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Old 06-19-2013, 20:28   #201
AK_Stick
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Damn your fast flipper.
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Old 06-19-2013, 20:34   #202
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Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348 View Post
True, but nowhere near the flight hours of the 747 before the Flt 800 incident. Andf the design flaw was quicklu found.
No, the British thought that the breakup of BOAC flt 781 was due to a turbine explosion. It wasn't until SAA flt 201 crashed 3 months later that had extra armor installed around the turbine after the BOAC crash that the investigators considered other possibilities
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He's actually wrong, after 8-9 shots with a 9mm bullet, you actually get a text on your phone saying "You are being shot at by a 9mm, don't worry, just ignore him and walk away."
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Old 06-19-2013, 20:35   #203
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The coment was a 1st Generation jet airact. apples-oranges in this case



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Damn your fast flipper.


I have my moments.


.....and I have several in 747 fuel bays/tanks. It has to do with flamable -vs-combustable, you know that. Jet A is not flamable unless it is ataomized, nor are Jet A 'vapors'.


I don't buy the center fuel tank answer.

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Old 06-19-2013, 20:41   #204
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Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348 View Post
The coment was a 1st Generation jet airact. apples-oranges in this case
.
TWA flight 800 was a 747-100 and you know the old saying of flying the A model of anything
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He's actually wrong, after 8-9 shots with a 9mm bullet, you actually get a text on your phone saying "You are being shot at by a 9mm, don't worry, just ignore him and walk away."
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Old 06-19-2013, 20:41   #205
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Damn your fast flipper.
That's what she said.
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I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
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Old 06-19-2013, 20:44   #206
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....you've been reading my mail!
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Old 06-19-2013, 20:44   #207
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Camber wear on the 747 tires?

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Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 06-19-2013, 20:45   #208
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TWA flight 800 was a 747-100 and you know the old saying of flying the A model of anything

An early model of a design that had been flying for 28 years.
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Old 06-19-2013, 20:56   #209
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Originally Posted by Restless28 View Post
The accounts are as credible as Bigfoot sightings.
Can you elaborate is to why all of these people should be ignored? It's not as if 1-2 drunk fisherman reported this. Dozens of people said the same thing including trained pilots who witnessed it. I guess they are all wrong?

Again, I'm not saying I believe it was missile, but I don't understand why you refuse to believe it could be anything other than the fuel tank explosion.

Perhaps you could go start a few more automobile threads. I think it's been at least an hour since your latest. You clearly have nothing valuable to offer to this thread, instead you would rather claim that everyone who disagrees with you and the NTSB is a conspiracy theorist.
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Old 06-19-2013, 21:01   #210
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So no missile would have made it from the ground, why couldn't it be fired from a Cessna at 8k? I don't think it was but just asking.

Seems to me the possibilities are:
Aircraft failure - the given cause
Military accident - not possible to hide
Terrorist missile strike - why hide?
Terrorist bomb - why hide?
Government hit - why?
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Old 06-19-2013, 21:15   #211
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One question I have if it was a terrorist attack, as far as I know or remember, there was no claim by any terrorist group?


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Old 06-19-2013, 21:28   #212
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Originally Posted by RenoF250 View Post
So no missile would have made it from the ground, why couldn't it be fired from a Cessna at 8k? I don't think it was but just asking.

Seems to me the possibilities are:
Aircraft failure - the given cause
Military accident - not possible to hide
Terrorist missile strike - why hide?
Terrorist bomb - why hide?
Government hit - why?
You missed one possible explanation.

It was a terrorist bombing but there was not enough evidence to say it definitively. Plus with no group claiming it as one of theirs they had no choice but to try to find a fault with the plane.

There are things in life you will never be able to find a clear answer. If Zapruder had been a few feet right we would have best evidence.
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I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
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Old 06-19-2013, 21:30   #213
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Originally Posted by GoBigOrange View Post
Can you elaborate is to why all of these people should be ignored? It's not as if 1-2 drunk fisherman reported this. Dozens of people said the same thing including trained pilots who witnessed it. I guess they are all wrong?

Again, I'm not saying I believe it was missile, but I don't understand why you refuse to believe it could be anything other than the fuel tank explosion.

Perhaps you could go start a few more automobile threads. I think it's been at least an hour since your latest. You clearly have nothing valuable to offer to this thread, instead you would rather claim that everyone who disagrees with you and the NTSB is a conspiracy theorist.
Because most people can't tell a fart from a nuclear explosion. They just don't know.

They hear a boom and see a spark and decide It is a missile. A missile does not leave a trail of fire. Burning leaking fuel does.

If anyone claims it was anything other than an accident then they should bring forward hard evidence.

Until then, they should probably just shut up.
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Old 06-19-2013, 21:50   #214
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"A missile does not leave a trail of fire."

Don't know a durn thing about this thread, except I know some of the SAMs I saw coming our way in NAM looked like a piece of burning magnesium headed up toward us, even in the daylight.
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Old 06-19-2013, 22:06   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RenoF250 View Post
So no missile would have made it from the ground, why couldn't it be fired from a Cessna at 8k? I don't think it was but just asking.
How about a shark with a freaking laser beam on his head?


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"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."

"If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters".

"A person who won't reason has no advantage over one who can't reason."

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."

“Ignorance is a lot like alcohol: the more you have of it, the less you are able to see its effect on you.”


Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 06-19-2013, 22:13   #216
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Originally Posted by Caver 60 View Post
"A missile does not leave a trail of fire."

Don't know a durn thing about this thread, except I know some of the SAMs I saw coming our way in NAM looked like a piece of burning magnesium headed up toward us, even in the daylight.
They leave a trail of smoke. Not fire. Only the boost phase have a big flame and that doesn't last long.

The SA-2 and SA-3 were used in Vietnam and both have an initial boos phase that separates from the missile itself.

Here's an SA-2 launch:

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Old 06-19-2013, 22:14   #217
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You missed one possible explanation.

It was a terrorist bombing but there was not enough evidence to say it definitively. Plus with no group claiming it as one of theirs they had no choice but to try to find a fault with the plane.

There are things in life you will never be able to find a clear answer. If Zapruder had been a few feet right we would have best evidence.
Terrorists are generally not smart enough to hide something like that. Especially when they are not inclined to. Making "accidents" is not terrorism.
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Old 06-19-2013, 23:45   #218
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Originally Posted by RenoF250 View Post
Terrorists are generally not smart enough to hide something like that. Especially when they are not inclined to. Making "accidents" is not terrorism.
That's kind of what I was going at. The only alternative to plane failure would be a terrorist attack where there is no evidence or at least not enough to pin it on that.

A missile fired from a Navy ship has waaaaay to many holes in it for it to work as a plausible theory.

A missile fired from a terrorist might be slightly more plausible but just like the bomb on board scenario no one is claiming responsibility for it.

People will believe what they want to believe. I think a lot of people who latch onto conspiracy theories are people who distrust the government and are falling for confirmation bias with implausible theories.
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I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
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Old 06-20-2013, 01:24   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RenoF250 View Post
So no missile would have made it from the ground, why couldn't it be fired from a Cessna at 8k? I don't think it was but just asking.

Seems to me the possibilities are:
Aircraft failure - the given cause
Military accident - not possible to hide
Terrorist missile strike - why hide?
Terrorist bomb - why hide?
Government hit - why?
A Gen 1 MANPAD, not designed to be fired from a moving airplane, isn't something you just strap under the wing, run a wire to and fire. Doesn't work like that.


It would also be highly improbable that you'd be able to mod a light commuter airplane with a surface to air missile, and not have anyone notice. They're fairly......obvious weapon systems. And Aviators, are a fairly snoopy lot.



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Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348 View Post
The coment was a 1st Generation jet airact. apples-oranges in this case







I have my moments.


.....and I have several in 747 fuel bays/tanks. It has to do with flamable -vs-combustable, you know that. Jet A is not flamable unless it is ataomized, nor are Jet A 'vapors'.


I don't buy the center fuel tank answer.
I'm not saying it was the CWT, I'm simply saying it wasn't a MANPAD, and the damage done/physical remains that were found, are inconsistent with a SAM strike.

Don't know what brought it down, but I know what it wasn't.
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Old 06-20-2013, 01:46   #220
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Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348 View Post

Jet A is not flamable unless it is ataomized, nor are Jet A 'vapors'.


I don't buy the center fuel tank answer.
Sure it is. The flash point of Jet A is 140 degrees F.

The hypothesis I read was that because the center fuel tank only had a few hundred gallons in it, and the air conditioning packs were in proximity to the tank, and the plane had an hour ground hold prior to take off with the AC operating, that the fuel was hotter than its flash point at the time of the accident.
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Old 06-20-2013, 02:04   #221
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Who here has read books on the subject, watched documentaries on the subject?

If all you have is 30 second sound bites in your memory from the evening news about this tragedy, you really should get up to speed about the lengths our gov goes to, to deceive our thinking.

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Old 06-20-2013, 02:18   #222
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However, I highly doubt you know anyone who knows much, or as much about MANPADs as I do, who thinks it was shot down with one.
You don't know that much about the 747, either.

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13-16K feet @ 400+ KIAS is not "low and slow" and was safely out of the engagement envelope for every MANPAD that was in use at that time.
That's not the climb profile of the 747. Typically for that aircraft it's 250 knots to 10,000', then at the departure weight for that flight, about 320 indicated. TWA 800 was low enough and slow enough to be hit, and the most obvious heat signature were the pack outlets...located directly adjacent to the center wing tank.

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The hypothesis I read was that because the center fuel tank only had a few hundred gallons in it, and the air conditioning packs were in proximity to the tank, and the plane had an hour ground hold prior to take off with the AC operating, that the fuel was hotter than its flash point at the time of the accident.
The CWT is not fueled until trip fuel exceeds 230,000 lbs in the wings. Fuel below 3,000 lbs in the CWT (that's 450 gallons) is scavenged, usually into the No. 2 main tank. A flight doesn't simply take off with a "only a few hundred gallons" as extra in the CWT. The CWT can't have fuel until the wing tanks are full.

Quote:
TWA flight 800 was a 747-100 and you know the old saying of flying the A model of anything
I know the 747-100 was a very good flying, reliable aircraft that saw a lot of service. I know that because I flew it.

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In the millions of hours on the 747, we should have seen something similar by now. Even if not catastrophic.
We haven't, nor have we seen any CWT issues, nor did anything turn up in the subsequent investigations and inspections of the CWT and FQIS (fuel quantity indication system) world wide, before, or after the event in question.
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Old 06-20-2013, 02:53   #223
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Originally Posted by sns3guppy View Post


The CWT is not fueled until trip fuel exceeds 230,000 lbs in the wings. Fuel below 3,000 lbs in the CWT (that's 450 gallons) is scavenged, usually into the No. 2 main tank. A flight doesn't simply take off with a "only a few hundred gallons" as extra in the CWT. The CWT can't have fuel until the wing tanks are full.

According to the investigation-
"the Center Wing Tank fuel quantity gauge was recovered and indicated 640 pounds instead of the 300 pounds that had been loaded into that tank"

Are you saying they were lying?
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Old 06-20-2013, 03:50   #224
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Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348 View Post
An aircraft fuel system is not just 'something mechanical', escpacially the fuel system on an airframe as large as a 747.
It's not mechanical?
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Old 06-20-2013, 03:57   #225
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People will believe what they want to believe. I think a lot of people who latch onto conspiracy theories are people who distrust the government and are falling for confirmation bias with implausible theories.
They also tend to have little technical knowledge of the subject and little ability to think critically.
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