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View Poll Results: Is this a muscle car era?
Yes, its the new muscle era 74 52.86%
No, only the originals are true muscle cars. 66 47.14%
Voters: 140. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-26-2013, 19:13   #51
FireForged
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Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
If you look, a corvette has as "computer" as any car out there. A pushrod engine has no less electronics that an double over head cam engine. The difference is mechanical.




What is a car you see at a red light?
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Originally Posted by ilgunguygt View Post
Actually, you are wrong about that. Most DOHC engines do have more sensors than pushrod engines.
yep.. GunGuy is correct

a current corvette has a lot less electronics than say a 370Z or M3 and it does have a little something to do with it being a pushrod v8but that's not all of it. I like to point out that its a pushrod v8 mostly because its still a traditional v8 that most people can work on. You don't have to remove 5 logic boards and 3 different ECU's to just change the battery. You don't need 3 laptops to fix it once you have changed the battery. LOL

Cars I have seen at the red light during their era are all the car I have mentioned. My list of cars do not include exotic cars that were not typically owned by the common joe during its particular hay-day.
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Old 06-26-2013, 19:25   #52
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Originally Posted by Mr30s View Post
I should have made this a poll so that people could vote on old vs new muscle car
A poll of old vs new muscle car would be interesting.

The new area of cars obviously has advantages so I wouldn't be surprised if they'd win the poll, but...

For me using computers, electronics, sensors, etc... on todays cars just isn't the same as a purely mechanical beast with great lines & excellent style.

I'm old school, original, classic, etc... all the way here!
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Old 06-26-2013, 19:26   #53
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a whole ****load of you are not just wrong but dead wrong.

you're trying to compare then and now. example a 1970's camaro vs. a current camaro.

what your nostalgia blinds you to is the fact that the camaro of the 60's-70's was the top of the line, high end tech of it's day in that price bracket, just like the current camaro is to this generation.

in 30 years the 2013 camaros, challengers, chargers, dart, and vettes will be just as sought after to that generation as the old school versions are to us, and for the exact same reasons.

don't be a moron and diss this current generation because it's not your grandaddy's muscle car, be smart and invest in what you can afford and then store it away for future generations.

imagine finding an all original, matching #'s 1965 mustangwith 120 miles showing in a barn. you can set that up for yourself or your future kids if you buy a current gen "muscle car" now and put it up.
I admire the sentiment, but you are wrong.

The cars of the sixties are valuable today partly because they were so poorly made. It took a great deal of care, possible mothballing, or restoration to have one that remained desirable thirty years later.

A 1965 Mustang driven 10,000 miles per year was garbage by 1977, while a 2004 Mustang driven 10,000 miles per year remains reliable good looking transportation today.

The $4k spent on that new '65 Mustang invested in even the broad market would a few perfect examples today, not counting the tremendous storage expense.

Romantically, I get it. They look good, they sound good. Good investments? Seldom. Good cars? Eh, for the time. Good performance? Think modern V6 SUV as a benchmark. And for folks of the era, they are a nostalgia trigger.

Remember though, the youth of today are less car focused and don't live in the era of cars that decompose in ten years. Someone who wants a '93 Camaro can pick from 80% of them ever built, all on Craigslist cheap.

The "time capsule" fantasy has never worked on an NPV basis, and likely never will.
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Old 06-26-2013, 19:46   #54
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don't be a moron and diss this current generation because it's not your grandaddy's muscle car
Im not, my Grandaddy was born in 1907.. I am talking about cars of the 1960s.

Fast doesn't make it a muscle car.. if you don't understand what I mean by that, I cant explain it. My Wifes Altima can beat my 1969 Camaro in the quarter mile but that Altima is not a muscle car.
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Old 06-26-2013, 20:00   #55
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Originals for nostalgia and cool factor.

New ones for reliability, performance, and longevity.
Right on.
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Old 06-26-2013, 20:02   #56
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IIRC, the V6 Camrys can run with any of the older muscle cars.
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Old 06-26-2013, 20:05   #57
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IIRC, the V6 Camrys can run with any of the older muscle cars.
Sure they can... they can probably beat most muscle cars of the 60s in the quarter mile but they are not muscle cars and nobody is gonna be kool in a camry.
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Old 06-26-2013, 20:06   #58
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The difference with old muscle cars is that they were ABLE to be restored. The thin sheet metal and plastic crap on the modern cars is not going to hold up long-term. When today's cars are 40 years old, they won't be worth fooling with.
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Old 06-26-2013, 20:09   #59
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The difference with old muscle cars is that they were ABLE to be restored. The thin sheet metal and plastic crap on the modern cars is not going to hold up long-term. When today's cars are 40 years old, they won't be worth fooling with.
I recently found a 1986 Conquest TSI that was in a garage and darn near turned to dust. I had hopes to restore it but there was just no way. Down the street there is a 1955 chevy that has been sitting under a pine tree for 40 years that is in better shape.
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Old 06-26-2013, 20:27   #60
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a whole ****load of you are not just wrong but dead wrong.
No, you are wrong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BEER View Post
you're trying to compare then and now. example a 1970's camaro vs. a current camaro.

what your nostalgia blinds you to is the fact that the camaro of the 60's-70's was the top of the line, high end tech of it's day in that price bracket, just like the current camaro is to this generation.
Yeah, and...

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Originally Posted by BEER View Post
in 30 years the 2013 camaros, challengers, chargers, dart, and vettes will be just as sought after to that generation as the old school versions are to us, and for the exact same reasons.
No, you are wrong again. I'll give you an example: 20 years ago, the ZR1 came out. It was the "king of the hill". Is that same ZR1 going up in value today? I seem to remember muscle cars, big block muscle cars going up in prices in the late 80's early 90's.

Almost 30 years later, no one cares about, early 80's F-bodies, and vettes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BEER View Post
don't be a moron and diss this current generation because it's not your grandaddy's muscle car,
Yes, call people names when they don't agree with your opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BEER View Post
be smart and invest in what you can afford and then store it away for future generations.
Today's cars won't last 30 years. I have a 30 year old Z/28. Plastic, doesn't stand up too well.

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Originally Posted by BEER View Post
imagine finding an all original, matching #'s 1965 mustangwith 120 miles showing in a barn. you can set that up for yourself or your future kids if you buy a current gen "muscle car" now and put it up.
No, I'd rather have an original.

Thanks.
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Old 06-26-2013, 20:46   #61
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My Subaru wagon handles better and goes faster in muck and snow than any of your muscle cars

I had a 74 dodge dart swinger 2-door 6 cyl that was kinda cool looking, but handled like crap in the snow.

Love the looks of a 66 Chevelle. That was my dream car back in the day. 20 yr old ones, in seemingly good shape, were going for about $5,000 when new economy fwd hatchbacks were going for about $7,000. Guess which one I bought? As close as I ever got to buying a muscle car.

But at least the hatchback did handle good in the snow, with 4 radial snows on it.

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Old 06-26-2013, 20:51   #62
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Originally Posted by FireForged View Post
a current corvette has a lot less electronics than say a 370Z or M3 and it does have a little something to do with it being a pushrod v8but that's not all of it. I like to point out that its a pushrod v8 mostly because its still a traditional v8 that most people can work on.
How many sensors does a 370Z have. How many sensors does a Z06 have? You are making the the assertion that one has more than another, so how many does each have?

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Originally Posted by FireForged View Post
Cars I have seen at the red light during their era are all the car I have mentioned. My list of cars do not include exotic cars that were not typically owned by the common joe during its particular hay-day.
I still have no idea what you mean by "red light." Do you mean the Christmas tree?
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Old 06-26-2013, 20:56   #63
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Sure they can... they can probably beat most muscle cars of the 60s in the quarter mile but they are not muscle cars and nobody is gonna be kool in a camry.
Kool is relative. IF you want the high maintenance style woman, a muscle car wont be anywhere near kool.

My wife says that the only men who drive old muscle cars, camaros, and mustangs are men who havent grown up. She calls them boy racer cars.

Just look at this:

The Okie Corral

IROC-Z. The EPITOME of coolness.
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Old 06-26-2013, 21:04   #64
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Kool is relative. IF you want the high maintenance style woman, a muscle car wont be anywhere near kool.

My wife says that the only men who drive old muscle cars, camaros, and mustangs are men who havent grown up. She calls them boy racer cars.

Just look at this:

The Okie Corral

IROC-Z. The EPITOME of coolness.
I had a white 89 IROC . It was cool. That one has 91-92 ground effects.
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Old 06-26-2013, 21:06   #65
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I have owned the same 67 chevelle for 22 years, no plans on selling it.

Only recently have new cars become available that I can buy new and would keep for the next 20 years. Today's muscle cars are better in every way except perhaps styling and an association with good times from yesteryear. The styling is subjective and the nostalgia is generational, so they are both just preferences.
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Old 06-26-2013, 21:08   #66
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The difference with old muscle cars is that they were ABLE to be restored. The thin sheet metal and plastic crap on the modern cars is not going to hold up long-term. When today's cars are 40 years old, they won't be worth fooling with.
Pretty much the opposite. The cars of the sixties were thrown together crap. They used thick steel (sometimes) because they didn't really understand steel, and were not capable of making the steel and other materials used today.

The cars from 1993 look FAR better today than the cars of 1965 did in 1985. Not even close.

Forty years from now (barring a major tech change), the cars of today will be so common, they won't be worth restoring. There will still be too many of them to make a restoration worthwhile.

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Old 06-26-2013, 21:08   #67
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No, you are wrong again. I'll give you an example: 20 years ago, the ZR1 came out. It was the "king of the hill". Is that same ZR1 going up in value today? I seem to remember muscle cars, big block muscle cars going up in prices in the late 80's early 90's.

Almost 30 years later, no one cares about, early 80's F-bodies, and vettes.
You are mistaking why some car appreciate and some don't.

1) They typically need to be desirable when new. The ZR-1 (4 valve generation) was not that desirable when new. It was stuck between a vette and exotics. Overpriced for what it was. If people dont dream of them new, thay wont have value when old.

2) Production quantities. There were so many 80s. 90s, and 2000s camaros and mustangs made that it will be very unlikely that they will appreciate except for some very special, low production models.

Then people see the TV shows with the expensive car auctions. They see a Yenko Camaro in perfect condition fetch a good price. They instantly believe that their rust bucket 1971 6-cylinder Camaro is worth $150K.

Look at the price differences between say a 1969 Mustang coupe and a 1969 Mustang Fastback. Then look at what happens to the price when it is a Mach 1 or a Boss 429 (some have sold for $375k).

To command the prices that people think these are worth, you have to have the right buyer.
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Old 06-26-2013, 21:09   #68
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I had a white 89 IROC . It was cool. That one has 91-92 ground effects.
You are the living embodiment of cool then.

Were you ever out cruising?
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Old 06-26-2013, 21:20   #69
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Old cars certainly look cool.


But as far as performance, yeah, today is definitely better than the underpowered cars of yesteryear.
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Old 06-26-2013, 21:32   #70
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You are mistaking why some car appreciate and some don't.

1) They typically need to be desirable when new. The ZR-1 (4 valve generation) was not that desirable when new. It was stuck between a vette and exotics. Overpriced for what it was. If people dont dream of them new, thay wont have value when old.
When ZR1s first came out they were very much in demand/desirable. They were selling for more than sticker. I still have magazines from the era.

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2) Production quantities. There were so many 80s. 90s, and 2000s camaros and mustangs made that it will be very unlikely that they will appreciate except for some very special, low production models.
I'll use the ZR1, again. The production for 5 years was like 6000.

There are a number of limited production cars from the 80s. Off the top of my head:
Buick GNX
89 turbo Trans Am
SVO mustang
1LE Camaro
Firehawk TA
Saleen Mustang
Monte Carlo Aerocoupe
Corvette Challenge racer
Callaway Corvette

I'm sure I'm missing a few... Are they appreciating? IDK.

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Look at the price differences between say a 1969 Mustang coupe and a 1969 Mustang Fastback. Then look at what happens to the price when it is a Mach 1 or a Boss 429 (some have sold for $375k).
I understand the differences.

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To command the prices that people think these are worth, you have to have the right buyer.
And demand.

There will always be demand for early vettes and original muscle.
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Old 06-26-2013, 21:34   #71
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There will always be demand for early vettes and original muscle.
When the folks who grew up with those cars are gone, most (though certainly not all) of the demand will be gone as well.
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Old 06-26-2013, 21:35   #72
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You are the living embodiment of cool then.

Were you ever out cruising?
Is the Pope Catholic?

I remember the things said about IROC owners:

IROC

Immature
Retards
Out
Cruising

I
Reek
Of
Cologne

I fit in there somewhere .....
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Old 06-26-2013, 21:42   #73
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Greatest muscle/pony car era now?? No way. While limited by the technology of the day, muscle cars peaked in 1969-1970. What car made today could be compared with a Road Runner Superbird, LS6 Chevelle, Boss Mustang, W30 Olds, L88 Vette and a ton of others. These old guys had style, power and were great cars for their day.

I daily drive a Gen IV Camaro with LS series engine. Great car for commuting, decent power, mileage and reliable as a rock. Head turner, no way. Same for all the newer model muscle cars, fantastic cars for daily drive but Detroit seems to have forgot how to put chrome and style back in a car - too much plastic!! Retro is nice but it reminds me more of fake boobs - appealing at first but not quite the real thing.

I am fortunate enough to still own a 69 Camaro I had in high school. While the original drive train is long gone, its current 427 big block, assembled with period correct GM parts, hangs just fine in 1/4 mile with the new stuff. Old magazine articles aside, most of the original muscle cars were crippled with small, crap tires - modern rubber goes a long way.

Last summer I got to park my 69 along side a bunch of Gen V Camaro's at the local pizza place for an informal car show. Guess which car got the most interest.
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Old 06-26-2013, 21:44   #74
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When ZR1s first came out they were very much in demand/desirable. They were selling for more than sticker. I still have magazines from the era.

I'll use the ZR1, again. The production for 5 years was like 6000.

There are a number of limited production cars from the 80s. Off the top of my head:
Buick GNX
89 turbo Trans Am
SVO mustang
1LE Camaro
Firehawk TA
Saleen Mustang
Monte Carlo Aerocoupe
Corvette Challenge racer
Callaway Corvette
Buick GNX = worth money = people want them

89 turbo Trans Am= worth money = people want them but no so highly desirable when new. A TransAm was a V8

SVO mustang = worth nothing. Not a V8

1LE Camaro = no clue on pricing

Firehawk TA = no clue on pricing

Saleen Mustang = tuner car, not really that "special"

Monte Carlo Aerocoupe = WTF. Anyone would would pay any amount of money for a Monte Carlo should be shot on sight.

Corvette Challenge racer = Race cars are valuable to a very small group of people.

Callaway Corvette = tuner car, and not particularly good at that. Never were really all that in demand.
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Old 06-26-2013, 21:44   #75
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When the folks who grew up with those cars are gone, most (though certainly not all) of the demand will be gone as well.
There are vehicles from the '20's 30s that were in high demand then that are still in high demand now with people paying insane prices. Most of the people who grew up with them are gone, yet the demand is still there.

Some designs are timeless.
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