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Old 06-29-2013, 16:51   #26
PhotoFeller
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You are very lucky to be able to make a blanket statement like that considering most of us have found large variations in reliability between different brands of eight-rounders.

I tried a few some worked, some didn't.

I'd buy lottery tickets if I were you.
There must be a reasonably simple explanation for variability in reliability in 8 round mags when it's not a problem in 7 rounders.

Of all the parts and pieces that make a 1911 run, the magazine seems the simplest, by far.

What makes the design and manufacture of an 8-round box with a spring and follower so difficult to perfect? What is it that adding one more round of capacity screws up? I would think a couple of Purdue seniors could come up with a reliable design in about as much time as it would take to throw down a pizza and 6 beers.

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Old 06-29-2013, 17:00   #27
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There must be a reasonably simple explanation for variability in reliability in 8 round mags when it's not a problem in 7 rounders.

Of all the parts and pieces that make a 1911 run, the magazine seems the simplest, by far.

What makes the design and manufacture of an 8-round box with a spring and follower so difficult to perfect? What is it that adding one more round of capacity screws up? I would think a couple of Purdue seniors could come up with a reliable design in about as much time as it would take to throw down a pizza and 6 beers.
Out of curiosity, did you read post #5 by fastbolt and get a perspective from actual experience when you came up with your theory about who should design 8 rd 1911 mags ?
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Old 06-29-2013, 17:49   #28
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Is there a real or perceived reliability issue with using 8 round mags in an 1911?
There has been problems with 8 round springs in a variety of magazines for more than a decade.
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Old 06-29-2013, 18:05   #29
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During the daylight savings time part of the year I shoot a NMC hard ball match every Monday night. The 4" Kimber is not a NMC hardball gun but I have been using it. I wanted to see how the alloy frame wo9uld hold up. I have been keeping track of the 230 gr hardball UMC that has gone thru it. Monday nightI open the fourth box of 1K 230 gr UMC. NMC matches you just load 5 rounds so no problems.

if I load 8 rounds it is hard to seat the mags. I have trouble on load and make ready, I have to check the slide to make sure it went locked up. the slide may not pick up the #7. Both Kimbers have gone thru the Custom Shop.

The 4" is a good shooting smooth running 1911 with 7 round mags. I had Kimber set te sights for a POA at 50 yds. With the 230 gr UMC if get a 6 o'clock hold at 25 yds. I am still running the stock Kimber recoil spring and will till for a while more.

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Old 06-29-2013, 18:36   #30
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All joke aside, THE solution for bad 8 rd. mags is the Tripp conversion. Unbelievable how smooth these make a mag work:


http://www.trippresearch.com/store/store_1911.html
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Old 06-29-2013, 19:58   #31
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There must be a reasonably simple explanation for variability in reliability in 8 round mags when it's not a problem in 7 rounders.

Of all the parts and pieces that make a 1911 run, the magazine seems the simplest, by far.

What makes the design and manufacture of an 8-round box with a spring and follower so difficult to perfect? What is it that adding one more round of capacity screws up? I would think a couple of Purdue seniors could come up with a reliable design in about as much time as it would take to throw down a pizza and 6 beers.
Trying to stuff 8 rounds into a box magazine designed to hold 7 rounds, AND fit flush in a Colt Gov Model, means you've got to compromise somewhere. It's often the spring, and/or the follower. Don't you think JMB would've stuffed more rounds in his mag if he thought he could do so and make it run as reliably as desired?

Now, personally, I'd like to see someone design an 8-rd 1911 mag that would run as well as the 8-rd 4506/66 mags that S&W presently uses ... but they worked at it for some years before they got it as close to perfect as we can probably expect. (While it's really more of a gimmick, it's sometimes funny to see the expression on a 1911 owner's face when you load a 4566 mag with empty cases, and then run the slide by hand, flawlessly feeding all of them. ... followed by

Of course, the feed angle/departure in the S&W mag is different than that of the 1911 (or else S&W wouldn't have to be using commercial 1911 mags in the SW1911's ), and the 4506/66 8-rd mag was designed with a mag box long enough to contain 8 rounds with a suitably strong spring.

I really wish S&W engineers would try their hand at designing an 8-rd 1911 mag. Why not? Just about everyone else has tried, right?

I remember having a discussion with the good folks at Tripp Research a few years ago. I was ordering some mags for T&E at the time. The gentleman asked me which 1911 I was going to be using them in, which naturally made me ask why he'd ask.

He said the metal support in the mag catch area of their followers could vary, if necessary, and they did that so they could get their mags to run in the assorted production 1911's everybody was making. He explained that not everyone may be putting the mag catch cut at the same exact spot, as there wasn't a "standard" set of blueprints being used. No kidding, huh?

So, if I any problems I thought might be related to the seating & lock up of the mag, I could call and they'd send me a follower with a different spec metal insert.

He also told me they were just getting ready to change vendors for their mag bodies, and the new ones would have what they felt were even better tolerances.

Well, the mags ran just fine, and I gave one of them away to guy who couldn't get a couple of other make/model mags to feed JHP's in his "project Commander". The Tripp mag solved his feeding problem.
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Old 06-29-2013, 20:15   #32
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the best mags I have shot were from Clark Customs. Of course they were running in Clark Hardballer and Longslide Match. The Match magizines shoot a 200 gr LSC at 850fps better than any magazines I have shot. I kinda suspected that the mirror polished barrel ramp had something to do with it.
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Old 06-29-2013, 20:33   #33
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This thread fails to take into account what most 1911 threads also fail to take into account: that all 1911s aren't created equal. Lumping all 1911s into one group is simply stupid. Let's let 50 companies make their version of a Glock and a different 50 companies make their version of a Glock magazine and then see how well the different combinations function together. It would probably cause the same problems.
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Old 06-29-2013, 21:43   #34
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You are very lucky to be able to make a blanket statement like that considering most of us have found large variations in reliability between different brands of eight-rounders.

I tried a few some worked, some didn't.

I'd buy lottery tickets if I were you.
So why wouldn't you blame it on the mags that don't work instead of blaming it on the fact that it holds 8 rounds?

And WinterWizard makes a great point. I'm seeing a lot of Kimber in this thread. I couldn't make mine run with 7 round, 8 round, factory, handloads... anything.


ETA: If you want to shoot 8-rounders, get Chip McCormick (or Wilson) and don't look back.

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Old 06-29-2013, 21:53   #35
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This thread fails to take into account what most 1911 threads also fail to take into account: that all 1911s aren't created equal. Lumping all 1911s into one group is simply stupid. Let's let 50 companies make their version of a Glock and a different 50 companies make their version of a Glock magazine and then see how well the different combinations function together. It would probably cause the same problems.
Your point makes some sense but if you buy after market piston for your Chevy small block do you expect them to fit?


They drop right in. We just have expectations. Now if you buy a Kimber 8 round magazine for a Kimber 8 round pistol you expect it to work like your life depends on it. I would personally not assume that....but I think I should be able to
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Old 06-29-2013, 22:00   #36
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So why wouldn't you blame it on the mags that don't work instead of blaming it on the fact that it holds 8 rounds?

.
The fact that the same company's 7 rounders worked fine is what we call "A Clue".
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Old 06-30-2013, 00:46   #37
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Your point makes some sense but if you buy after market piston for your Chevy small block do you expect them to fit?


They drop right in. We just have expectations. Now if you buy a Kimber 8 round magazine for a Kimber 8 round pistol you expect it to work like your life depends on it. I would personally not assume that....but I think I should be able to
I don't assume or expect anything in this day and age. Sad times.
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Old 06-30-2013, 07:28   #38
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The fact that the same company's 7 rounders worked fine is what we call "A Clue".
"Doctor, it hurts when I use company X's 8-round mags."



"Then stop using company X's 8-round mags."

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Old 06-30-2013, 09:42   #39
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Out of curiosity, did you read post #5 by fastbolt and get a perspective from actual experience when you came up with your theory about who should design 8 rd 1911 mags ?
No, I missed it. My Purdue student theory was tongue in cheek to underscore my thought that mag design shouldn't be rocket-science difficult. Shows how little I know.

I'll read post #5.
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Old 06-30-2013, 10:11   #40
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Out of curiosity, did you read post #5 by fastbolt and get a perspective from actual experience when you came up with your theory about who should design 8 rd 1911 mags ?
Ok, I read #5. Its a good post, but it doesn't touch on my query about why adding 1 round of capacity makes a difference, in technical terms, in reliability. I was hoping for an explanation like: 'for 1911 pistols, the spring strength requirement for 7 rounds of .45acp is perfectly proportional to the standard magazine length x pi. Adding magazine length to accommodate an 8th round introduces a variable that makes spring strength difficult to compute for consistent feed reliability'.

Maybe the explanation is more magic than science.
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Old 06-30-2013, 10:35   #41
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Trying to stuff 8 rounds into a box magazine designed to hold 7 rounds, AND fit flush in a Colt Gov Model, means you've got to compromise somewhere. It's often the spring, and/or the follower. Don't you think JMB would've stuffed more rounds in his mag if he thought he could do so and make it run as reliably as desired?

Now, personally, I'd like to see someone design an 8-rd 1911 mag that would run as well as the 8-rd 4506/66 mags that S&W presently uses ... but they worked at it for some years before they got it as close to perfect as we can probably expect. (While it's really more of a gimmick, it's sometimes funny to see the expression on a 1911 owner's face when you load a 4566 mag with empty cases, and then run the slide by hand, flawlessly feeding all of them. ... followed by

Of course, the feed angle/departure in the S&W mag is different than that of the 1911 (or else S&W wouldn't have to be using commercial 1911 mags in the SW1911's ), and the 4506/66 8-rd mag was designed with a mag box long enough to contain 8 rounds with a suitably strong spring.

I really wish S&W engineers would try their hand at designing an 8-rd 1911 mag. Why not? Just about everyone else has tried, right?

I remember having a discussion with the good folks at Tripp Research a few years ago. I was ordering some mags for T&E at the time. The gentleman asked me which 1911 I was going to be using them in, which naturally made me ask why he'd ask.

He said the metal support in the mag catch area of their followers could vary, if necessary, and they did that so they could get their mags to run in the assorted production 1911's everybody was making. He explained that not everyone may be putting the mag catch cut at the same exact spot, as there wasn't a "standard" set of blueprints being used. No kidding, huh?

So, if I any problems I thought might be related to the seating & lock up of the mag, I could call and they'd send me a follower with a different spec metal insert.

He also told me they were just getting ready to change vendors for their mag bodies, and the new ones would have what they felt were even better tolerances.

Well, the mags ran just fine, and I gave one of them away to guy who couldn't get a couple of other make/model mags to feed JHP's in his "project Commander". The Tripp mag solved his feeding problem.
Good post. Thanks. It sounds like the variability is as much (or more) in the pistols as the mags.
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Old 06-30-2013, 11:16   #42
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I don't assume or expect anything in this day and age. Sad times.


I do: I assume and expect that there will be approx. 20 or so threads here in the next month repeating the same BS, e.g., "what's good for killin' Griz?", "what's the best manstopper?", or another of the never ending "10mm vs. .357 SIG" threads.

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Old 06-30-2013, 11:36   #43
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Ok, I read #5. Its a good post, but it doesn't touch on my query about why adding 1 round of capacity makes a difference, in technical terms, in reliability. I was hoping for an explanation like: 'for 1911 pistols, the spring strength requirement for 7 rounds of .45acp is perfectly proportional to the standard magazine length x pi. Adding magazine length to accommodate an 8th round introduces a variable that makes spring strength difficult to compute for consistent feed reliability'.

Maybe the explanation is more magic than science.
I have been very lucky shooting NMC with some guys that really know their 1911 and how to drive them. the answer was never magic even though finding the answer sometime takes a magician
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Old 06-30-2013, 12:11   #44
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Ok, I read #5. Its a good post, but it doesn't touch on my query about why adding 1 round of capacity makes a difference, in technical terms, in reliability. I was hoping for an explanation like: 'for 1911 pistols, the spring strength requirement for 7 rounds of .45acp is perfectly proportional to the standard magazine length x pi. Adding magazine length to accommodate an 8th round introduces a variable that makes spring strength difficult to compute for consistent feed reliability'.

Maybe the explanation is more magic than science.
Hmm, it seems as though you already had a good explanation worked out. If you knew this already what was your point?
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Old 06-30-2013, 12:50   #45
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I wonder if Cuomo knew 8 rounders jam, so really he was just trying to help us out with the 7 round law.

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Old 06-30-2013, 13:36   #46
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Ok, I read #5. Its a good post, but it doesn't touch on my query about why adding 1 round of capacity makes a difference, in technical terms, in reliability. I was hoping for an explanation like: 'for 1911 pistols, the spring strength requirement for 7 rounds of .45acp is perfectly proportional to the standard magazine length x pi. Adding magazine length to accommodate an 8th round introduces a variable that makes spring strength difficult to compute for consistent feed reliability'.

Maybe the explanation is more magic than science.



Amigo, it is like i said in one my post on here some where above... Quite simply, most 8rd mags just do not have the relibale spring strength for me to trust my life to. I have a Sig P220, that happens to have "very stout springs", and a good follower and feed lips," and I have shot and shot and shot this gun, with NO failures of any kind, SO when I do carry it, I am confident.

BUT....My long time experience with M1911's has been to stick with the proven, tried and true, 7 rd mags for realiability sake 'for carry..'

Most 8 rd mags simply just do not have a good enough spring tension. Yes, there are a few who work. But I just can't, in the M1911, trust my life 'competely' to an 8 rd mag in a M1911 over a 7rd mag, that I just never have had issue with to be honest, except for spring change out time due to thousands of rds being fired.


That is really all I can add. Fastbolt said the same thing, perhaps in a different way, but said it well...




Good shooting.






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Old 06-30-2013, 14:02   #47
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For all you old boys who just "got to stuff more 45's in those mags," Here ya go ! HaHa..

Caliber Corner

Caliber Corner

Caliber Corner


And for you shot gunner's who need more than two !!!


Caliber Corner



Now, no more worries... haha.




Enjoy !






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Old 06-30-2013, 18:06   #48
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You are very lucky to be able to make a blanket statement like that considering most of us have found large variations in reliability between different brands of eight-rounders.

I tried a few some worked, some didn't.

I'd buy lottery tickets if I were you.
Not so lucky with the Lottery. Maybe it has to do with the brand I use. All, except for one, of my perfectly functioning 8 rounders are Chip McCormick Shooting Star mags. My other one is a Kimber and it has never let me down either.
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Old 07-01-2013, 07:50   #49
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Hmm, it seems as though you already had a good explanation worked out. If you knew this already what was your point?
If I had a good explanation worked out, even I missed it!

Here is my question expressed another way: Why do 8 round aftermarket magazines for 1911s vary in reliability? I'm referring to mags where the magazine length is extended to accommodate an extra round. I'm curious because it would seem to be pretty straightforward for a gun designer with mechanical engineering skills to compute spring strength, test the result with a model of some sort, then build the extended magazine. However, many shooters experience problems with Wilsons and other brands.

This query assumed a mag could be designed to work reliably in all 1911s. That may be a key, flawed assumption. Wilson mags might work great in some brands but not be reliable in others.

My experience is pretty limited, but I did have difficulty inserting Wilson mags into my Colt; they just didn't want to seat properly. Oldtimers on the 1911 forum told me to just use force to "ram it home", but I elected to stick to Colt magazines. The same Wilson mags inserted smoothly into a Les Baer and a RIA. In my case, it seemed to be the gun specs instead of the mag design.

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Old 07-01-2013, 08:10   #50
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For all you old boys who just "got to stuff more 45's in those mags," Here ya go ! HaHa..

Caliber Corner


Now, no more worries... haha.


Enjoy !



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