GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-27-2013, 15:41   #1
GLK19
Senior Member
 
GLK19's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Long Island , NY
Posts: 830
FBI nay be switching back to 9MM

My friends at the Bureau who keep up on firearms and tactics issues affecting them told me that the agency is seriously considering going back to 9mm (but staying with Glock)

The reasoning they supposedly have are:

1. The difference (in their opinion now) in terminal ballistics between .40 and 9mm is minimal.

2. The 9mm is more shooter friendly (read: for females)

3. The 9mm is a lower pressure round which they feel may alleviate some recurring maintenance/breakage issues they have been seeing.

Its very interesting but to be honest a lot of people right here and other forums who take self defense seriously have been stating this for a while. I don't have a problem with the 40 however I don't really care for the muzzle flip inherit with this round as I like to get as many rounds on target as quickly as I can.

I tell a lot of people who ask me, the following: get the biggest round in the most reliable gun you can become proficient in and train, train, train.

9MM is a very good defensive round
__________________
NY State/NYPD/FBI Firearms Instructor
Glock/Sig/S&W/Beretta/AR-15 Armorer
NINERS CLUB MEMBER # 221
1911 CLUB MEMBER # 221
BIG DAWGS CLUB MEMBER # 1239
GLK19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2013, 15:46   #2
03scgt
Senior Member
 
03scgt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: South Florida
Posts: 531
Really its a smart decision all around.more shooter friendly,cheaper,easier on parts and just as capable of stopping someone as any other round.

Its all up to the shooter to place the shots where they count,you do your job and the bullet will surely do its.
03scgt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2013, 16:01   #3
clarkz71
Senior Member
 
clarkz71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,608
I have no problem with the 9mm, but I like the .40 too.

So I bought both.
__________________
Quote:
Real Men of Genius....Here's to you, Mister self proclaimed-genius-surrounded by idiots!
.
G23 gen3 .40/.357 Sig
Florida Glocker #1923
clarkz71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2013, 16:04   #4
series1811
CLM Number
Enforcerator.
 
series1811's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Retired, but not expired.
Posts: 14,311
I've already switched back to 9mm.
__________________
I sure miss the country I grew up in.
series1811 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2013, 16:27   #5
barth
six barrels
 
barth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: The Free Zone
Posts: 5,231
With modern ammunition - 9mm is proving to be a viable service caliber.
I would not be surprised to see more LE migrate to 9mm going forward.

Last edited by barth; 06-27-2013 at 16:27..
barth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2013, 16:40   #6
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
fastbolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Within the lightning (Northern CA)
Posts: 9,872
Wouldn't surprise me if they decide to change back to all agents using 9mm. They do have some folks still using 9mm. (Remember their disparate impact suit?)

I remember when my former agency changed over from general issue use of 9mm to general issue of both .40 S&W and .45 ACP. (Some limited numbers of single stack 9's remained in-service, for those small numbers of shooters with smaller hands and more sensitivity to felt recoil, and some more were ordered.)

Now, it appears that when new guns are ordered, issued users will be given a choice of 9, .40 or .45, and they can also once again carry personally-owned weapons chambered in any of those approved 3 calibers (from an approved list of 3 of the major gun companies).

I suspect we'll see more 9's being carried, although there's always going to be the folks who will favor .45 ACP. So far, the reasoning I've heard offered for returning to 9mm is similar to that expressed elsewhere. Specifically, that the 9's terminal ballistics (using any of the premium-type hollowpoints) has demonstrated an acceptable level of performance, and that felt recoil levels & overall controllability are going to be more favorable to a wider range of users.

While I carried both .40 & .45 issued weapons prior to my retirement, I'd have been perfectly content to have continued carrying my last issued 6906 until the end of my career.

I've been a longtime owner & user of .45 pistols, and acclimated myself to the .40 starting back in 2000, but I still own and use a fair number of 9's.

That's certainly different than when I was a young cop, and thought the only semiauto pistol worth carrying was a .45 ACP.

It's been described by different gun companies over the years that 9mm is easier on guns than .45, and .40 is harder on guns than both 9 & .45 ... with .357 sometimes being described as being harder on guns than any of the rest.
__________________
Sub Club #9; .40 S&W Club #1953; S&W Club #3913
Retired LE - firearms instructor/armorer

Last edited by fastbolt; 06-28-2013 at 10:16..
fastbolt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2013, 16:48   #7
WayneJessie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,304
Quote:
Originally Posted by GLK19 View Post
My friends at the Bureau who keep up on firearms and tactics issues affecting them told me that the agency is seriously considering going back to 9mm (but staying with Glock)

The reasoning they supposedly have are:

1. The difference (in their opinion now) in terminal ballistics between .40 and 9mm is minimal.

2. The 9mm is more shooter friendly (read: for females)

3. The 9mm is a lower pressure round which they feel may alleviate some recurring maintenance/breakage issues they have been seeing.

Its very interesting but to be honest a lot of people right here and other forums who take self defense seriously have been stating this for a while. I don't have a problem with the 40 however I don't really care for the muzzle flip inherit with this round as I like to get as many rounds on target as quickly as I can.

I tell a lot of people who ask me, the following: get the biggest round in the most reliable gun you can become proficient in and train, train, train.

9MM is a very good defensive round
Recurring maintenance issues/breaking? Can you expand on that?
__________________
I'd own a Glock; were it not for Glock owners.
WayneJessie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2013, 16:49   #8
Buki192327
Senior Member
 
Buki192327's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: S W Ohio, blowin in the wind
Posts: 5,513
I was talking with a retired Dayton, OH officer a couple of days ago. He told me the Dayton PD, is going away from the .40SW. They are going back to the .45ACP.

The officers are claiming they can't get a 2nd shot off, accurately and fast enough, with the .40SW.
__________________
:crying:Too soon Old, Too late smart:wow:


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Club #46
Buki192327 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2013, 16:55   #9
dkf
Senior Member
 
dkf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,611
Quote:
3. The 9mm is a lower pressure round which they feel may alleviate some recurring maintenance/breakage issues they have been seeing.
Std pressure 9mm max is 35k psi, 9mm +P max is 38,500psi. The 9mm +P+ is even higher. Max pressure for .40sw is 35k psi.

Don't sound like they keep up with things very well.

Last edited by dkf; 06-27-2013 at 16:58..
dkf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2013, 17:04   #10
oldman11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,724
Maybe someone should remind the FBI about the shootout in Florida some years back when they were using 9mm. If I remember correctly they lost 3 or 4 agents and didn't take 1 bad guy down. They were using cars for barricades and the 9's won't go through car doors. That's when they swore of 9's. But I guess time cures all wounds.
__________________
Travel light and come well balanced.
Willie Nelson as Doc Holiday
in Stagecoach
oldman11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2013, 17:07   #11
Catshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: South East South Dakota
Posts: 1,353
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkf View Post
Std pressure 9mm max is 35k psi, 9mm +P max is 38,500psi. The 9mm +P+ is even higher. Max pressure for .40sw is 35k psi.

Don't sound like they keep up with things very well.
It's the FBI. You can't expect much.


Cat
__________________
Think for yourself.
Catshooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2013, 17:10   #12
donmor53
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 288
I would not feel...and have not felt...the least bit undergunned carrying a quality 9mm with some of the modern self defense ammunition loads.

Too many times I have carried my 3913TSW with a spare mag when clothing required of just plain comfort won out.

Doing such...I feared no evil.
donmor53 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2013, 17:20   #13
JBP55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 8,270
Louisiana State Police issues a G22 (G35 for SWAT) with the option of carrying a G17 as many other local Agencies do. I was told recently that LSP is going all 9mm.
JBP55 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2013, 17:23   #14
WayneJessie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,304
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman11 View Post
Maybe someone should remind the FBI about the shootout in Florida some years back when they were using 9mm. If I remember correctly they lost 3 or 4 agents and didn't take 1 bad guy down. They were using cars for barricades and the 9's won't go through car doors. That's when they swore of 9's. But I guess time cures all wounds.
It's just a fact that those types of shootings have the FBI carrying rifle-power with them so hanguns will not be in play to the extent they were then. Plus, they have more than enough drones in the air to deal with any citizen whether he be a real threat or not. This ain't the same America it was back when that shooting took place.
__________________
I'd own a Glock; were it not for Glock owners.

Last edited by WayneJessie; 06-27-2013 at 17:24..
WayneJessie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2013, 17:29   #15
D.S.Brown
Senior Member
 
D.S.Brown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: North Texas
Posts: 1,321
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman11 View Post
Maybe someone should remind the FBI about the shootout in Florida some years back when they were using 9mm. If I remember correctly they lost 3 or 4 agents and didn't take 1 bad guy down. They were using cars for barricades and the 9's won't go through car doors. That's when they swore of 9's. But I guess time cures all wounds.
Two agents were killed, the rest shot up pretty badly. My understanding was the "offending" bullet was Winchester Silver Tips in 115 grain. Supposedly not enough penetration, and thus the initial issuing of the S&W 1006 in 10mm, that not all agents could shoot well. It was a big gun! This lead to the downloading of the 10mm to the .40 S&W.

A couple of things. The Illinois State Police had up until a few years ago, been using 9mm since the late 60's. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the 115 grain 9mm +P+ considered the traditional load of this agency. I'm sure they've put down a significant number of bad guys with this round. NYC Transit police were using 124 grain Gold Dots in the Mid 90's with effectiveness, and likely one of the reasons that when they got swallowed up by NYPD, the latter would ultimately choose the same load to run through their guns.

There are easily people WAAAAY more qualified to discuss ballistics and bullets with authority than myself. My understanding is that bullet technology has improved tremendously over the last 25 years. For instance my load of choice presently is the 147 grain Gold Dots. Back in 1990 when I first picked up a Sig P226 the "load"I used was the 147 grain Federal Hydra-Shoks. The difference between now and then is that in '90 those Hydra-Shoks were meant to be fired from suppressed MP-5 submachine guns. Out of the P226 I might have gotten good penetration, but expansion was likely to be iffy at best. Whereas today with my Gold Dots, and I expect any quality 147 grain load made today will likely expand reliably.

I highly doubt anyone carrying a 9mm is undergunned.

Best,

Dave
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Last edited by D.S.Brown; 06-27-2013 at 17:30..
D.S.Brown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2013, 17:31   #16
Roering
Sorting nuts
 
Roering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,578
I hope they do.

More .40 for me!
__________________
------------------------------------------------------
Warranty voiding

Never buy vegan tacos from a chick with longer armpit hair than yourself. - Woofie
Roering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2013, 17:38   #17
donmor53
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by D.S.Brown View Post
Two agents were killed, the rest shot up pretty badly. My understanding was the "offending" bullet was Winchester Silver Tips in 115 grain. Supposedly not enough penetration, and thus the initial issuing of the S&W 1006 in 10mm, that not all agents could shoot well. It was a big gun! This lead to the downloading of the 10mm to the .40 S&W.

A couple of things. The Illinois State Police had up until a few years ago, been using 9mm since the late 60's. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the 115 grain 9mm +P+ considered the traditional load of this agency. I'm sure they've put down a significant number of bad guys with this round. NYC Transit police were using 124 grain Gold Dots in the Mid 90's with effectiveness, and likely one of the reasons that when they got swallowed up by NYPD, the latter would ultimately choose the same load to run through their guns.

There are easily people WAAAAY more qualified to discuss ballistics and bullets with authority than myself. My understanding is that bullet technology has improved tremendously over the last 25 years. For instance my load of choice presently is the 147 grain Gold Dots. Back in 1990 when I first picked up a Sig P226 the "load"I used was the 147 grain Federal Hydra-Shoks. The difference between now and then is that in '90 those Hydra-Shoks were meant to be fired from suppressed MP-5 submachine guns. Out of the P226 I might have gotten good penetration, but expansion was likely to be iffy at best. Whereas today with my Gold Dots, and I expect any quality 147 grain load made today will likely expand reliably.

I highly doubt anyone carrying a 9mm is undergunned.

Best,

Dave

I had a DEA friend that used the Hydra-Shocks by the caseload because as you said...they fed well in his MP5. He then swithed over to the AR platform as an entry wesapon. Naturally...being his friend...during our shooting sessions...I acquired quite a bit of his "surplus" 9mm.

Hydra-Shocks in 9mm are still hard to beat (notice I said "hard"...not conclusively) for general service and realiability of function in a 9mm.
donmor53 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2013, 17:41   #18
oldman11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,724
Actually one of them was shooting a .357 magnum and the other one was shooting a mini-14.
__________________
Travel light and come well balanced.
Willie Nelson as Doc Holiday
in Stagecoach
oldman11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2013, 18:12   #19
MJB
Senior Member
 
MJB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Illinois
Posts: 593
Oh great now 9mm will be even more scarce.


MJB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2013, 18:55   #20
Glock 23 Nutter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 788
The 9mm/147 gr. HST is a great round, but it is not a .40/180 gr. HST.

9mm does not expand as reliably as larger calibers. (although the HST comes close)

This reeks of "no agents/troopers left behind".

The reality of common ammo in a firefight is a plus. That, along w/ a few extra rounds, along w/ a little better marksmanship from the "weak-sisters" (of both genders) might tip it.

But ammo selection would be critical.




Nutter
Glock 23 Nutter is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:51.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 703
216 Members
487 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31