to .357 Sig or 10mm Auto. I like a .45, but my favorite cartridge is the 10mm and I recently tried to get the LE agency I work for to switch to .357 Sig.

I saw the Hornady 155 grain XTP in 10mm mentioned above. Though not full power 10mm, it throws a 155 grain bullet at 1270 to 1280 fps. No slouch and it is easy to control in a 10mm sized platform. It's kind of like having the best of both worlds.

Shoot what like best, train to proficiency, and enjoy!
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Old 06-30-2013, 12:39   #19
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Originally Posted by 4949shooter View Post
I saw the Hornady 155 grain XTP in 10mm mentioned above. Though not full power 10mm, it throws a 155 grain bullet at 1270 to 1280 fps. No slouch and it is easy to control in a 10mm sized platform. It's kind of like having the best of both worlds.
Although the Hornady 155 gr. I tested and carry is not the hottest, I believe it is full power.
I got 1,278 fps average out of my 29SF which is a little faster than advertised.
I wouldn't want any more recoil than the Hornady load and I think the 155 gr. is a good choice for SD.

I have the Jan. 2013 issue of Gun Tests magazine, they tested alternate 1911 cartridges.
Out of a 5'' barrel:
Hornady 155 gr. @ 1,360 fps / 636# KE
Cor-Bon 165 gr. @ 1,290 fps / 609# KE
Winchester Silvertip 175 @ 1,175 fps / 536# KE

As you can see, the Hornady 155 gr. compared favorably with other "full power" loads.
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Old 06-30-2013, 12:58   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
Although the Hornady 155 gr. I tested and carry is not the hottest, I believe it is full power.
I got 1,278 fps average out of my 29SF which is a little faster than advertised.
I wouldn't want any more recoil than the Hornady load and I think the 155 gr. is a good choice for SD.

I have the Jan. 2013 issue of Gun Tests magazine, they tested alternate 1911 cartridges.
Out of a 5'' barrel:
Hornady 155 gr. @ 1,360 fps / 636# KE
Cor-Bon 165 gr. @ 1,290 fps / 609# KE
Winchester Silvertip 175 @ 1,175 fps / 536# KE

As you can see, the Hornady 155 gr. compared favorably with other "full power" loads.
Yes, the Hornady 155 XTP did better than I thought. I really like that load.
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Old 07-01-2013, 06:39   #21
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Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
Have you noticed how the Tripp 8 round magazines for 1911 are not flush fitting?
I will not buy or use a 1911 magazine that isn't flush fitting and I think Tripp magazines are the best 1911 magazine, so the 7 round flush fitting Tripp magazine is it for me.
They make flush-fit 8-rounders. Kimber Kim-Pro Tac-Mag. Simply don't screw in any of the base plates and it's flush-fitting. Worked well for me, no problems. Can't vouch for anyone else's gun, though. Not all 1911s are created equal.

My response was sarcastic, by the way. I was sure you already were aware of such radical improvements in .45 acp pistols.

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