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Old 06-20-2013, 04:00   #226
Jade Falcon
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Okay. I admit: I don't know a frickin thing about what actually happened. To be honest with you, I didn't even know TWA was still flying 747-100 series aircraft in the mid 90s.

Hell, I didn't know TWA was still in service, period! I thought they went out of business in the 80s or something.

Anyways, here's what I do know: I trust the Military Experts and Aircraft Experts on here FAR MORE than I trust some fat ass sitting in his basement, wearing his tin-foil hat, and listening to his police scanner. If those of you who were in the Military/flew aircraft/worked or served on a Cruiser tell me "it wasn't possible back then", then I believe you. You obviously have experience and know what you're talking about.

The rest of you need to shut the hell up. Just because your 5th cousin's boyfriend's sister's lesbian mother's cross-dressing aunt thought she saw a streak across the sky at a Lynyrd Skynyrd Concert while trumped up on Acid, does not mean she saw Flight 800 go down. So shush.
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Old 06-20-2013, 04:28   #227
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Okay. I admit: I don't know a frickin thing about what actually happened. To be honest with you, I didn't even know TWA was still flying 747-100 series aircraft in the mid 90s.

Hell, I didn't know TWA was still in service, period! I thought they went out of business in the 80s or something.

Anyways, here's what I do know: I trust the Military Experts and Aircraft Experts on here FAR MORE than I trust some fat ass sitting in his basement, wearing his tin-foil hat, and listening to his police scanner. If those of you who were in the Military/flew aircraft/worked or served on a Cruiser tell me "it wasn't possible back then", then I believe you. You obviously have experience and know what you're talking about.

The rest of you need to shut the hell up. Just because your 5th cousin's boyfriend's sister's lesbian mother's cross-dressing aunt thought she saw a streak across the sky at a Lynyrd Skynyrd Concert while trumped up on Acid, does not mean she saw Flight 800 go down. So shush.
Pretty much sums it all up.
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Old 06-20-2013, 05:07   #228
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One of the comments that was posted by a NTSB official that didn't get blocked was ["quote]We have an incoming hole, and an outgoing hole"
The Okie Corral

Good read.[/QUOTE]


May be a good read but a missle won't put a hole in and a hole out.

They explode before they hit showering the target with explosive shock wave and the shrapnel .
So they would have seen shrapnel damage coming in and taking out an engine then most likely the fuel in the wing that engine was on .
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Old 06-20-2013, 08:13   #229
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There is a book by an investigative journalist named Peter Lance that alleges that TWA 800 was an attack planned by Khalid Sheik Mohammed to coincide with the trial of Ramsey Yousef, who was in custody in the FDC in NY.

In the book, called "One Thousand Years for Revenge", it is alleged that Yousef told a fellow prisoner (a member of the mafia turned informant) that an airliner was going to be blown up to cause a mistrial in his case.

The book was interesting, and linked a number of attacks in the US going back to the assassination of Rabbi Meir Kahane up to the 2nd WTC attack.

However, much like Jayna Davis' book on the Iraqi connection to the OK City attack, it provides some interesting facts, but doesn't quite make the case (regarding Yousef and FLT 800).

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Old 06-20-2013, 08:35   #230
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I have a special interest in this flight. My wife was ticketed to be on this flight for a high school trip to France. Her group decided to go a month earlier instead and a high school group from Montoursville PA took their place.

No one took credit for any attack. Eye witness account in times of extreme stress are notoriously unreliable. If this was a test run, you'd think a group would have taken credit for it. There's no way to hide a fighter jet or navy ship shooting down the plane. The bottom line is we don't know why the plane blew up and some people would rather fill in details rather than just accept "we don't know" as an official answer. Did NTSB rules at the time allow the official reason to be unknown or did they have to put a reason to it?
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Old 06-20-2013, 08:40   #231
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You missed one possible explanation.

It was a terrorist bombing but there was not enough evidence to say it definitively. Plus with no group claiming it as one of theirs they had no choice but to try to find a fault with the plane.

There are things in life you will never be able to find a clear answer. If Zapruder had been a few feet right we would have best evidence.
This is kind of a big deal. If it had been a terrorist attack, whoever did it would run to the first camera he or she could find and yell that they were responsible.

If they don't then it kind of kills the point.
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Old 06-20-2013, 09:16   #232
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The bottom line is we don't know why the plane blew up and some people would rather fill in details rather than just accept "we don't know" as an official answer. Did NTSB rules at the time allow the official reason to be unknown or did they have to put a reason to it?
This is true, but why did they try saying it was the fuel tank rather than just admitting the cause was unknown? This morning I was watching a interview with one of the former NTSB investigators and he claims the FBI was in charge of the entire time the plane was be examined and they were not allowed to take pictures of the damage without FBI approval. He claims he was examining holes in the metal and went to take a picture for his report and man told him no pictures. When he ask who was and his authority the guy said FBI.

I think this whole thing is about lack of trust in the government considering recent things that have been revealed. My guess is the former inspectors though this was the perfect time to bring up the subject considering all the recent mistrust.
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Old 06-20-2013, 09:17   #233
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Are you implying that a missile taking off from a ship is quiet enough no one will hear it?
No, but my reply was to the comment that everyone on board would have "witnessed" a missile launch. "Hearing" some noise is not necessarily witnessing it.
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Old 06-20-2013, 09:57   #234
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How about a shark with a freaking laser beam on his head?


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You are not going to ask about the rims on a Cessna?

A laser beam would not like a trail of fire but perhaps a SHARKPAD?
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Old 06-20-2013, 10:20   #235
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How about a shark with a freaking laser beam on his head?


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The best you can do is mutated Sea Bass.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:00   #236
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You don't know that much about the 747, either.



That's not the climb profile of the 747. Typically for that aircraft it's 250 knots to 10,000', then at the departure weight for that flight, about 320 indicated. TWA 800 was low enough and slow enough to be hit, and the most obvious heat signature were the pack outlets...located directly adjacent to the center wing tank.



The CWT is not fueled until trip fuel exceeds 230,000 lbs in the wings. Fuel below 3,000 lbs in the CWT (that's 450 gallons) is scavenged, usually into the No. 2 main tank. A flight doesn't simply take off with a "only a few hundred gallons" as extra in the CWT. The CWT can't have fuel until the wing tanks are full.



I know the 747-100 was a very good flying, reliable aircraft that saw a lot of service. I know that because I flew it.



We haven't, nor have we seen any CWT issues, nor did anything turn up in the subsequent investigations and inspections of the CWT and FQIS (fuel quantity indication system) world wide, before, or after the event in question.
Interesting to have a 747 pilot with a different take.

I also find it interesting that a group of people who have no trouble talking about murpheys law when it comes to their sidearm and mechanical failure can't accept the possibility of mechanical failure when it comes to an aircraft.

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Old 06-20-2013, 11:13   #237
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Originally Posted by sns3guppy View Post
You don't know that much about the 747, either.



That's not the climb profile of the 747. Typically for that aircraft it's 250 knots to 10,000', then at the departure weight for that flight, about 320 indicated. TWA 800 was low enough and slow enough to be hit, and the most obvious heat signature were the pack outlets...located directly adjacent to the center wing tank.



The CWT is not fueled until trip fuel exceeds 230,000 lbs in the wings. Fuel below 3,000 lbs in the CWT (that's 450 gallons) is scavenged, usually into the No. 2 main tank. A flight doesn't simply take off with a "only a few hundred gallons" as extra in the CWT. The CWT can't have fuel until the wing tanks are full.



I know the 747-100 was a very good flying, reliable aircraft that saw a lot of service. I know that because I flew it.



We haven't, nor have we seen any CWT issues, nor did anything turn up in the subsequent investigations and inspections of the CWT and FQIS (fuel quantity indication system) world wide, before, or after the event in question.
How many times have you seen 747 engine fuse pins fail like they did on EL-AL 1862 in Amsterdam and cause a catastrophic accident like it did?

Just because it happened once doesn't mean it is not the cause of the crash.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:31   #238
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The rest of you need to shut the hell up. Just because your 5th cousin's boyfriend's sister's lesbian mother's cross-dressing aunt thought she saw a streak across the sky at a Lynyrd Skynyrd Concert while trumped up on Acid, does not mean she saw Flight 800 go down. So shush.
Sorry, but we are talking about experts refuting the official investigation conclusions. So it's not just a bunch of loonies talking about this.

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A handful of aviation experts, including a number of investigators who were part of the original probe of TWA Flight 800, have come forward in a new documentary to say evidence points to a missile as the cause of the crash off the coast of Long Island 17 years ago.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:32   #239
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Originally Posted by G23Gen4TX View Post
How many times have you seen 747 engine fuse pins fail like they did on EL-AL 1862 in Amsterdam and cause a catastrophic accident like it did?

Just because it happened once doesn't mean it is not the cause of the crash.
I'm reminded of how much Airbus fought to make the cause of a crash pilot error and not "our airplane's FMC killed these people." Or the fact that 8 million dollars worth of Bell helicopters money says uncommon dead flight control input can't happen when it's caused 2 crashes at Ft Rucker.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:36   #240
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"corroborating information from the radar data" and complained that "not one single eyewitness was allowed to testify -- that's unheard of."
So basically, the radar data confirms what eyewitnesses said. Hmmm.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:44   #241
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Sorry, but we are talking about experts refuting the official investigation conclusions. So it's not just a bunch of loonies talking about this.
Yes and several other experts have refuted their claims. You look hard enough and you'll find educated people that think the Earth is flat.

You know how many times "trained military" pilots flying cargo planes have reported surface to air missiles being shot at them in Afghanistan? Happens every month. You know how many confirmed surface to air missile launches have actually occurred in Afghanistan after the evaluation team has investigated... 3. 11 years of war, 3 confirmed missiles hundreds of reports.

All these "eye witness testimony" and other garbage is just fuel for the conspiracy. If you can get just one ******* with a title of some kind of expected credibility that's good enough to a tin foil whack job to say "see I told you!" Never mind the hundreds of the same titled and trained people saying that he's wrong. I read that retarded statement from the British airways pilot and laugh. I'm curious how many times that guy has actually seen ground fire. I can't even count the number of times the moon reflected on a body of water on the ground out the corner of my eye has made me think "oh **** tracers!" Only to stop and realize its an optical illusion, and I've been shot at.

I'm telling you flat out, this missile theory is a joke. The only kind of missiles that could have hit it and done that kind of damage weren't in the vicinity. The only US Navy combat vessels in the vicinity were subs, and they don't pack that kind of heat. No destroyer or cruiser was in a position to shoot down that flight so the conspiracy that it was kept quiet is crap. It never could have happened to keep quiet. And I'm basing that on the fact that its my job to know those weapons and their capabilities, not because I saw lights and sounds in the sky and made a damn guess.
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Old 06-20-2013, 12:04   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sns3guppy View Post
You don't know that much about the 747, either.



That's not the climb profile of the 747. Typically for that aircraft it's 250 knots to 10,000', then at the departure weight for that flight, about 320 indicated. TWA 800 was low enough and slow enough to be hit, and the most obvious heat signature were the pack outlets...located directly adjacent to the center wing tank.



The CWT is not fueled until trip fuel exceeds 230,000 lbs in the wings. Fuel below 3,000 lbs in the CWT (that's 450 gallons) is scavenged, usually into the No. 2 main tank. A flight doesn't simply take off with a "only a few hundred gallons" as extra in the CWT. The CWT can't have fuel until the wing tanks are full.



I know the 747-100 was a very good flying, reliable aircraft that saw a lot of service. I know that because I flew it.



We haven't, nor have we seen any CWT issues, nor did anything turn up in the subsequent investigations and inspections of the CWT and FQIS (fuel quantity indication system) world wide, before, or after the event in question.

No, you're right, I don't know a whole lot about the 747.


But I know a hell of alot about MANPADS. And at 13-16K ft and 320 KIAS, they were still safely out of the engagement envelope for any system available at that time.


Also, a pack outlet, is not hotter than your exhaust plume, there's not much chance of two big fat, close together turbines being bypassed to hit some avionics outlet vents by a first gen missile. They would fly right to the hottest spot. If they had been hit, it would have been more like the DHL flight.


Plus, we'd have a bunch of catastrophic, and fairly obvious damage patterns from a high energy weapon blast in close proximity to the airplane. Which were never found.
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Old 06-20-2013, 12:04   #243
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No, but my reply was to the comment that everyone on board would have "witnessed" a missile launch. "Hearing" some noise is not necessarily witnessing it.

You don't understand the process of firing a large missile off a ship. It would have been witnessed by a large group.
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Old 06-20-2013, 12:19   #244
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Rims?

When the 747 takes off, it retracts the landing gear.
Does this put the rims in proximity to the tank that exploded?

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Old 06-20-2013, 12:22   #245
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You don't understand the process of firing a large missile off a ship. It would have been witnessed by a large group.
And your reading comprehension isn't worth a f.

Again, my reply was to the following comment. In that comment is made a very definite, 100%, uncertainty that "would have to have been witnessed by at least 350 ...".

Tell me, is that an accurate proclamation? Didn't think so, it therefore helps me to more accurately judge the merits of any and all further information from that source. Full quote below.

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How does one "cover up" a ship-borne missile launch that would have to have been witnessed by at least 350 Navy crew-members, most of them 18 and 19 year old kids?

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Old 06-20-2013, 12:39   #246
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And your reading comprehension isn't worth a f.

Again, my reply was to the following comment. In that comment is made a very definite, 100%, uncertainty that "would have to have been witnessed by at least 350 ...".

Tell me, is that an accurate proclamation? Didn't think so, it therefore helps me to more accurately judge the merits of any and all further information from that source. Full quote below.
You ever been near a missile that big when it's launched... Everybody on the boat is gonna know what happened. Even in engineering spaces your going to hear it. Not to mention the klaxons and announcements that go off prior too it that are specific sounds for specific events to warn people to clear certain areas. Or the whole crew that was on watch suddenly seeing a big white thundering monster roar out of the deck.

Either way it doesn't matter, there wasn't a destroyer or cruiser in the area.
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Old 06-20-2013, 13:53   #247
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The problem, is that I am objective.


It wasn't a MANPAD, and the only system in the neighborhood that could have made that shot, was a USN Ticonderoga class Guided Missile Cruiser, and if she'd fired a missile that night, there would have been about 364 crew members who'd have known exactly what happened.

Six guys, out of how many investigators, came up with this, and they waited till they retired to spill the beans?


No, they're looking to cash in. If they'd really known something, they'd have quit their jobs and said it long ago.
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Old 06-20-2013, 14:58   #248
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I have said all along it was a missile, so have many eye witness

My MIL saw this and swears on her life there was a flame that caught up to the plane. Before it blew.
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Old 06-20-2013, 15:50   #249
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My MIL saw this and swears on her life there was a flame that caught up to the plane. Before it blew.
Missiles don't make a trail of flames. Gas leak does.
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Old 06-20-2013, 16:34   #250
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My MIL saw this and swears on her life there was a flame that caught up to the plane. Before it blew.
Last week a solar powered plane landed at Dulles Airport. People swear they saw a UFO. They played the recorded videos on the news. It was classic. One thing that was clear as day with the videos--- nobody saw the "same thing" yet they all were looking at the same thing. I don't find it even remotely odd that people have no clue what they are looking at and piece things together (differently) to try and make sense of what they are witnessing.
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