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Old 06-04-2013, 08:29   #26
Zer0
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Are you for any reason against working out more days, is 3 the maximum? If you've been doing that routine exactly for a while and he's not feeling it, then it's likely that he's sort of plateaued on that regiment. He needs to start varying the exercises and doing more for the muscle group.

More muscle = Higher calories out = More fat burning

I try to get in 5 or 6 workouts a week, usually about an hour(more if i have the time) and focus on doing chest and back for two workouts, arms and core for two, and legs for one and doing an extra full body set on the weekends if free. And of course you have to change it up every so often.

If you're wanting him to gain shoulder strength, I would do 3 or 4 sets of dumbbell overhead press, and before doing anything for chest/triceps/back, because those can all fatigue the shoulders, and working them fresh will allow more weight and endurance.

And agreeing with all above, the diet is big. More (lean and natural)protein and vegetables, filling up on those before the other stuff. Jack Lalanne had a fairly good diet plan, and he proved it worked quite well i'd say, although every body is different
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:20   #27
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You are a damn good parent to do this.

The 5x5 program is a good one for lifters looking to get stronger and build some size. From my personal experience (260 to 190, 1 pullup to 31, etc.) he may do well with a circuit style routine built off of the 5x5 foundation done 3 time a week.

Use the Big Three(Deadlift, Benchpress, Squat) or Big 5(Deadlift, Squat, Bench, Military Press, Underhand Chinup)

Set up with 3 or 5 stations, 1 per exercise with a weight you both can do for 12-15 reps.

Have one start 1 or 2 stations ahead of the other so you don't overlap.

Do each exercise for the target number of reps and immediately move to the next station and repeat. You can do for a set number of rounds say 5-8 or "Ye Olde AMRAP"(As Many Rounds As Possible in a set period of time).

This setup gives you continuous activity(very good cardio workout) and allows your body parts to recover between that exercise without time spent on rests(wasted time)

I reccommend dumbells for the bench portion as the bar gets mighty heavy and can turn into a staple pretty quick(more personal experience).

Again, way to go and best wishes for you and your son on this.
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Old 06-05-2013, 05:15   #28
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You are a damn good parent to do this.

The 5x5 program is a good one for lifters looking to get stronger and build some size. From my personal experience (260 to 190, 1 pullup to 31, etc.) he may do well with a circuit style routine built off of the 5x5 foundation done 3 time a week.

Use the Big Three(Deadlift, Benchpress, Squat) or Big 5(Deadlift, Squat, Bench, Military Press, Underhand Chinup)

Set up with 3 or 5 stations, 1 per exercise with a weight you both can do for 12-15 reps.

Have one start 1 or 2 stations ahead of the other so you don't overlap.

Do each exercise for the target number of reps and immediately move to the next station and repeat. You can do for a set number of rounds say 5-8 or "Ye Olde AMRAP"(As Many Rounds As Possible in a set period of time).

This setup gives you continuous activity(very good cardio workout) and allows your body parts to recover between that exercise without time spent on rests(wasted time)

I reccommend dumbells for the bench portion as the bar gets mighty heavy and can turn into a staple pretty quick(more personal experience).

Again, way to go and best wishes for you and your son on this.
I like this. It's simple. I want to stay on 3 days per week, otherwise household stuff gets behind. I need to read up on dead lifts and squat techniques. I don't want to risk injury.

Monday, we upped cardio to 15 minutes and only did incline press, military press, rows, lat pulldowns and 2 sets of barbell curls.

I want to eliminate the small exercises. I think it's a waste of time. He wants to look better before school starts back in mid August.
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Old 06-05-2013, 10:01   #29
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Originally Posted by Restless28 View Post
I like this. It's simple. I want to stay on 3 days per week, otherwise household stuff gets behind. I need to read up on dead lifts and squat techniques. I don't want to risk injury.
"Starting Strength" is where to start. A video camera is also very useful. After reading the book I thought I perfected my form... until I videoed myself.
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Old 06-05-2013, 10:40   #30
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Let me share one thing that took me forever to learn - there is no such thing as a perfect workout routine. As long as you don't overdo it or underdo it you will be fine.

Keep it simple. Three sets x 8 reps, or 5 x 5, or whatever. Don't believe the magazine articles where you do max weight, then drop down for a set of three, then stand on your head for a minute, then do something else nuts for a minute. If you need a calculator to figure out how much weight to use, you are overcomplicating it.

On Deadlift and Squats, don't try to kill yourself with mondo-high weights unless you plan to compete.

The latest trend (which seems to be holding) is each muscle group one time per week.
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Old 06-05-2013, 11:06   #31
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Restless, eliminate the *small* exercises like bicep curls.

Just do:

Squats
Deadlifts
Overhead press
Bench press
Pull downs or chinups.

Use the 'Starting Strength' book as a guide. For more info PM me.

Do those and then add some some cardio like running, biking, elliptical, or swimming for 20-30 minutes a day or every other day. When i went from 255 to 180 in 07 I got to where i would burn 1k calories in an hour on an elliptical. Then after my endurance was up I started running and never looked back.

Diet is like 70% of weightloss/toning. Calories in needs to be less than calories out, without protein intake per gram equal to at least his lean body mass(total weight-fat).

You could also add in some supplementary machine stuff and abs(captains chair is great), but those lifts listed above are key. Just make sure to get the form right. If you use machine lifts, you will miss the supplementary/supporting muscles that are needed for when he will eventually swap to freeweights.

To get him to be able to do pullups, have him follow this program.
http://www.lamarineofficerprograms.c...ng_Workout.pdf
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Old 06-05-2013, 11:19   #32
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The gym owner is using circuit training designed to work all those expensive machines he has (and you don't, so you have to keep paying for the gym membership). Definitely reverse the order ever other week, or even totally randomize it. This type of "whole body" work-out isn't necessarily bad for beginners who are really training their nervous system to perform exercise. A lot of the gains in strength you are seeing right now are due to nerologic adaptation and improvement in technique. But if you are using machines for everything (i.e., no free weights you actually pick up with your hands) you are not working out as efficiently as possible. This is fine if 90 minutes x 3/week is ok, but you can get the same better results with less time.

As you gain familiarization with the gym and how the machines work you will likely start grouping exercises based around muscle groups (arms one day, legs another) or motion (push one day, pull another) or even the crowd (legs the day the hotties are near that area, arms when another girl is in that area :P

A typical gym routine is working each muscle group 1-2 times a week. You are doing EVERYTHING each day, do I recommend splitting that list in half at the very least. Second, how many reps are you doing? Initially 8-10 per set (thus 24-30 per exercise) is what I would expect. After a few months of slow increasing of weights, try for 5-7 reps with that last one being 1 rep shy of failure. DO NOT WORK TO FAILURE! All you are doing is exhausting your nervous system and flirting with injury, even on machines. Watch the weight, it is tempting to jump up quickly early on because you SEEM to be stronger, but you are not. Your tendons and muscles have not properly adapted, just your nervous system is getting better at recruiting more muscle fibers. So jumping up in weight will lead to tendonitis and other injuries.

In general the type of gym exercising you are doing is ok for fitness and can develop some muscle, but it is prone to over-training, hitting a plateau, and boredom. Weight loss is 90% diet though, so make sure 90% of your focus is there (if the goal is weight loss).

And keep a journal/exercise log. Keeps you honest about your progress and will tell you when you have plateaued or started to over train.
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Old 06-05-2013, 18:06   #33
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Thank you all for the suggestions. I ruined my evening by stepping in some jackasses' was of gum on the way in tonight. I figured it was a sign and bugged out. I will return tomorrow and I want to use the simple workout of dead lift, squat, bench press, overhead press, and either pull downs or pull ups in conjunction with cardio.
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Old 06-05-2013, 18:18   #34
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Stepping in gum sucks.

OT: A good adage for a workout plan is "Big lifts make big results." Big meaning multiple joints moving lots of muscle with a large range of motion.

Big does not mean heavy weight. Lift what you can with good form everytime.

Curl-one joint, limited rom.
Chinup-several joints, large rom.
Leg extension-quads only, minimal recruitment of stabilizer muscles, fixed rom
Squat-full body with a major engagement of the posterior chain of muscles crom calves to rhomboids, natural large rom.
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:46   #35
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I want to get into strength training myself. I've always just used the old basic military PT training for keeping in shape: Push ups, tricep pushups, flutter kicks, pull ups, squats and lunges and I add in dumb bells and usually biking as running hurts too much. When I'm religious about it, I get in 45 minutes or so 3 days a week. I have fallen off the wagon for the last 6 months or so as I've just been really busy. I've never had a lot of wait to lose so I don't know how it would work for that.
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Old 06-06-2013, 15:01   #36
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DO NOT WORK TO FAILURE! All you are doing is exhausting your nervous system and flirting with injury, even on machines.
Untrue. To failure will not exhaust your nervous system; it will exhaust your muscles. Overtraining will exhaust your nervous system.
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Old 06-06-2013, 15:07   #37
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Old 06-06-2013, 17:56   #38
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Tomorrow is workout day. I want to follow the simple advice given.

I'm thinking squats, dead lifts, bench press, pull-ups for me, pull downs for him.

It's been awhile since I've done squats or dead lifts. Any tips? He has never done them, nor the machine free bench press.
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Old 06-06-2013, 18:05   #39
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It's been awhile since I've done squats or dead lifts. Any tips? He has never done them, nor the machine free bench press.
Several people have recommended Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe, and I will do so again. Seriously, if you aren't confident on how to perform squats and deadlifts (or any of the other lifts you intend to do), you need more guidance on how to coach the lifts than someone can type in a post. More specifically, if you can't answer the following questions, you need to do more research before getting started:
  • what's the proper depth for a squat?
  • where should the bar be placed on the back?
  • how should the knees move relative to the feet during a deadlift
  • what position should the lumbar spine be in at the start and all through a deadlift?
  • what's the proper bar path for a deadlift?
While I think squats and deadlifts are the best lifts for strength training, there is a serious potential for injury if done incorrectly. Starting Strength is very cheap, especially on Kindle, and extremely useful to learn the major lifts.

In any case, best of luck. I'm sure your son will look back fondly on you taking the time to spend with him to better yourselves.
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Old 06-06-2013, 18:14   #40
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Take the weight slow and work on form. Squat as deep as you can and do a full range of motion. bench press, keep the weight controlled. Start lower than you think you will need. You can always add weight if it is too easy.

Changed squat video, found a better one from the same people who do the deadlift video below.


The first 2-3 minutes so far are pretty decent on this deadlift video.

Last edited by silentpoet; 06-06-2013 at 18:18..
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Old 06-07-2013, 05:40   #41
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Remind me again of what you would suggest for a basic home gym too.

Kettlebells? What weights?

Bench? Dumbbells? Bar?

The gym we go to is small, and most days, the few benches are full, as are the squat racks. This relegates us to the cardio stuff of the machines. That's frustrating.
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Old 06-07-2013, 07:21   #42
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If you can get a pull-up bar at home then all you need is some space and a few kettlebells.

For an adult man, the usual recommended starting KB is the 35lb/16kg. This is heavy enough to give proper resistance for swings, clean and presses, KB squats, and turkish get-ups. I use "Enter the Kettlebell" and found it to be an excellent resource, though it is a bit poorly layed out with a lot of self-inflating hyperbole you have to wade through. KB swings are a GREAT exercise that can sorta duplicate the effects of the squat and deadlift. KB presses can replace the bench and dumbbell work. All you need is a pull-up bar and you are GTG.

For your son, a lighter KB in the 20-25 pound range might be better, depending on how big he actually is. If he is man sized, start with the 35 pounder. DO NOT try to snatch (look it up, it is the main KB exercise), that is an advanced exercise for when you are comfortable with handling the KB. Don't go cheap on the KB either. You need one that has a smooth handle that won't rip your hands (much) but is large enough for two hands. You don't have to drop hundreds on one, but some rusty garage sale find might not work either.

Anyway, eventually you will outgrow the 35 pounder. I think a good KB "stable" for a man is 35, 45, 53 pounds. With possibly a second 35 pounder for double swings. All in all, they are very economical and space efficient for the workouts they enable.
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Old 06-07-2013, 16:10   #43
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Get a good quality olympic bar and plates. I have a hampton at home and it is reasonably stout with good knurling, but any quality bar will be good. I also have a iron mind buffalo bar, but not used as much so it is a much later purchase if at all. A quality power rack. An adjustable bench. Dumbbell handles for standard plates and some plates for them. A cable/lat pull down set up and some variety of handles. Also a chin up/dip bar set up. I also have some grip stuff, you can start with spring clamps from a hardware store.
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Old 06-07-2013, 17:36   #44
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Kept it simple tonight.

3 sets each:

10 minutes treadmill
Machine incline press (my heaviest weight yet)
Machine row (also heavy)
Leg press (heavy)
Machine overhead press (heavy)
Crunch machine
Pull-ups

My son is also noticeably stronger. I'm for cutting out small movements. I also met an old friend tonight and had a good talk on food and the roid junkies that frequent the place.

I'm still thinking home gym in the future.
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Old 06-07-2013, 17:48   #45
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Cardio (long/slow) does not equal weight loss.
I must've gotten very lucky then. I lost fifty pounds in 12 weeks doing nothing but running / walking. I'm no sprinter either. It took me 52-60 minutes to do six miles. I'd run for a minute and then walk for a minute.
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Old 06-09-2013, 04:15   #46
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As of today, my son has lost 11 pounds. I can see the difference and he is getting stronger. I think his confidence is increasing now too.

I'm holding steady at 155, but I'm close to benching my body weight now on the incline. My frame likes 155, I suppose. I'm pretty lean, but I can do better.

So, we are going to increase cardio time and events, and do simple movements. I think if he builds muscle while losing weight, that he will look better.
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Old 06-09-2013, 10:18   #47
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kettle bell cardio workout. Great way to build some real world strength and cardio.


Posted using outdoor hub campfire
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Old 06-09-2013, 10:45   #48
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As some of you know, I've made it a mission to help my overweight son lose weight while I workout alongside him.

We're on a 3 day a week routine from the gym owner.

5 minutes cardio
3 sets leg curls
3 sets leg extensions
3 sets leg press
3 sets calf raises
3 sets bicep curls
3 sets tricep extensions
3 sets rows
3 sets lat pulldowns
3 sets incline press
3 sets rear overhead press
3 sets machine crunches
5 minutes cardio cool down

We've gotten stronger, but his endurance fades on the shoulder and overhead presses. I think it's too many movements and it takes 1.5 hours even if we push hard.

Because of his weight issue, I think he needs more cardio, and maybe split up the movements between 3 days. He's also getting a bit bored and "not feeling it" by the end.

Any suggestions?
This would be good for shaping up, but if weight loss is your goal, I would do 1.5 hours of cardio three times per week and the workout you described two days per week. I developed heart trouble 4 years ago and the doctor said I had to lose weight or I would need bypass surgery. I started riding a bicycle outdoors three days per week and lifting weights two days. I lost 55 pounds and kept it off. I ride outdoors because stationary bicycles hurt my back after twenty minutes. On stationary bicycles you stay in the same position. Riding outside, you're constantly shifting positions so it puts less strain on the back and gives a better whole body workout. Bicycle riding doesn't do much for your core, chest, back, or biceps. That's why I lift weights.

As for the routine, If you choose to ride a bicycle for the cardio, you can drop the leg exercises because the legs will get all the workout they can take. If you choose not to ride, 1.5 hours on the rowing machine would work. Of course, you won't be able to do that initially. It may take a year to get there. My problem with indoor cardio is that it's monotonous and I easily lose interest.

When lifting weights I avoid eccentric exercises like the rear overhead press. That's not the way your joints are designed to move and can cause damage. I don't do any overhead presses because I have impingement in both shoulders from lifting heavy things over my head too long. A gym owner's goal is to get you to come to the gym. Most of them are young men who haven't torn up their bodies by lifting too much for too long. The gyms I attended did more harm to my body than good.
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Old 06-09-2013, 11:10   #49
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Cardio (long/slow) does not equal weight loss. Decrease the duration and increase the intensity. Do intervals. Do burpees.
Weight loss has to do with heart rate. Doing long slow exercises burns fat. Short burst of intense exercise burns all the sugar and you have to rest until the body can break down some fat into sugar before doing another exercise. That's why you do intervals.

Short intense bursts are good for bulking up, but maximum fat burn happens at 80% of your maximum heart rate. Keeping your heart rate at 80% for 1.5 hours will burn more fat than getting the heart rate to max then letting it drop back to normal until your body can convert some more fat to sugar.

I've seen many fat competitive weight lifters. I have never seen a fat competitive bicycle rider. Something like cardio kick boxing would work as well and increase flexibility.
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Old 06-09-2013, 11:23   #50
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Remind me again of what you would suggest for a basic home gym too.

Kettlebells? What weights?

Bench? Dumbbells? Bar?

The gym we go to is small, and most days, the few benches are full, as are the squat racks. This relegates us to the cardio stuff of the machines. That's frustrating.
Use free weights. Preferably dumbbells and a low bench so you will be able to lay the weights down rather than dropping them or hurting yourself by trying to lay them down gently by getting into an unnatural position when you're exhausted.

I avoid machines because they restrict your movement. The human body isn't designed to exercise on a machine. It's designed to run, use tools and weapons, carry food and essential supplies, and do other things necessary to survive in the wild. You're less likely to hurt yourself if you stick to moving the way your body is designed to move.
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