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Old 06-26-2013, 15:34   #101
FLIPPER 348
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Originally Posted by mhambi View Post
Yeah, cause we've never said anything in a treaty out of political expediency to get what we wanted...



... right Native Americans?




Ignoring the religious influence in the founding of our country is as disingenuous as saying it was all because of the Christians.








Edited to add.... Just for disclosure... I think the Supreme Court was right.



Somebody gets it
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Old 06-26-2013, 15:35   #102
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http://washingtonexaminer.com/obama-...rticle/2532418

You are such a liar.

I can/t believe I'm witnessing the self destruction of a nation.
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Old 06-26-2013, 15:36   #103
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Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348 View Post
Then why does it say God or our currency and now in our Pledge? .....along with all the other examples in the post I replied to????
The word "God" on money and in the pledge was added in the mid-1900s due to a push by the politically powerful Christian community.

As much as militant atheists make my skin crawl, the school of thought that revises history and pulls out of completely fabricated whole cloth that America was "founded as a Christian nation" is even more troubling.
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Old 06-26-2013, 15:49   #104
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Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348 View Post
Then why does it say God or our currency and now in our Pledge? .....along with all the other examples in the post I replied to????
Because of the self-same religious right-wing of politics that is active today and was active in the 50s, who wanted to draw a distinct line against the "Godless Communists" of the Soviet Union.

The country was officially founded in 1776, with the revolution ending in 1783.

The Pledge of Allegiance was crafted originally in 1892, but wasn't officially adopted by the US until 1942, with the following text:
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands; one Nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all."
'Under God' wasn't added until 1954.

And "In God we trust" wasn't adopted as a motto until 1956, 180 years AFTER the founding of the country.


You claim that some here need to study history. I completely and totally support that statement.
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Old 06-26-2013, 15:51   #105
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Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348 View Post
Somebody gets it
And yet, you STILL haven't given any valid response to any of the words of the Founding Fathers that completely, demonstrably show exactly how wrong you are.



Curious how that could be.....
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Old 06-26-2013, 16:00   #106
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Old 06-26-2013, 16:00   #107
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
You claim that some here need to study history. I completely and totally support that statement.
But generalities and non-contextual quotes are so much easier!


"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence." -John Adams

(now where have I seen that name before.... oh right! On the Treaty of Tripoli)

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ." - Thomas Jefferson (abracadabra indeed!)


...ad infinitum
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Old 06-26-2013, 16:01   #108
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Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348 View Post
Then why does it say God or our currency and now in our Pledge? .....along with all the other examples in the post I replied to????
Because in the 1950s we had to distinguish ourselves from those godless commies.

Francis Bellamy, the minister who wrote the pledge, did not find a need to include "under God".
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Old 06-26-2013, 16:06   #109
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Originally Posted by mhambi View Post
Yeah, cause we've never said anything in a treaty out of political expediency to get what we wanted...
The treaty was unanimously ratified, but all of these Christians were okay signing that this was not a Christian nation.

Kind of Christian takkiya I suppose.
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Old 06-26-2013, 16:09   #110
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Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape View Post
Because in the 1950s we had to distinguish ourselves from those godless commies.
Why couldn't we have just been godless capitalists?

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Old 06-26-2013, 16:12   #111
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Old 06-26-2013, 16:21   #112
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Originally Posted by mhambi View Post
"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ." - Thomas Jefferson (abracadabra indeed!)
Here's the real quote with additional context:
To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; & believing he never claimed any other. -- Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Benjamin Rush (12 April 1803)
That "believing he never claimed any other" is Jefferson qualifying that he doesn't believe that Jesus ever claimed to be anything more than human.

When Jefferson created the "Jefferson Bible", he removed from the Gospels anything appearing unreasonable (prophecies and miracles); he removed Revelation, all the letters of Paul (who Jefferson referred to as the "first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus") as well as letters of Peter, John, James and Jude; his New Testament ended with the death of Jesus -- you can pick it up for about $2 at the Amazon Kindle store.

When Jefferson sent his edited New Testament (what he called his Syllabus) to his secretary and former protege, William Short, in 1820, Jefferson explained:
While this syllabus is meant to place the character of Jesus in its true and high light, as no imposter himself, but a great Reformer of the Hebrew code of religion, it is not to be understood that I am with him in all of his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of spiritualism. He preaches the efficacy of repentance towards forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it, etc., etc.

It is the innocence of his character, the purity and sublimity of his moral precepts, the eloquence of his inculcations, the beauty of the apologues in which he conveys them, that I so much admire; sometimes, indeed, needing indulgence to eastern hyperbolism. My eulogies, too, may be founded on a postulate which all may not be ready to grant. Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others, again, of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate, therefore, the gold from the dross; restore to him the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, and roguery of others of his disciples.
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Old 06-26-2013, 16:22   #113
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Flipper, there is concise and positive evidence to the contrary in this thread that you are overlooking.
He's not overlooking it. He is well aware of it. But he's in denial.
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Old 06-26-2013, 16:24   #114
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What did you expect? This is the same court that ruled that corporations have the same rights as people.
A corporation is a body of people who combine their resources for a purpose. Why wouldn't they retain their rights?
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Old 06-26-2013, 16:26   #115
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Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348 View Post
Then why does it say God or our currency and now in our Pledge? .....along with all the other examples in the post I replied to????
Neither the pledge nor In God We Trust was done by the founders. I thought you were well-versed in history?
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Old 06-26-2013, 16:31   #116
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Originally Posted by JBnTX View Post

Any takers?

I'll buy you a nice ring and we can honeymoon at the local Motel 6.

..
Sorry JB, I am happily married.



.
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Old 06-26-2013, 16:40   #117
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Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape View Post
The treaty was unanimously ratified, but all of these Christians were okay signing that this was not a Christian nation.

Kind of Christian takkiya I suppose.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that the treaty meant that the government was not founded as a Christian theocracy, where the church held political power. But that line does not mean that the people were not Christian, and the societal mores were not based upon Christian principles.

Remember, they were dealing with Muslim nations, where the "church" did hold the political power. They were trying to make the point that the government of the US was not ran by the likes of the Church of England and we would not make war based on difference in religion alone.
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Old 06-26-2013, 16:45   #118
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Cute tag
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Old 06-26-2013, 16:47   #119
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess
You can guess all you'd like, but the wording of the treaty is pretty damn unambiguous:
Quote:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion
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Old 06-26-2013, 17:01   #120
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
You can guess all you'd like, but the wording of the treaty is pretty damn unambiguous:
Quote:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion
Look at that word in bold, Government and go back and read what I wrote...

The statement in that treaty was saying that the US Government was not a Christian Theocracy.... it in no way means that the nation was not founded by Christian people, following Christian principles.... They are simply saying that the Church does not have governmental powers.
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Old 06-26-2013, 17:31   #121
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Look at that word in bold, Government and go back and read what I wrote...

The statement in that treaty was saying that the US Government was not a Christian Theocracy.... it in no way means that the nation was not founded by Christian people, following Christian principles.... They are simply saying that the Church does not have governmental powers.
There is no "United States of America" without the government being created. It's just a bunch of spaces on a map, perhaps even separate nations, an area that would look like Africa.

If you're seriously trying to say that talking about the FOUNDING of the nation being completely unrelated to the government, then you're about as far out of touch with reality as Flipper, because that's just absurd.
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Old 06-26-2013, 17:34   #122
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Bigots beware: head back to your basements and bunkers; human rights means EVERYBODY IS TREATED THE SAME, not just straight, white Christians.

In before all the butthurt!
That works both ways. I'm sick of minorities crying for equality and then asking for more once they get equality. The Supreme Court is right in ruling that homosexual couples should get equal treatment. My only problem is they think a word should be redefined instead of coming up with something else that would have a special meaning to them and found just as wonderful as the word marriage. If they could do that I would be 100% on board. As William Shakespeare wrote in Romeo & Juliet, ”A rose by any other name would still smell just as sweet.”

Last edited by domin8ss; 06-26-2013 at 17:39..
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Old 06-26-2013, 17:40   #123
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I'm just so happy! Now I can marry my Father and avoid a couple of million in Federal estate taxes we'd otherwise have to pay. Once I marry him I get the benefit of the marital deduction and won't have to pay a dime! God I love that man....

Hah...go pound sand you money grabbing libs!
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Old 06-26-2013, 17:45   #124
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I'm just so happy! Now I can marry my Father and avoid a couple of million in Federal estate taxes we'd otherwise have to pay. Once I marry him I get the benefit of the marital deduction and won't have to pay a dime! God I love that man....

Hah...go pound sand you money grabbing libs!
Wow, you really think that gay couples being able to marry will bring about making it legal to marry your dad? Can you marry your mom right now and do the same thing? This is the worst arguement I have ever heard against gary marridge.
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Old 06-26-2013, 17:51   #125
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Well, lemme know when I can marry my cat. I need to get on his benefits.

But serious question, does this mean that laws about polygamy and such are toast?

Not that I'd be fool enough to get a bunch of wives.
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